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DeathReaper wrote:
Right, the Charge move locks it in CC.

So Either

1) Once the initial charger makes base contact it is locked in combat and no other model from the unit can move, since now the unit cant move and Cant trumps Must.

Or

2) They make the charge move as normal because they are not locked in CC until the fight sub-phase.

Or

3) Once the charging unit has completed their required charge moves they are locked in combat until the CC is resolved.

I am going with option 3 because it actually makes sense. By your logic no charges could ever be made because the charging unit must remain in coherency, and if they charge more than 2" and have to stop then there is no way to complete a charge. Your problem is you are taking the sentence out of context. They are setting up first who is defined as being locked in combat (a unit with one or more models in base contact with an enemy) and second which of those models in the unit that is locked in combat can fight. There is no rule written that defines at what point the unit becomes "locked in combat" but the context of both rules tells us the answer. All models in the unit must complete the charge move, and once completed the unit is locked in combat. Can't only trumps must if they conflict, and any conflict is manufactured and not actually present in the rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

So Either

1) Once the initial charger makes base contact it is locked in combat and no other model from the unit can move, since now the unit cant move and Cant trumps Must.

Or

2) They make the charge move as normal because they are not locked in CC until the fight sub-phase.

Your trying to skip a whole section of rules to justify that argument, namely charge moves. When you go to fire the overwatch, you check to see if your locked in CC. Being in BTB is locked in combat.

 Cheexsta wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) Once the initial charger makes base contact it is locked in combat and no other model from the unit can move, since now the unit cant move and Cant trumps Must.

Page reference for this? I can't see anything to suggest that a model can't charge if his unit is already locked in combat. The closest I can find is p20, which says that a unit can't declare a charge if the unit is already locked, but by the time the unit is locked the charge has already begun so this doesn't change anything.

Page 23 under Who can fight.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move..."

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) Once the initial charger makes base contact it is locked in combat and no other model from the unit can move, since now the unit cant move and Cant trumps Must.

Page reference for this? I can't see anything to suggest that a model can't charge if his unit is already locked in combat. The closest I can find is p20, which says that a unit can't declare a charge if the unit is already locked, but by the time the unit is locked the charge has already begun so this doesn't change anything.

Page 23 under Who can fight.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move..."

Which comes after the charge move is completed for the entire unit being moved. The rules for the charge move must be completed before you can specify other rules interrupting it.

Basically you declare a charge, overwatch, rolle charge, and move. After that is completed if they are in base to base they are locked. Next charge is declared and so on and so forth.

If you charge and do not make it into base contact then the unit is not locked. If you did not overwatch you may then overwatch another charging unit trying to get into base to base contact with you.

Locked in combat is defined in the sub phase but referenced throughout and it does not state it can only happen in the fight subphase. A unit as a whole is determined if it is locked or not. Once you start moving this cannot change and interrupt the movement until the movement is completed. Since the only way to get into combat and be locked is through a charge or by being charge we must check at the movement phase for the unit. Individual models are not taken but the unit here. Once one model hits base to base we must complete the movement taking place because the rules specify this. We cannot end movement out pf coherency.

Check before charge for being locked
Check after charge forbbeing locked
This is done for each charge declared in order
This is not at the same time but is a part of the same sub phase.

rogueeyes wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) Once the initial charger makes base contact it is locked in combat and no other model from the unit can move, since now the unit cant move and Cant trumps Must.

Page reference for this? I can't see anything to suggest that a model can't charge if his unit is already locked in combat. The closest I can find is p20, which says that a unit can't declare a charge if the unit is already locked, but by the time the unit is locked the charge has already begun so this doesn't change anything.

Page 23 under Who can fight.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move..."

Which comes after the charge move is completed for the entire unit being moved. The rules for the charge move must be completed before you can specify other rules interrupting it.

Page reference?

Like I said either 1) they are not locked until the Fight sub-phase so you may Overwatch at any one assaulting unit, or 2) they are locked as soon as the initial charger makes base contact as Can't Trumps Must.

I am inclined to say that 2 is not true, and 1 is true.

A charge move is made by the Unit. The entire Unit charges.. not individual models. So when your moving that Initial charger, your just performing one step of the entire unit charging. You do not pick up all 20 models and move them simultaneously(which is actually what would be happening). The charge move explicitly states that it moves the Unit into BTB. Pg 21. "All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move......... with the exception they can be moved to within 1" of an enemy. Note this is stated Before the moving of any models. The initial charger subsection determines if the charge will be successful ( with overwatch, terrain, etc..).

Once the Unit successfully charges (moves into BTB) then they and the enemy unit are locked in combat (pg 23.)

 ToBeWilly wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they are still restricted to 1 overwatch a turn.

I do not believe the embarked unit is restricted to only firing once. Page 21, "Also note that a unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn."

Please note the underlined part. An embarked unit is never the unit being charged, the vehicle is.

So therefore, they cannot overwatch in the first place, as they are not being charged.

They can blood lance, pg 80.

Ok, just two knit-picky notes.
1) Transports allow embarked units to overwatch out of fireports. Open topped vehicles do not have fireports. This could mean, you cannot over-watch at all, as you don't have fire ports. If you read open topped, it says all embarked models may shoot normally. Now if you think that applies to overwatch, then lets take a look at normal shooting, which is my 2nd point.

2) Shooting sequence on page 12 says each unit may only shoot once.

Overwatch on page 21 says it works like normal shooting (except in the assault phase), and following the normal shooting rules, each unit may only fire once.


You're welcome.

-Matt

 blood lance wrote:

 ToBeWilly wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they are still restricted to 1 overwatch a turn.

I do not believe the embarked unit is restricted to only firing once. Page 21, "Also note that a unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn."

Please note the underlined part. An embarked unit is never the unit being charged, the vehicle is.

So therefore, they cannot overwatch in the first place, as they are not being charged.

Transport vehicles make an exception to that. You should read the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Ok, just two knit-picky notes.
1) Transports allow embarked units to overwatch out of fireports. Open topped vehicles do not have fireports.

Open topped vehicles do have a fire point. It's the same reason Arynkar (spelled wrong, sorry) can't use MITM from inside his CCB.

 blood lance wrote:

 ToBeWilly wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they are still restricted to 1 overwatch a turn.

I do not believe the embarked unit is restricted to only firing once. Page 21, "Also note that a unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn."

Please note the underlined part. An embarked unit is never the unit being charged, the vehicle is.

So therefore, they cannot overwatch in the first place, as they are not being charged.

As others have already stated; permission is given in the vehicle transport rules, page 80.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Ok, just two knit-picky notes.
1) Transports allow embarked units to overwatch out of fireports. Open topped vehicles do not have fireports. This could mean, you cannot over-watch at all, as you don't have fire ports. If you read open topped, it says all embarked models may shoot normally. Now if you think that applies to overwatch, then lets take a look at normal shooting, which is my 2nd point.

2) Shooting sequence on page 12 says each unit may only shoot once.

Overwatch on page 21 says it works like normal shooting (except in the assault phase), and following the normal shooting rules, each unit may only fire once.


You're welcome.

-Matt

We have a winner.

 CT GAMER wrote:
We have a winner.

I disagree as I stated - his first statement is false, which means any conclusions drawn from it are incorrect.

Miscelaneous question: if a vehicle is being charged (ex: a rhino with storm bolter), and the firing arc of the weapon is pointed at the enemy unit, can the vehicle also fire overwatch?

Fisher001 wrote:
Miscelaneous question: if a vehicle is being charged (ex: a rhino with storm bolter), and the firing arc of the weapon is pointed at the enemy unit, can the vehicle also fire overwatch?

No, vehicles (except walkers) cannot overwatch.

So on page 13 of the BRB, under Snap Shots, it clearly says that, "...Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those with special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots."

So, to answer the original question, No. Overwatch shots are all Snap Shots and since Burnas are template weapons, you would not be able to use them for Overwatch. So unless I've missed some FAQ or something, or there is some house rule you guys are talking about, I'd say the answer is fairly clear. Though I may have missed the point of the ongoing discussion.

 NakedSeamus wrote:
So on page 13 of the BRB, under Snap Shots, it clearly says that, "...Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those with special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots."

So, to answer the original question, No. Overwatch shots are all Snap Shots and since Burnas are template weapons, you would not be able to use them for Overwatch. So unless I've missed some FAQ or something, or there is some house rule you guys are talking about, I'd say the answer is fairly clear. Though I may have missed the point of the ongoing discussion.

Page 52, Wall of Death.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 NakedSeamus wrote:
So on page 13 of the BRB, under Snap Shots, it clearly says that, "...Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those with special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots."

So, to answer the original question, No. Overwatch shots are all Snap Shots and since Burnas are template weapons, you would not be able to use them for Overwatch. So unless I've missed some FAQ or something, or there is some house rule you guys are talking about, I'd say the answer is fairly clear. Though I may have missed the point of the ongoing discussion.

Page 52, Wall of Death.

Ah, thank you for clearing up my ignorance

It happens. 400 some odd pages of rules, certain things are bound to be missed.