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I dont know if its been discussed before, but whats the general concensus on 3d printers. Frankly I think they are amazing-and that is exactly why the manufacturing conglomorates will lobby to have them made illegal/restricted to the public. They spend more money per year than the RIAA and MPAA put together. I cant see them letting something that can copy items like a 3d printer can exist mainstream. It will be like the movie and music piracy which hunts we have going on now. But that isnt what I wanted to talk about...


Do you think, in mainstream gaming circles, given a few more years to reduce cost and expand where and how this can be done, it would be the death kneel of model table top gaming. Say in 5 years jimmy wants to build a deathwing army. But jimmy dosent have 100 dollars for 5 terminators, let alone 30 termies (dont pretend you cant see them being that expensive in the future) But for 100 dollars in materials and time, he can go down to his local equivilent of kinkos (assuming these kinds of places are allowed to exist) and copy 30 terminators worth of parts so he can model and put them together.

Now I dont know how accurate mass produced machines would be, the best detail ones now are less than a human hairs difference in original to copy. I just dont see this as being a good thing for tabletop.

OR do you feel this may be a boon to the overall health of the game. Say GW could in 5 years time with this technology cut their product cost by 50 or even 75 precent cost (highly doubtful they would get this good a return) Could then we see a renisance of people getting back into the games as overall investment drops 30 precent or more? Possibly bringing in a larger group of people now that its competativley priced with say what an average person spends on videogames.

There must be thoughts on this on a great website like this.

1. I think we are years away from it being a real issue. The price point is still quite high on what is at this time a novelty technology as far as the general public is concerned. Yes there are good uses for it, yes I want to see the tech grow. Look at things like CD players. They were out for years before people caught on well enough to lower the price on them. Same with DVDs, Blu-Rays, CD-Rs etc.

CD-R recording systems available in 1990 were similar to the washing machine-sized Meridian CD Publisher, based on the two-piece rack mount Yamaha PDS audio recorder costing $35,000, not including the required external ECC circuitry for data encoding, SCSI hard drive subsystem, and MS-DOS control computer

from Wikipedia. 35k+ starting costs. It was down to 1k by 1995, and now you can get combo burner drives for CD-R and DVD-Rs for $17. So I'll just wait out the 20 years for the tech to become that cheap, which will only happen if there is some massive market for it like there was for CD's.

2. Piracy. People always seem to assume that resin printing = piracy. Now, of course it will happen. There is no stopping that. No matter how hard you make it, some IT geek out there will crack it. Sure, you could sue people for it. The problem that corporations face there is this: 70% of males in the USA between ages 18-49 pirate SOMETHING online. Music, video, games, software. Something. The government can't very well incarcerate 70% of the men that make up 63.9% of the workforce in the country.

3. This has been discussed at length here already.

I'm all for the tech(at least the idea of it) but it is far from optimal, especially when it comes to producing the kind of detail we expect in our hobby. I can think of thousands of other uses for it in my own life though.

When both resin printers and 3D scanners are sufficiently effective, cheap and easy to use then yes, mini/games companies will need to think really hard about how they operate.

It's still way off.

Technology like that will become cheaper much quicker if there's a common household use. I can't immediately see what the majority of the public would need a 3D printer for, but on the other hand somebody once said that about even owning a computer in the home and look where we are now.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Technology like that will become cheaper much quicker if there's a common household use. I can't immediately see what the majority of the public would need a 3D printer for, but on the other hand somebody once said that about even owning a computer in the home and look where we are now.

I want you to imagine they get the technology to where the material can be near steel strength (right now with hardening agents its equivilent to fiberglass, which is tough enough to be hammer handles)

Now imagine you have this at home, and access to the internet. Then you go to the website 3dblueprints.com (made up) a website where people that have scanned in designes can store them. You lost a screw to your lawn mower wheel, so you get the pattern without needing to scan it, and make it. Oops its a hex head, you dont have a hex head screwdriver, so you print one. Oh a piece of the old screw is stuck in there, so you print a drill head that can extract broken screws.

Say you want to make something for your daughters birthday, mabye a fancy jewelry box. So you download a nice one you find, and play with the computer program 3dchange (also made up) that lets you modify patterns much like photoshop. You pick the paint colors for each section, being as detailed as making a fake wood look to it. Custom care in a gift is a great thing, especially if your not mechanically inclined.

Frankly I have a harder time trying to figure out what I COULDNT use it for.

We have this thread every week. Nope. 3d printers won't be mainstream enough for the prices to get reasonable until they can make sandwiches.

I have fibreglass at home it's horrible stuff.

Seriously though unless 3d printing gets somewhere near to the star trek "give me a làtte, 89C in a blue cup", joe average punter ain't gonna want it. That also requires a cashless society I believe.

As it stands even if the current technology is refined to the point where it makes models a bit cheaper there will be a small pick up as who wants the hassle of owning and setting the damn thing up and waiting for it to produce your model.

Will you want fibreglass hard models, prolly not. So there may be multiple materials for different applications. If its any thing like paper printers the consumable cost and constant replenishing of supplies is a pain in the arse unless you can use one at work or knick work supplies.

All in all 3d printing sounds a right pain in the arse, instant (or online near instant) gratification is where it's at.

TLDR : 3D printing, the cheap-arse hobbiests wet dream where money is saved for complication.

OH MAH GAAAWWWD! I love you peeps. Talkin' 3D printers and stuff.

Heres a fun one, go visit you tube, search for 'LEGO 3D printer' (yes, as in those awesome blocks you played with as kids.) You'll find more than a few examples. If they can do it with LEGOs, the technology is here, as in right now, not 'in the future we will fly on jetpacks!', no now. As an oppinion, I have always held that human culture is not insufficient to the task of creating new technologies, but is rather defunct at implementation of those technologies. I think in our heart of hearts we're still paranoid of advancement primates, unwilling to ferociously embrace our own progress like it was witch craft or something. That's all oppinion. Let's just use this to get everyone up to speed.

So as notprop started to get at it with the Star Trek angle, 3D printers are a primitive (keyword there) inception to a 'replicator', in the same way you could liken a 3D television to a primitive holographic display. These two different products by just being on the market will produce revenue for the research required over say another 50 years to make the next generation of technology that is closer to these currently fantastical dream technologies. It's also important to note that a 3D printer/replicator rich culture does not rely on the preexistence of a cashless society, but rather is the advancement that allows for said cashless society to exist. I think that's what he meant, but it's clearer now.

Lord_blackfang says they will not be mainstream enough, to which he means not initially. A sewing machine wasn't mainstream either, they started industrial size or in large banks at factories. The personal machine idea took awhile to catch on. When we start to have factories that use 3D printers, as they retool facilities and replace machines with newer models, a trickledown effect occurs to smaller industries. Which then trickle down to average joes as generation after generation of machines are produced and antiquate/devalue the older ones. Eventually your neighbor bob buys one for his home remodeling business, and common creativity leads to you borrowing his for a new molding in your bathroom, as do your other neighbors, who all then decide they want smaller ones in their garage for convenience sake. Which generates demand, which produces product, and the great business system is complete.

But to answer the gaming industry question, It's alot easier than you might think. A company like Games Workshop would sell you blocks of raw plastic in various sizes to print your models on. It will be some special formula they recommend just the way they recommend their own paints and brushes now. To go with this block you may receive a code to redeem online as a discount toward that years version of your models design, which would be copyrighted, and abandoned to piracy after six months, in time for the new 'official' design release all over the internet. Other companies will sell plastic or resin or whatever 'blank blocks' at lower prices and 'unofficial' designs for your use of course. The accurate move is to not prevent the piracy, but to make it inconsequential. And to not try and sell 10 players on $1,000 each, but to sell 100 players on a $100 each. You all know how much you can make off a $1 ringtone? Or Application for a smartphone? Exactly!

The next thing to keep up will be a huge stride in recycling technology, to keep up with the cost of the demand for material 'blanks'.

I LOVE TECHNOLOGY!!!!

 Scott-S6 wrote:
When both resin printers and 3D scanners are sufficiently effective, cheap and easy to use then yes, mini/games companies will need to think really hard about how they operate.

It's still way off.

Just like how publishers must worry about home printers that can print all of the words in their books, or mechanics need to worry about home tools sets because people can fix their own cars, and artists need to worry about people who can buy their own paints and canvasses.

This isn't different than any other medium changing because of advancing technology, a direct comparison is the ability for anyone to scan a book and reprint it on a home printer or the ability to scan or redistribute PDFs or music. People didn't stop buying music after Napster, they spent more money between physical sales and digital sales even though they could get the same thing for free...

Orock wrote:

Now imagine you have this at home, and access to the internet. Then you go to the website 3dblueprints.com (made up) a website where people that have scanned in designes can store them. You lost a screw to your lawn mower wheel, so you get the pattern without needing to scan it, and make it. Oops its a hex head, you dont have a hex head screwdriver, so you print one. Oh a piece of the old screw is stuck in there, so you print a drill head that can extract broken screws.

No. You would be a fool if you used a printed bolt on your lawn mower. A lot more engineering goes into mechanical parts than what you are describing. Parts are more than a shape, there is internal material structure and how materials are engineered and even how they are tempered. Screws are more than a shape, they are highly refined and engineered metals with explicit properties to give them immense strength. Home printers 3d are never going to solve that type of solution. There is almost no reasonable use for home printers as they will still be grossly more expensive compared to just going to the store and buying the part. 3D printers are not replicators.

Look at 'regular' printers. Oh the home printer will put kinkos out of business... the very thing people cite as 'I can go to kinkos and print my free GW models'. Home printers are garbage. They are inferior, sloppy, expensive to maintain and we still have a need for advanced expensive printers who crush the output of home printers, and for valid reason. Home printers are a stopgap, and not a replacement for professional printing. Even with 3D printers, you will never get the quality of their more industrial grade counterparts out of home printers. Actually, more and more people are moving past PRINTERS to the point where they don't even own one. I haven't owned a printer for 10 years and I have even less need for paper now. Notice how the printing industry has basically not bothered to invest in 'home printing' and making it cheaper and better. No one wants it.

And the 'wet dream' also is based upon rampant IP infringement because people don't want to go print out non GW models, they want GW models in the GW universe with GW sculpts.

One word Ceramics. Ude be suprised at what ull find. Btw i dont mead that stuff you use to make pots.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We have this thread every week. Nope. 3d printers won't be mainstream enough for the prices to get reasonable until they can make sandwiches.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/08/3d-printed-meat/
here you go!

As someone who owns a $1500 home 3D printer, its a cool toy, but not good enough for anything much useful.
1) The resolution currently sucks. This could be fixed.
2) The speed currently sucks. This is a much bigger issue, as you need the lower layers to harden/cure/whatever before you print layers above it. Not a huge deal, but it does set an limit on the speed at which you can possibly produce anything. This will probably be slower than the time it takes to go to the shops and buy one.
3) Materials. Currently for a home printer, the most expensive part is the ink. If 3D printers are ever going to be ubiquitous in the home, the same thing will probably happen with printer materials. However, in 3D printing, you will require a multitude of different materials, in a multitude of different colours. It would be infeasible for most people to stock any sufficient level of materials to be able to print 'anything' on demand, because of the price and space needed.

More than that, I simply don't think most people will need a printer of their own sufficiently often to warrant it. There is the occasional 'I need a spare part' scenario, but most often when you want something (especially in multiples) it will be easier, cheaper and quicker to head down to the shops and get one. If the things you are after are truly unique, then there will be a market for on-demand 3D printing that can house the large, high-quality, high-speed printers and all the materials required: its a service that could be offered by hardware stores, spare parts stores, even Walmart or such. But at home? Too much hassle.

nkelsch wrote:

Orock wrote:

Now imagine you have this at home, and access to the internet. Then you go to the website 3dblueprints.com (made up) a website where people that have scanned in designes can store them. You lost a screw to your lawn mower wheel, so you get the pattern without needing to scan it, and make it. Oops its a hex head, you dont have a hex head screwdriver, so you print one. Oh a piece of the old screw is stuck in there, so you print a drill head that can extract broken screws.

No. You would be a fool if you used a printed bolt on your lawn mower. A lot more engineering goes into mechanical parts than what you are describing. Parts are more than a shape, there is internal material structure and how materials are engineered and even how they are tempered. Screws are more than a shape, they are highly refined and engineered metals with explicit properties to give them immense strength. Home printers 3d are never going to solve that type of solution. There is almost no reasonable use for home printers as they will still be grossly more expensive compared to just going to the store and buying the part. 3D printers are not replicators.

Look at 'regular' printers. Oh the home printer will put kinkos out of business... the very thing people cite as 'I can go to kinkos and print my free GW models'. Home printers are garbage. They are inferior, sloppy, expensive to maintain and we still have a need for advanced expensive printers who crush the output of home printers, and for valid reason. Home printers are a stopgap, and not a replacement for professional printing. Even with 3D printers, you will never get the quality of their more industrial grade counterparts out of home printers. Actually, more and more people are moving past PRINTERS to the point where they don't even own one. I haven't owned a printer for 10 years and I have even less need for paper now. Notice how the printing industry has basically not bothered to invest in 'home printing' and making it cheaper and better. No one wants it.

And the 'wet dream' also is based upon rampant IP infringement because people don't want to go print out non GW models, they want GW models in the GW universe with GW sculpts.

They were originally invented with the INTENT to replace things like screws and tools at the space stations. If you needed a certain part that you dident have, or a tool for a job you dident stock on the station, earth emails you the plan from a scan on the sruface, you print up say a hammer for example, use it, and then it was designed to break down and recycle the material for next time. But they never got to that stage. And the only thing holding it back from being as good as machined screws is the limited technology for hardness. That will be improved on in the future. You would be a fool to believe this could never even in 20 or 30 years match a precision milled screw in strength or accuracy.

And I wasent suggesting relatively cheap home printers. There are places you can go now (although very few) for money that you can use their printers, top quality ones. Its not cheap sure, but the point is the technology is there, just like when everything comes out. Hell I remember when a terrabyte harddrive was 4 250 gig harddrives slaved together in a big box and it cost ya 1000 dollars. Now how much do they run? Or when CD burners first came out. Now the technology is commonplace less than 10 years later.

I seriously think you are underestimating how fast in our lives something like this can go from science fiction to science fact to elites only own one to as common as the computer printer.

There aren't many people that would need a 3d printer in their house. It seems possible that GW could replace their manufacturing and distribution systems with a 3d printers at retail locations and have on demand manufacturing. With no warehouse and inventory I predict that the full line of bits would return. Additionally they could license their designs for like 99 cents to print a space marine or whatever. A drm like 3d model format seems like a no brainer.

Under over on when we'll have the, "Will the hologram replace the physical model," discussion? 2032?

I had not thought of on demand bits printing at GW stores. That is brilliant.

That would still require printing to be higher resolution than it currently is, but it also opens up tons of possibilities for GW.

UNDER BRO! I'm putting my faith for the hologram thing at 2025. At least for discussion.

We have been looking at 3d printers at work for use in proto-types, this is a good use for them as you do not need the setup of mass production.

As a way of making models (and mass production) it is still way too expensive, but the technology is there, the accuracy on current printers can easily match any plastic space marine. As many have mentioned it is easier and cheaper to buy from a shop.

Until it is cheaper (ink and setup costs) then it will not be a worry, at the moment someone has to program the printer to print the desired component, but as mentioned who knows it maybe as simple as downloading a song or scanning a photo in the future, and as with other technology it can become a household thing, until that day, its off to my local GW store.

As the technology evolves, miniature companies will also have to evolve in order to stay relavent. One possible future scenario could be a miniature company that sells yearly subscriptions to it's 3D renders for home printing. Revenue will likely be much lower, but overhead would also be incredibly low. A miniature company with this type of business model need not manufacture models of it's own, store stock in warehouses, employ labor to oversee production or logistics. They can continue to have their own stores, but instead of selling models, they can operate as gaming clubs and offer tables and terrain, and run tournaments/campaigns to players who pay membership dues. I suppose they could still sell hobby supplies such as paint and tools in their stores as well.

 helium42 wrote:
As the technology evolves, miniature companies will also have to evolve in order to stay relavent. One possible future scenario could be a miniature company that sells yearly subscriptions to it's 3D renders for home printing. Revenue will likely be much lower, but overhead would also be incredibly low. A miniature company with this type of business model need not manufacture models of it's own, store stock in warehouses, employ labor to oversee production or logistics. They can continue to have their own stores, but instead of selling models, they can operate as gaming clubs and offer tables and terrain, and run tournaments/campaigns to players who pay membership dues. I suppose they could still sell hobby supplies such as paint and tools in their stores as well.

By then everybody on this forum will have died of old age.

Orock wrote:


OR do you feel this may be a boon to the overall health of the game. Say GW could in 5 years time with this technology cut their product cost by 50 or even 75 precent cost (highly doubtful they would get this good a return) Could then we see a renisance of people getting back into the games as overall investment drops 30 precent or more? Possibly bringing in a larger group of people now that its competativley priced with say what an average person spends on videogames.

There must be thoughts on this on a great website like this.

Most likely GW will start using 3D printing if they can find a way to balance the new lower cost against a high enough quality. What you shouldn't expect however, is for them to pass the saving onto the customer. If history (Ahem Failcast) has taught us anything its that GW love to take the p**s.

For those that don't know I'll solidify my point - the production costs for finecast are cheaper than the old metal models. GW charge more for finecast...... It's like the funniest joke in the world that no one gets but feel pressured to laugh at anyway. Expect the same behaviour over 3D printing.

Why take a risk and develop cost saving measures if not to reap the benefit? Not peculiar to GW and hardly taking the piss.

3D printing also does not orifice better results than either traditional casting or injection plastics.

I see it less likely to hurt GW than to provide them with an excellent business opportunity, by passing almost all the production cost onto you, the consumer.

Think of it this way, with 3D printing (if it becomes cheap and effective) you buy the manufacturing tools, you buy the resin/plastic/foam/etc raw materials.

Now all GW has to do is produce a single set of sprues, create a digital representation of the sprue, and then charge you a premium in order to be able to download and 3d-print the sprue on the 3d printer you bought and you bought the 'ink' for.

eBooks work on the same principle, but is the cost of an eBook significantly cheaper than a paperback? of course not, why would any company sell a product that costs less to make for a cheaper price if people are willing to pay the same as what it was before production cost went down (and despite the double servings of whine and cheese that the internet has for GWs prices, we all know that the majority of people would still pay the prices they charged). Example in point, GW Digital Codeci, same price as a regular book, much cheaper to produce (as the eBook version never has to go to print).


THere are probably GW accountants out there rubbing their hands watching a countdown timer that announces when 3D printing becomes cheap and effective...

 Leigen_Zero wrote:
I see it less likely to hurt GW than to provide them with an excellent business opportunity, by passing almost all the production cost onto you, the consumer.

Think of it this way, with 3D printing (if it becomes cheap and effective) you buy the manufacturing tools, you buy the resin/plastic/foam/etc raw materials.

Now all GW has to do is produce a single set of sprues, create a digital representation of the sprue, and then charge you a premium in order to be able to download and 3d-print the sprue on the 3d printer you bought and you bought the 'ink' for.

eBooks work on the same principle, but is the cost of an eBook significantly cheaper than a paperback? of course not, why would any company sell a product that costs less to make for a cheaper price if people are willing to pay the same as what it was before production cost went down (and despite the double servings of whine and cheese that the internet has for GWs prices, we all know that the majority of people would still pay the prices they charged). Example in point, GW Digital Codeci, same price as a regular book, much cheaper to produce (as the eBook version never has to go to print).


THere are probably GW accountants out there rubbing their hands watching a countdown timer that announces when 3D printing becomes cheap and effective...

Yes but the difference being if gw really does continue to charge the same or more for a product that costs them far less to produce now, the general gamer will be able to fight back and make their own without giving them a dime. People were also sick of the music industry back in the day, charging full price for say 3 songs on a cd. Black markets wouldnt exist if you could get the genuine article for a reasonable price. People would buy from movie studios directly if they could get a movie on DVD or blueray for 3 dollars a piece, but the studios never dropped the price after switching from the much more expensive vhs format. And now that it IS possible to get something else, they cry foul that nobody is buying their overpriced crap and try and buy the government to make it illegal. If a guy in the back of a van can produce them and make a profit from 3 dollars a movie, so could they. Yes he has FAR less overhead since he is just supporting himself and not a network of people and studios, but lets not pretend they couldnt drop movies to say 10 dollars per and still make a profit. Anyone that tells you otherwise is misinformed or part of the system that dosent want anything to change.

The world is changing dramatically, information, one of the foremost comodities, is now available to a great many at little effort and cost. Game companies need to jump on an alternative program BEFORE the tech becomes mainstream, or risk becoming the movie and record and newspaper companies, struggling to survive in a world where men arent going to put up with bloated business practices anymore.

Some interesting point of views here...

Here are my thoughts,

First things first, 3D printing is coming and will be mainstream, I'd say within 10 years, MAX. You'll probably see your first mass scale produced 3D printed bits a whole lot sooner. A few areas will expedite it. Educators and academia will use them in making models, and prototypes, driving down the price. Remember, the internet was launched first by academia. Alongside academia, you'll see the medical field using them for custom made medical appliances, this will drive down prices big time. You can already buy 3D printing kits for about 1000-2000 USD, about what you would have expected to pay for first generation DVD players or VCRs after accounting for inflation, and way less than folks paid for first generation computers, even with inflation. Currently, the limitations are that you can't use parts from a 3D Printer for say a jet engine (yet), but it would be very handy for a wide variety of household items, plumbing parts especially, which routinely need to be customized. Most industries will shift to making things which the 3D printer can't, but that won't last very long.

So, yes, 3D printing will be a big change to our hobby, and even our way of life. It's going to be here within 5-10 years easy, long before flying cars, warp engines, Captain Picard and "cashless economies." It might sound gee wiz, but what would your great great grandparents say to you watching movies at the house? However, it might be to the hobby's detriment if a stable marketing strategy doesn't develop to account for this emerging technology. Piracy will happen as long as industry try and fight the internet. If the machine takes a code to make something, which it does, people will have codes for shoulder pads, combi parts for free. That is, unless GW learns lessons that the music industry didn't learn. Trying to outlaw the machines will be a colossal failure on their part, that I'd kinda want to see just so I can laugh at it. So if GW still wants to be profitable, they'll likely have to make peace with the new technology, or suffer the consequences.

What does an average household need a 3D printer for? Mass producing lawn gnomes?

Custom plastic forks for birthday parties?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
What does an average household need a 3D printer for? Mass producing lawn gnomes?

How about something simple, like a tool your missing. Or something more complex, mabye a decorative planter. My drawer handle is missing, I could make a copy, its just a plastic nob anyway. Mabye I feel artsey, and go on the internet and find some awesome gargoyle statues that with a program used I can transfer to my machine and make bookends with them. What If I decide a small garbage can would be neat for another room. I probably wouldnt eat off of them now, but if they make the stuff non toxic, what about plates that you custom designed. Unless your gonna tell me innovations following this would never think of these things. Not a website to host patterns, or a simple photoshop like program to change existing things and make custom things. Then I would just open your mind and think bigger.

How about a single hubcap that flew off during a highway trip? It can even be painted for you. Small airtight canisters, not that you couldnt buy them cheaper, but its an option. Mabye a small soapdish that was made from glass I just dropped. Or how about a replacement key for my keyboard. I lost my 7. Dont ask how.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
What does an average household need a 3D printer for?

People said the same thing about computers 20-30 years ago. Just because the technology has a limited scope of use now doesn't mean that it won't evolve into something with broader appeal later.

Computers started as databases and calculators. That was the REASON they were invented. Now computers serve millions of different functions and are completely commonplace. Same with cell phones, which are now hybrids with computers.

One cannot look at the current use of a technology in order to predict it's future applications. What is a resin 3d printer now could end up being a full on organic substance replicator years from now for all we know.

Arguably technology could advance to the point where people stock pure elements and have a "printer" assemble those elements into whatever they wanted. Clearly we are quite far from such an advancement, but it's not an unreasonable prediction given enough time.

Look at how fast technology has grown in the last 120 years. Now extrapolate that from where we are now into another 120 years. The potential is massive.

On the same token, however, you cannot assume that 3D printers are destined for ubiquity in the same way computers were. The technology may simply never 'click' with the common man.

No. If you know anything about 3d printing you would know that 1. it cannot produce as smooth results as injection molding and 2. such machines that are capable of coming close are out of the price range of the household and will remain so for an extended period.