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I might sit this army out. I usually buy roughly 750-1k points for small games, but I'm not sure if I want to with this army.

Something about them says they will be a dark horse. Something else though tells me the Phil Kelly was high when writing this.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:

On topic: Why do people think it's obvious that GW is leaving the door open to get rid of allies in 7th edition by saying in 6th edition books that things can't ally. By your logic, GW's ploy is to get people to buy multiple armies. So wouldn't it make more sense to let people ally CSMs and Daemons, then simply remove the ally rules in the 7th edition rulebook? That way they can be that money-grubbing, greedy, capitalist company that we all know Gamesworkshop to be (that was sarcasm, by the way). Why would the codices need the rules to disallow allies when, according to you, allies won't be allowed at all in the next rule set, all the while saying GW is trying to get all our moneyz? And to scream "it makes no sense!!" before you even have the codex in your hand is equally silly. Unless, of course, you speak fluent German.

Yeah, I'm with you, I don't see it as GW trying to squash allies. More than likely, they are trying to squash abusing the allies system. I personally don't see a problem with CSM not being able to join/lead a CD unit and vice versa. Its more to do with the army synergy then power-gaming the system. CSM offer small units of durable, ranged firepower to CD's frail but very large and extremely hard hitting assault units. Its similar to how IG work well with loyal marines, IG bring the cheap bullet stoppers and objective squaters, while Marines provide the elite hitting power.

Only, with marines, you can add your IC to blobs of guardsmen, to give them rules that should really only be applied to elite units (ATSKNF and feel no pain, for instance)

But for chaos, we can't add our elite guy's (Chaos) to our cheap hordes (Daemons)

 Sephyr wrote:
Another Allied question:

Any chance CD bringing Divination to CSM lists will result in more people using the Hades Autocannon on the Helldrake instead of the blaeflamer? Four twin-linked S8 shots at BS 3 is not bad at all in dealing with enemy flyers, if you can keep your drake in range to get the blessing.

The ease of access to Divination is really pretty awesome. Toss Prescience at Seekers for huge numbers of rerolls, or Noise Marines for the same, or even just Oblits for twin-linked Assault Cannon/Lascannon/Multimelta action. I can see how Horrors would benefit from that, too, but they're almost a secondary consideration in this case.

 blood reaper wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

Help if your invul gets taken away for some reason...

Which will probably also taken away, being that most weapons are AP5, and even at negative AP it's a 1 in 6 chance.

Can someone remind me why Daemons have the survival rate of a Grot?

Last I checked grots don't have ++ saves, or are strength 5 on the charge with AP 3 weapons, or have rending, or can get 2+ cover saves...

 Janthkin wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
Another Allied question:

Any chance CD bringing Divination to CSM lists will result in more people using the Hades Autocannon on the Helldrake instead of the blaeflamer? Four twin-linked S8 shots at BS 3 is not bad at all in dealing with enemy flyers, if you can keep your drake in range to get the blessing.

The ease of access to Divination is really pretty awesome. Toss Prescience at Seekers for huge numbers of rerolls, or Noise Marines for the same, or even just Oblits for twin-linked Assault Cannon/Lascannon/Multimelta action. I can see how Horrors would benefit from that, too, but they're almost a secondary consideration in this case.

Picking nits, but you can get permanent Prescience on Seekers with a Herald for 30 pts and no Psychic tests.

I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

Even if the codex is garbage, I am still going to continue with my love of all things chaos. Man, it's just too fun to paint daemons to just let em go. And the troops are some of the cheapest models to buy, so there's that too. I need me some nurgling swarms next.

 airmang wrote:
I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

Hot damn! Looks like Necrons just lost their monopoly on tank busting...

 airmang wrote:
I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

God I hope this is true. And more, if it's also for beasts of nurgle.

So much happy if this is true

But ill find out tomorrow when i buy the book from my local store

GOT THE BOOK TODAY, it seems solid, I love all the hate and stuff i have read through 66 pages.. before the book even came out or any serious game play of the army could be given as evidence. how much is hater and how much is from solid tourney winning, smart players. I wonder.

Reading through the book, it looks solid. Some thing got hit/nerfed hard, but some things are just "woah".

So Daemons got nerfed, no more point and click. Big woop, IMHO its now like playing chess instead of checkers. And if you look close and find the right combinations its pro-level chess. this book is far from bottom tier. Its pretty solid.

The one thing i just dont understand is the bloodcrushers. I can see the T being reduced ( i guess). But 6+ save? No better armor save on these behemoths? And Why 6+, when will you ever use it? They still have the Daemon special rule giving em a 5++. but i thought for sure juggies would still have a 3+

(and yes plague swords glance armor on a 6)

Anyone read the Fantasy book yet? How big is the nerf for Daemons there?

Evileyes wrote:

 airmang wrote:
I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

God I hope this is true. And more, if it's also for beasts of nurgle.

So much happy if this is true

But ill find out tomorrow when i buy the book from my local store

Its true. Its an effect on all nurgle melee swords. Beasts dont get it.

Tsilber wrote:

The one thing i just dont understand is the bloodcrushers. I can see the T being reduced ( i guess). But 6+ save? No better armor save on these behemoths? And Why 6+, when will you ever use it? They still have the Daemon special rule giving em a 5++. but i thought for sure juggies would still have a 3+

Wait... dont tell me GW was to lazy to print a different entry/statline from the entry they put in the fantasy book? LOL, i usually dont indulge in GW hate.. but thats Fookin lazy...

Makes sense in fantasy cause you get boosts from armor and mounts, right?

Yeah, it should be +2 for mounted. Should be 4+5++ effectively I believe.

Some Khorne Daemons have a 6+ Armour save because you can reduce a Daemons Invulnerable Save to '-' with the Grimoire of True Names and the result on the Warp Storm Chart.

This book is FILLED with "need a FAQ" stuff because RAW is very vague in parts (e.g. the -1 Ld for Psykers within 12" of a Fiend could be interpreted as stacking). Which might make them useful, as right now they are pretty garbage.

Only Plagueswords get the Touch of Rust (glance on 6) rule.

The Problem with this book its that Deamons are supposed to be dangerous and mighty, beings from another dimension.

The last dex was partialy right in that, even if it was dull.

The new dex offers new things, new rules etc, but it still wants to be an "semi-elite" army that wants to become a horde army.

its a codex that in short, doesn't know what he want to be when he gets grown up.

And having ELITE units with a 6+ save for 45pts, thats the cherry on the cake of WTF...

GW wanted to prevent some of the brokeness of 4th Ed dex?

They made it worse...12pts Slaanesh cavalery with flank and acute sense that runs +3"?...

In the previous dex a unit of 10 of them was allready an hassle, and they where like 20pts a piece, but now?, they are so dirt cheap, that people think of taking them by droves !!

And once again they failed to make a decent balance for the 4 factions, the problem is that in essence they have to design 4 armies in one book, but the last time that something like this worked was in 3th Ed...

And so Tzeentch end up with giving other armies free FnP, Khorne give free Killpoints with models so frail that if a grot sneeze at it, they die, and for the price of a TH/SS Termi.

I'm definatly disgusted to play them as an army, and i'm not even sure that i will take them has allies, because points spent on them, are less points spent on my CSM, wich for the moment does pretty good, even though i play a themed WE army...

I really need some HARDCORE testing, and serious thoughs about this, but i'm not sold on them...

I usually am of the optimistic kind, but right now...

TzeentchNet wrote:
This book is FILLED with "need a FAQ" stuff because RAW is very vague in parts (e.g. the -1 Ld for Psykers within 12" of a Fiend could be interpreted as stacking). Which might make them useful, as right now they are pretty garbage.

Only Plagueswords get the Touch of Rust (glance on 6) rule.

It does count as stacking. in the Dark eldar book for example: It says while within 12" of 1 or more Grisly trophies (or torment grenade launchers).. anyway it says while within 12" of 1 or more. In this book it does not. Now im not saying GW might of messed it up, but rules as read is not vague. It is what it is... eat it psykers.

(It says BTW: any psyker within 12" of A fiend of slaanesh have -1 penalty to leadership... if you are within 12" of 5... You have -5 leadership when taking the psy test, doens't seem vague as written)

Oh, for some hilarious brokenness check out Kairo's Staff of Tomorrow. As written you can force your opponent to reroll a single die and prevent other rerolls from Twin-Linked and Preferred Enemy

Note: And that forced reroll can be for a result that was a success

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
The Problem with this book its that Deamons are supposed to be dangerous and mighty, beings from another dimension.

The last dex was partialy right in that, even if it was dull.

The new dex offers new things, new rules etc, but it still wants to be an "semi-elite" army that wants to become a horde army.

its a codex that in short, doesn't know what he want to be when he gets grown up.

And having ELITE units with a 6+ save for 45pts, thats the cherry on the cake of WTF...

GW wanted to prevent some of the brokeness of 4th Ed dex?

They made it worse...12pts Slaanesh cavalery with flank and acute sense that runs +3"?...

In the previous dex a unit of 10 of them was allready an hassle, and they where like 20pts a piece, but now?, they are so dirt cheap, that people think of taking them by droves !!

And once again they failed to make a decent balance for the 4 factions, the problem is that in essence they have to design 4 armies in one book, but the last time that something like this worked was in 3th Ed...

And so Tzeentch end up with giving other armies free FnP, Khorne give free Killpoints with models so frail that if a grot sneeze at it, they die, and for the price of a TH/SS Termi.

I'm definatly disgusted to play them as an army, and i'm not even sure that i will take them has allies, because points spent on them, are less points spent on my CSM, wich for the moment does pretty good, even though i play a themed WE army...

I really need some HARDCORE testing, and serious thoughs about this, but i'm not sold on them...

I usually am of the optimistic kind, but right now...

Im not sure if you are giving the book props or hating on it. You said tzeench is terrible because it gives a FNP, but then say seekers are over powered.

but on those 2 comments i have to humbly disagree...

FNP from Tzeench is rare and even if the unit does get it. its on a 6+. Have at it.

The Seekers outflanking with acute senses is far from the most broken thing in this book... they have rending going for them. Other then that what are they gonna do, blow on you?. Plus they wont even get in combat until at best turn 3. Good luck being effective in any tourney. I guess playing a 6 turn game they will have their bonus. But if you are playing against them, put your durable units on the egde, a flamer on over watch. A few tanks.. Shoot the be-jeezus out of their T3 steeds once they show up.

The Book is still solid and scary... again it just came out. No one has played this army well enough, no "suggestive list", no cookie cutter. So its natural for people to just hate on it. But its not terrible, far from it. Its still scary and pretty powerful IMHO.

One quick note: seeker of Slaanesh get +6 to their run roll.

 airmang wrote:
I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

Edit : strange double post


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsilber wrote:
The Seekers outflanking with acute senses is far from the most broken thing in this book... they have rending going for them. Other then that what are they gonna do, blow on you?. Plus they wont even get in combat until at best turn 3. Good luck being effective in any tourney. I guess playing a 6 turn game they will have their bonus. But if you are playing against them, put your durable units on the egde, a flamer on over watch. A few tanks.. Shoot the be-jeezus out of their T3 steeds once they show up.

I've been doing a lot of comparing seekers to daemonettes.
- Seekers are 33% more expensive.
- They are not troops.
- They have one extra attack.
- They can move -much- faster. (Daemonettes are going ~13.5" a turn, Seekers are going ~22.5") That's awesome for objective holding.
- They have a much bigger footprint as their bases are much larger.
So with a unit of 20 seekers your looking at 240 points. That's not bad for 20 models! You run them up the sides of the board so you can threaten anything you want to on turn 2. If they get shot to bits, just run the remainders back to deny the KP.

Tsilber wrote:
The Book is still solid and scary... again it just came out. No one has played this army well enough, no "suggestive list", no cookie cutter.

True. There might be another 'helldrake' hidden somewhere that we don't see yet. Only time will tell.

My inital thoughts are that slaanesh and nurgle got the most love. Horror spam lists might be good, but I'm worried their a one trick pony. Either way Ill have to expand my daemon army to match these new rules -- something GW was likely hoping for.

Tsilber wrote:


FNP from Tzeench is rare and even if the unit does get it. its on a 6+. Have at it. .

Yeah, excepte that this is stacking...

Turn 1-2 shoot a unit of Marines, they pass their test gets FnP 6+, shoot with another unit on them, they pass it a second time, oh look, because we allready had FnP, we get +1 on the roll!, do this several times, Oh look!!! a FNP2+ Marine squad...

it will be rare,yes i know, but i've allready seen guys exploding Reaver titans with a melta and making all the rolls needed to destroy all the Structure points and make an Cataclismic explosion..., so its a scenario that i'm not putting behind, because i know that it will happen.

Again, stupidest rule i've ever seen...

Being a CC army and having your best CC troops, at least those that are dedicated to it, only have 1A?, common sens?, nope not found here.

And there is so much more that just screams of desperation in this book that i can bairly(bearly?) look at it, without having the same feeling of pity that Signourey Weaver had for her clone in Alien Ressurection...

I will need some heavy convincing( or money) to play this has a full fledged army, and even has allies i'm not sure.

And here i though Zerkers where worse, but man, this is just taking it to a whole new level...

The stacking Feel no pain is solid i guess, i see your point on that... but 6d6 shots from the horror unit and 6d6 shots from the herald in the unit. Well you should wipe units prior to them getting to much of a feel no pain.

As for playing it as a full army, well thats your opinion and you are certainly entitles to it.

Ill for one, look forward to the combos this book is begging people to figure out and use tactfully. (is tactfully even a word? )

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I will need some heavy convincing( or money) to play this has a full fledged army, and even has allies i'm not sure.

And here i though Zerkers where worse, but man, this is just taking it to a whole new level...

Sorry to hear that. I'll be happy to take your daemons off your hands for 20% retail plus shipping.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Turn 1-2 shoot a unit of Marines, they pass their test gets FnP 6+, shoot with another unit on them, they pass it a second time, oh look, because we allready had FnP, we get +1 on the roll!, do this several times, Oh look!!! a FNP2+ Marine squad....

On a more serious note, you need to focus fire. 20 horrors plus herald will kill ~4.6 MEQ. Focus two horror squads onto one MEQ squad and you can put them out of your mind. It takes multiple turns to get a higher FNP, so just focus fire.

Grrr. Why can I not buy the book on itunes yet?

Are they really going to make me wait until midnight in my timezone to purchase this?

Very annoying.

Switched from preorder to "new release" on GW website.

Its past midnight in jolly o' England