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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
OK time to get this thread back on topic. I know some people were interested in trying Hellhounds, and I tried some today and decided to see how they worked in a foot IG list. I probably could've written a better list, but I was running late and just threw them into another list I had laying around. I ended up gutting my HWS's and my stormtroopers, which are two of my mainstay units, so the hellhound had some big shoes to fill.

The list if you're interested.

Spoiler:

CCS: Plasma, standard

CCS: Plasma, standard

Marbo

1st Infantry platoon:
*HWS: x3 lascannon

*PIS 1: Melta, Autocannon
*PIS 2: Melta, Autocannon
*PIS 3: Melta, Autocannon
*PIS 4: Melta, Autocannon

*PCS: x2 flamer

2nd Infantry platoon:
*PIS 1: Melta, Autocannon
*PIS 2: Melta, Autocannon
*PIS 3: Melta, Autocannon

*PCS: x2 Flamer

Hellhound: Hull multi melta

Hellhound: Hull Multi melta

Hellhound: Hull Multi Melta

Leman Russ Battle tank: Hull lascannon

Leman Russ Battle tank: Hull lascannon

Leman Russ Exterminator: Hull lascannon, bolter sponsons

I ran 3 with multimeltas in an 1850 list, and all I can say is holy crap is that overkill against necrons. Delicious, delicious overkill. They also did exactly what I wanted them to do, move up, tie up the enemy, kill key targets, and provide an agressive counterattack to eat up the enemy's shooting. And that was with me playing them wrong for the first half of the game (I thought they could only move 6" and fire template and snap fire the multi melta. Turns out you can move 12" and fire both at normal BS. They got MUCH better after that) As a heads up, I do not know much about necrons, but I eeked out a pretty solid win on Big guns never tire, holding 2 objectives to his one. Had the game gone on another turn, I could've cleared off his surviving warriors and claimed a 3rd objective for a more solid win, but that's dice for you. Here's what the Hellhounds accomplished:

Hellhound Number 1: Moved up, harrassed some immortals with a lord (it was his warlord, T5. That's all I remember. he had some scary scythe too) It didn't kill much, but managed to slow down that unit severely, making it reach my lines turn 4, instead of turn 2. While it didn't kill much, it showed how disruptive one could be if placed well. I have to admit, it probably helped me win the game, as delaying that unit saved my support units and allowed me more time to whittle them down.

Hellhound Number 2: The underachiever, he didn't do much. Managed to run up, eat a lot of shooting, get a couple of flimsy shots on the immortal unit, and killed a guy. It proceeded to be glanced to death by warriors turn 3. Not sure if it was the tank's fault, bad rolling, or just me, it was just kinda meh.

Hellhound Number 3: One of the MVP's of the game, this one showed just how nasty these bad boys can be. Turn 1 it rushed up the right side of the board. Turn 2, it lined up a good shot on this walker thing the necron guy had (all i know is it shot a twinlinked lascannon that, if it hit, would allow other units to twin link as well) Hellhound pulls up, easily in melta range, fires, and explodes it in one shot. Turn 3, it races across the board and proceeds to unload on a unit of warriors holding an objective in the back. It killed all but 3 over a couple of turns before they managed to glance it to death, and that wasn't till turn 5. Had I rolled a little better, it could've easily cleared that objective and continued it's rampage.

Thing I learned though was that 3 hellhounds is just way too much. If I continue running these, I would probably run at most 2, and a devil dog or two as well. That way, you can be more flexible, and be able to handle more threats. I'm torn between putting a multimelta on the devil dog (to turn it into a real tank hunter) or throw a heavy flamer on as a backup plan incase I fight another horde army or need to clear an objective. I guess if I already have 2 hellhounds though, it wouldn't be a big deal putting the multimelta on. The multimelta worked great on the hellhound, and made it a lot more flexible. Plus, the way the inferno cannon works, you'll almost never use a normal flamer anyways, so may as well take a weapon you can use on a regular basis. It also did a great job of killing IC wound soakers so the inferno cannon could kill off the weaker scrubs behind him.

These tanks definitely have potential, but they're very reliant on your meta. Each one is designed with a different role, so choose the one that matters most to you. I'll be trying the devil dog next time I get to play, and will probably keep running 2 hellhounds for a while as well. They're a lot of fun, people don't expect them, and they're a cool and unique unit. Plus, they're not $80, so if you need some good fast attack that won't break the bank, they might be the right choice for you. They can also score on The scouring, if that matters.

Son, you just won us the war.

Necrons are THE hot army in 6th, and if you are saying that hellhounds smashed through necrons (as a tank no less), we may have a very interesting pick for those FA slots.

Now, how did the Leman Russes treat you in this game?

Well, smashed through aint the best way to put it, but I definitely think they made a difference. They eat through warriors like no tomorrow, and their mobility took a lot of heat off my russes surprisingly. My russes were only shot at by warriors for example once, and that was because he airdropped in an entire squad next to it. The rest of the time, they were too busy trying to kill Hellhound Number 3. His other anti armor tried to shoot the russes, but usually died before it could do much. The hellhound killed the walker thing easily, and my lascannon HWS sniped his annihilation barge turn1 (that's the one that has the S9 AP 2 template if it doesn't move right) Had my army not killed the skimmer right away though, the hellhound would have been in the perfect spot to take it down.

As for the Russes, they did what they always do, kill everything in sight, and generally eat shots and provide that rock hard core that a foot horde needs. The leman russes did great, although the exterminator I'm on the fence. There are moments where it really, REALLY messes up whatever it shoots at. It ate half a warrior squad in a single salvo for example, and really messed up a close combat squad as it came across the board at me (some sort of jump infantry with +3 invulns). Other times though, it's pretty lackluster, and only puts down a few wounds. To be fair though, I haven't fought a true transport spam army with it yet, and that's what it's really made to fight. The fact that it's holding it's own against army types it was never really designed to fight gives me hope though. Plus, it fills an important role in my army as a MC killer, and whenever it gets pitted against one, I find myself very glad I keep it around. I'd rather take it as a commissar tank with the "Crack Shot" skill in an allied battlegroup though. For a measly 20 more points, that tank gives all infantry within 6" LD 10, and all weapons get +1 on the pen roll against vehicles. It makes that tank death incarnate.

Incidentally, I played in a small local tournament today (only 10 people total), and my list also had a couple Hellhounds, because I hadn't tried them in 6th. The list follows:



The idea behind this list is that I wanted to see if I could make an army that had a big hammer to just smash part of the opposing army to pieces. I also wanted to try a "reliable" army, with units that dealt large numbers of attacks/shots or automatically hit or got re-rolls. Anyway, I'm not going to go into a full out battle report here, but I usually had the Demolisher, Hellhounds, and Vets or Ogryns grouped together (depending on enemy army), and punched forward with melta/flamer/demolisher death. Because my scoring units were low, they tended to hang out in cover near objectives. I tended to find that with the rushing contingent, there wasn't a lot of heat coming toward my troops. This may have been a mistake by my opponents, but often they just couldn't see the squads thanks to the wall of armor. Below is a list of a few things I learned:

-Multimeltas on Hellhounds are great, both because multimeltas on a fast, tough platform is great, and having two weapons that scare opponents is great. The 12" move and the 12" flatout really let them break through into the backfield it a neat way. Against a Deathwing player, I had one with a busted Multimelta run 24" through to his backfield to start taking Inferno Cannon shots against the rear armor of a Contemptor Dreadnaught. This maneuverability can also be used pretty well to get the right enemy models closest to your tank. Also, laying the IC template across muliple squads and vehicles, while firing a Multimelta at a vehicle is freakin' great. They are just loaded with teeth, it starts adding up, but I would almost consider putting a hunter-killer to make use of their speed for anti-vehicle work (more on this later).

-Bolter Boat Exterminators vs. Terminators are great. Two armies I faced had 15+ terminators, and the Exterminators were like sandblasters. They team up with Hellhounds and Demolishers in a great way, because the templates put a bunch of wounds on a squad, and the Exterminators clean it up. They don't care about invulnerable saves, or cover, or Eternal Warrior, they just pour on the wounds.

-Ogryn are absurdly durable when a character can lead them. I used them in a Chimera, but I'm convinced they would bring a lot on foot leading a Foot Guard advance. In two games they soaked a lot of fire and then tied up terminators for several turns (eventually losing to one, winning against the other). In one game, they took multiple direct hits from an Executioner and then claimed two kill points the next turn by destroying a vehicle with shooting and assaulting it's passengers. They weren't lucky, it's just so many wounds packed into a small space.

-Missile/Plasma PISs are solid fire support. A few missiles with a steady stream of Bring it Down! supporting the Exterminators really starts to grind down the opponents medium armor. Because of the lists I faced, ACs would have been better, since it was largely anti-vehicle work, but I felt good having the S8 in my back pocket that was mostly lacking from my vehicles.

-Mech Vets are great on the attack. When the enemy is getting rushed by Hellhounds and a Demolisher, the meltavets following up had a pretty free hand to pick targets and destroy them. The 18" total move of the Chimera really lets them get into a dangerous position, and also makes Linebreaker so much easier to claim.

-For all the Terminators I faced, the Demolisher really got the most usage as a vehicle buster. There's so many invulnerables out there these days, but vehicles lost a point of cove save, and it's super hard to miss Land Raiders with that cannon.

-All in all I was a little afraid to hit the table without either artillery or Stormtroopers. I like having units that can reach out and put firepower on target when I need it to. I was relying on durability and localized brute force to punch through to deny objectives. It worked, and it was pretty enjoyable, but I'm not sure it would work against a broader range of armies. I played against Guard and lots of Terminators, and felt like I had good matchups against all my opponents. I've been playing a lot of infantry lately, and this was my first vehicle heavy list of 6th. I really enjoyed the vehicle rules. Hull points let my Exterminators grind down enemy armor, but having the Meltaguns and Multimemeltas still gave me a puncher's chance at one-shotting Land Raiders. On the receiving end, the Russes just kept putting out the punishment every turn until succumbing to damage. Having so much rushing firepower really protected my Troops and left them relatively safe to do their job.

Moustaffa, I think your experience with a hellhound is like mine with the colossus. When they work well, they work very well, but when they don't they're horrid. For example, in my last game, it showed up, did virtually nothing, was killed right away, and gave my opponent a VP (scouring). Like the colossus, it has a certain niche that it does really well, but for everything else... well, it's just an AV12 vehicle.

Put another way, your game sounds like this one except with hellhounds instead.

In the end, I almost question if this isn't the time for the otherwise wretched eradicator. I'm finding myself prizing AV14 more and more over time. The AV12, especially in a list with little else of it is just too flimsy.

As for the exterminator, it seems like the same kind of thing as the hellhound or the colossus. It's good at a lot, but it's REALLY good against transports. If you're not playing a lot of mech, then it might make you second guess if its the right vehicle for you.

Well what's wierd is normally I AM fighting a ton of mech. A lot of the armies field nothing BUT metal boxes. And of course, what happens the one day i want to try hellhounds out? Infantry army with one flyer, a skimmer, and a walker. That said though, I think one thing about them is you really can't run just one. They're like russes, one will just get focused down, but 3 can provide a serious threat, and either spread out to force the enemy to split his fire, or group up to break a hard point. Next time I'll be using a devil dog and two Hellhounds, all with multimeltas, and i think this will do much better.

What I found funny about them was that i fully expected them to die. Their job is get in the enemy lines and kill as much as possible. They did their job admirably. Even the one that "failed" drew a lot fire and slowed down the enemy. And that was with me playing them at literally half potential for the first half of the game. I can't wait to see their potential at full effectiveness.

Granted, there's still a lot of testing to do with them before I hammer out if they're "worth it" or not. I've literaly only played one game with them so far, so it's not like I've got a ton of experience with them. But man, having a multimelta and a 20" flamethrower is awesome They really work like they do in the fluff now, they're fast attack in the most literal way possible.

Do you believe that two would suffice, or is three really required?

 Happygrunt wrote:
Do you believe that two would suffice, or is three really required?

Not sure yet. My army has little AV12, so i take 3 for saturation. If you're runnings lots of AV12 though this wont be as big a deal.

And Ailaros, I don't think an eradicator really fits the same role a hellhound/devil dog/banewolf fills. An eradicator isn't fast, an eradicator can't take a hull mounted multimelta, an eradicator cant get in the enemy's deployment turn 1, etc. A russ and a hellhound (I'm just going to use this name as a broad term for all 3 for now) are made for different roles. A russ, even an eradicator, is designed to stick with your infantry and provide fire support. They anchor your army and take the hits. A hellhound that isn't moving is a dead one (as number 3 found out today in my game) They can't afford to sit in your deployment and wait patiently, as they're just an expensive chimera at that point. Their only defence is a good offense. They need to press the attack, get in between the enemy, sneak into the deployment area, and harass support units and objective sitters. Think of them as a tank equivalent to stormtroopers. Yes they're pretty much dead no matter what, but they can reliably get damage where you need it and do it quickly. Or at least, that's what they seem capable of (like I said, needs testing)

Honestly, what else do we have that fills it's role? Vendettas may hunt tanks better at range, but they'll have trouble cracking landraiders and other AV 14 like monoliths. A hell hound with a multimelta or a devil dog can get in close and really hammer it with a melta hit. We have other stuff that can shift units off cover like colossi, but they dont autohit. It's really a tough call at this point. The potential is definitely there to be a great unit, but until I play it more, I really don't know. It's all about if you've got an army that can use them, and if you can find a way to get them in close where they need to be.

MrMoustaffa wrote:An eradicator isn't fast, an eradicator can't take a hull mounted multimelta, an eradicator cant get in the enemy's deployment turn 1, etc. A russ and a hellhound (I'm just going to use this name as a broad term for all 3 for now) are made for different roles.

An eradicator can move 6" and fire 36". That engages the enemy even faster than the hellhound.

An eradicator can take a pair of multimeltas, which doubles the amount of multimelta.

An eradicator can't get into the enemy deployment zone, aka suicide gulch, but it can get 18" of the requisite 24". I don't know why you'd do that, though.

MrMoustaffa wrote:A russ, even an eradicator, is designed to stick with your infantry and provide fire support. They anchor your army and take the hits. A hellhound that isn't moving is a dead one (as number 3 found out today in my game) They can't afford to sit in your deployment and wait patiently, as they're just an expensive chimera at that point. Their only defence is a good offense. They need to press the attack, get in between the enemy, sneak into the deployment area, and harass support units and objective sitters.

Yes, but you can use an eradicator in this exact same way. You don't HAVE to (which is a strength, not a weakness), but you can if you want.

Yeah, it's 190 compared to 145, but you get an extra multimelta (so, really 160 vs. 190), and get AV14. Plus, you can also take a lascannon in addition, or instead.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Honestly, what else do we have that fills it's role? Vendettas may hunt tanks better at range, but they'll have trouble cracking landraiders and other AV 14 like monoliths. A hell hound with a multimelta or a devil dog can get in close and really hammer it with a melta hit.

Let's not get rosy-eyed here. It's a BS3 shot.

And it's got to get really close.

MrMoustaffa wrote: It's all about if you've got an army that can use them, and if you can find a way to get them in close where they need to be.

Yeah, it seems pretty niche. I've tried a hellhound in every edition, and it scarcely lasts long in my list for good reason...

In my long experience with Hellhounds (I've been a fan since 3rd), I just about always take two. I don't think they can't work solo, but I try to build a list with one and I usually take it out for something else, it just feels unsettling to me. That comment has very little tactical value other than to explain that all my experience has been with two. With two, you can at least feel pretty confident that one will be able to get to your preferred target to deal some damage. With one, you've got to protect it, and that kind of foils the whole point for me.

In my list, they were bodyguards for my Ogrn and Meltavet chimeras. They provided cover, front-end damage, and threat while the Chimeras advanced. Those two units were usually more important strategically (they could deny and/or score objectives and get linebreaker, and the Ogryns could do more telling damage over time. The Multimelta helped continue to draw the enemy AV12 fire, because while your odds aren't good (BS3 and all), it's enough of a threat that they can't just let it go, and it's damage over time is not trivial.

I will agree that it's best to design an army with them in mind, but I'm not sure that's so much different than most units. A bonus not yet mentioned: It's one of the tougher Fast Attack choices in the game, which makes it nice for the Scouring missions.


Amusing Anecdote: In my second game, I had both of my bolter boat Exterminators unload on a Rhino. Between misses and lousy armor pen rolls, they forced zero cover saves.

Today, I had two games with my new brainchild: The Blood Surge (Allies Warning!).

The Blood Surge is a maxed-out infantry blob (50 guys with plasma guns and autocannons) with a Blood Angel Librarian w/ terminator armour, storm shield and Divination Primaris Power. Form up a spearhead formation, place the Librarian in the tip, and enjoy the 2+/3++ on the 50 guardsmen. Your enem can't even outmanauver it, because this abomination can pour out an insane ammount of firepower (don't forget to use the Divination power!). And of course The Blood Surge is highly resistant to melee too, as they can re-roll melee to-hit rolls too and they have ATSKNF.

Again, this unit is beastly, I won a slugfest versus two 20 strong Necron Warrior blobs with losing like... 5 guys or so (and wiping out both Warrior squads) and did a perfect Linebreaker against an Eldar S6 spam without taking any casualties (!!!).

My exact list:

Biophysical wrote:I will agree that it's best to design an army with them in mind, but I'm not sure that's so much different than most units.

It doesn't require the list to be built around them as badly as some units, but I think it does than most units.

Hellhounds are very exposed pieces of AV12 that generally have to drive into suicide range to use their guns. I rather think they'd need more help from the rest of the list than russes or stormies, or infantry platoons.

Frankly I think the hellhound is a excellent tank. In most cases armies will be looking to close with you. Nobody wants to hang back against IG and outshoot them.

You will be having people trying to close on you and the Hellhound gives you a 32" threat radius with its turrent weapon. 12" Crusing Speed, 12 inch torrent, 8 inch flamer template.

STR 6 AP 4 murders Jet Bikes, can put heavy wounds on Nob Bikes, foot hordes, inflitrators sitting in cover and many other things.

If your bringing AV 12 Artillery, AV 14 russes, Plasma Vets in Chimeras, its unlikely that anyone is going to bother shooting at your Hellhound on turn 1. You can always place in in reserve and it can shoot out to 12" and flame anything that approaches your gunline.

Its solid and the only major knock is it competes with Vendettas for FOC slots and they cost the same.

I'm getting a little skeptical about the Hellhound though... Valkyries/Vendettas are "better" in many cases and I feel that Hellhound is a little overpriced for what it does on a regular basis....

 AtoMaki wrote:
Today, I had two games with my new brainchild: The Blood Surge (Allies Warning!).

The Blood Surge is a maxed-out infantry blob (50 guys with plasma guns and autocannons) with a Blood Angel Librarian w/ terminator armour, storm shield and Divination Primaris Power. Form up a spearhead formation, place the Librarian in the tip, and enjoy the 2+/3++ on the 50 guardsmen. Your enem can't even outmanauver it, because this abomination can pour out an insane ammount of firepower (don't forget to use the Divination power!). And of course The Blood Surge is highly resistant to melee too, as they can re-roll melee to-hit rolls too and they have ATSKNF.

Again, this unit is beastly, I won a slugfest versus two 20 strong Necron Warrior blobs with losing like... 5 guys or so (and wiping out both Warrior squads) and did a perfect Linebreaker against an Eldar S6 spam without taking any casualties (!!!).

My exact list:

Spoiler:

HQ:
Primaris Psyker
Librarian (Divination, Terminator Armour, Storm Shield)
Elites:
Marbo
Troops:
Infantry Platoon
- Command Squad (4x Sniper Rifles)
- 5x Infantry Squads (Plasma Guns, Autocannons)
Veteran Squad (3x Plasma Guns)
- Chimera
Veteran Squad (3x Plasma Guns)
- Chimera
Scout Squad (5x Sniper Rifles)
Fast Attack:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Demolisher (Sponson Heavy Bolters)
Leman Russ Demolisher (Sponson Heavy Bolters)

I like it. I've been experimenting with a similar infantry blob and come to the conclusion I need the same kind of Libby to provide cover for the squad.

Glocknall wrote:
Frankly I think the hellhound is a excellent tank. In most cases armies will be looking to close with you. Nobody wants to hang back against IG and outshoot them.

You will be having people trying to close on you and the Hellhound gives you a 32" threat radius with its turrent weapon. 12" Crusing Speed, 12 inch torrent, 8 inch flamer template.

STR 6 AP 4 murders Jet Bikes, can put heavy wounds on Nob Bikes, foot hordes, inflitrators sitting in cover and many other things.

If your bringing AV 12 Artillery, AV 14 russes, Plasma Vets in Chimeras, its unlikely that anyone is going to bother shooting at your Hellhound on turn 1. You can always place in in reserve and it can shoot out to 12" and flame anything that approaches your gunline.

Its solid and the only major knock is it competes with Vendettas for FOC slots and they cost the same.

Stop me if I am wrong, but don't Hellhounds have scout? So couldn't they outflank to hit your opponents fragile backfield units?

No you would have to take Creed to gain that.

 Happygrunt wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
Frankly I think the hellhound is a excellent tank. In most cases armies will be looking to close with you. Nobody wants to hang back against IG and outshoot them.

You will be having people trying to close on you and the Hellhound gives you a 32" threat radius with its turrent weapon. 12" Crusing Speed, 12 inch torrent, 8 inch flamer template.

STR 6 AP 4 murders Jet Bikes, can put heavy wounds on Nob Bikes, foot hordes, inflitrators sitting in cover and many other things.

If your bringing AV 12 Artillery, AV 14 russes, Plasma Vets in Chimeras, its unlikely that anyone is going to bother shooting at your Hellhound on turn 1. You can always place in in reserve and it can shoot out to 12" and flame anything that approaches your gunline.

Its solid and the only major knock is it competes with Vendettas for FOC slots and they cost the same.

Stop me if I am wrong, but don't Hellhounds have scout? So couldn't they outflank to hit your opponents fragile backfield units?

If only. That would let them really compete with a vendetta. The problem isn't so much that the Hellhound is overpriced, as the Vendetta is underpriced. How can you look at anything in our fast attack slot and not view it as useless when you have a flying tank that can carry guardsmen and has 3 twinlinked lascannons for only a 130 points? If the hellhounds and their variants were 10 to 20pts cheaper though, I'd imagine they'd be as much of a must take as the vendetta.

When I was talking about price earlier, I meant dollarwise You can make a really easy hellhound/devildog conversion by just buying a couple of bits for the top of the hull online. Then you can swap between regular chimeras and hellhounds at will. For people who just don't have the money or the space for 3 of those massive fliers, the hellhound really is the only serious contender otherwise (and as always, I'm talking about all 3 variants, using the hellhound name as a blanket term)

Think of them like how the Punisher changed from 5th to 6th. In 5th, they were terrible, and people thought you were insane for bringing them. In 6th however, they're actually pretty good, the problem is that they're slightly higher priced than you'd like and there are other things in that slot that just compete with it too much. But now at least, you can actually take them and make them a worthwhile addition to an army, you just have to have a list that can take advantage of them and good units to support it. It's not an autoinclude, but it's not terrible. Tourney players will never take them, but for the average joe, they'll probably become a cool, fun, and dependable unit.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
Frankly I think the hellhound is a excellent tank. In most cases armies will be looking to close with you. Nobody wants to hang back against IG and outshoot them.

You will be having people trying to close on you and the Hellhound gives you a 32" threat radius with its turrent weapon. 12" Crusing Speed, 12 inch torrent, 8 inch flamer template.

STR 6 AP 4 murders Jet Bikes, can put heavy wounds on Nob Bikes, foot hordes, inflitrators sitting in cover and many other things.

If your bringing AV 12 Artillery, AV 14 russes, Plasma Vets in Chimeras, its unlikely that anyone is going to bother shooting at your Hellhound on turn 1. You can always place in in reserve and it can shoot out to 12" and flame anything that approaches your gunline.

Its solid and the only major knock is it competes with Vendettas for FOC slots and they cost the same.

Stop me if I am wrong, but don't Hellhounds have scout? So couldn't they outflank to hit your opponents fragile backfield units?

If only. That would let them really compete with a vendetta. The problem isn't so much that the Hellhound is overpriced, as the Vendetta is underpriced. How can you look at anything in our fast attack slot and not view it as useless when you have a flying tank that can carry guardsmen and has 3 twinlinked lascannons for only a 130 points? If the hellhounds and their variants were 10 to 20pts cheaper though, I'd imagine they'd be as much of a must take as the vendetta.

When I was talking about price earlier, I meant dollarwise You can make a really easy hellhound/devildog conversion by just buying a couple of bits for the top of the hull online. Then you can swap between regular chimeras and hellhounds at will. For people who just don't have the money or the space for 3 of those massive fliers, the hellhound really is the only serious contender otherwise (and as always, I'm talking about all 3 variants, using the hellhound name as a blanket term)

Think of them like how the Punisher changed from 5th to 6th. In 5th, they were terrible, and people thought you were insane for bringing them. In 6th however, they're actually pretty good, the problem is that they're slightly higher priced than you'd like and there are other things in that slot that just compete with it too much. But now at least, you can actually take them and make them a worthwhile addition to an army, you just have to have a list that can take advantage of them and good units to support it. It's not an autoinclude, but it's not terrible. Tourney players will never take them, but for the average joe, they'll probably become a cool, fun, and dependable unit.

I think Sentinels, while not the most competitive option for the FA slot, are still good buys. I wouldn't say Vendettas and Hellhounds are the only two options.

AtoMaki wrote: place the Librarian in the tip, and enjoy the 2+/3++ on the 50 guardsmen.

Except that you're playing Look out sir wrong. You can't take saves on the librarian and then move them to other models. You can only transfer "unsaved wounds" in units where everyone has the same save. Where you have units with different saves you have different rules.

If the unit has the same save, you:
- Roll to Hit
- Roll to Wound
- Roll Saves
- Allocate to closest model
- If closest model is a character, you may attempt Look out Sir
- Resolve unsaved wound against the model the wound is (re)allocated to.

If the unit has mixed armour saves, you:
- Roll to Hit
- Roll to Wound
- Allocate to closest model
- If closest model is a character, you may attempt Look out Sir
- Roll save of the model the wound was (re)allocated to.
- Resolve unsaved wound

 Happygrunt wrote:

I think Sentinels, while not the most competitive option for the FA slot, are still good buys. I wouldn't say Vendettas and Hellhounds are the only two options.

Nah.


Well, not nah. If you have 35-60 pts spare, sure, get a Sentinel. But if you have 130pts to spare, there's no reason you should be weighing your options between a Vendetta and a couple Sentinels.

With all of this talk about hellhounds, I should add my experiences with the hellhound's sister.

For me, the devildog with hull heavy flamer has been exceptionally good.

It is 10 points cheaper.
The turreted melta cannon just got measurably more accurate as a vehicle killer.
An ap2 small blast is seeing a lot more prime infantry targets.
Fast vehicles can move 12" and fire TWO weapons now. There is no need to snap fire either weapon, unless you get crew shaken.

I have found that the devildog is a major threat to literally any army I've faced. FAQed harlequins are terrified of a heavy flamer that can circumvent their 2+ save IC. Paladins hate me throwing an instant death ap2 blast at them from a direction that doesn't allow drago to take the wound. Tyranids just hate the devildog for all kinds of reasons. And it should be fairly obvious that marines hate facing it.

I'm not always going to take the devildog over the vendetta. But I'd argue that the only way a vendetta can be as flexible as the devildog would be if it bought heavy bolters. An that makes the devildog cheaper by 20 points. And as I've been playing the game more and more with flyers I'm coming to understand their troubles. Getting fired on before you even get a shooting phase in a game where you had first turn is annoying. This will only increase as more interceptor units emerge. Missing out on first blood has also been a decider in more than a few close games. People forget that it is a two-point swing. It is the most valued secondary objective by far. And having all of your anti tank tied up in flyers will cost you first blood a lot unless you built around that.

Back to the overall point of the thread. Yes, it isn't easy to adjust our old ways, but getting out of chimeras, shooting and then using the chimeras flat out move to "fish of fury" can be a better way to keep units of veterans alive and unpinned. Incidentally, it powers up all of those CCS orders that we hardly used. You can field a platoon designed to hang on to a home objective or two, and then power command squads and veteran squads forward starting on turn 1. Devildogs love being at the vanguard of wedges like that.

I hadn't thought about the devil dog, seems like a nice buy now. Slightly cheaper than the other choices.

Would you think smoke launchers are worth taking? I'm wondering if they would get decent targets first turn, or if it is better to "lay up" for a second turn melta strike by hiding and popping smoke.

Tjolle79 wrote:

AtoMaki wrote: place the Librarian in the tip, and enjoy the 2+/3++ on the 50 guardsmen.

Except that you're playing Look out sir wrong. You can't take saves on the librarian and then move them to other models. You can only transfer "unsaved wounds" in units where everyone has the same save. Where you have units with different saves you have different rules.

If the unit has the same save, you:
- Roll to Hit
- Roll to Wound.
- Roll Saves
- Allocate to closest model
- If closest model is a character, you may attempt Look out Sir
- Resolve unsaved wound against the model the wound is (re)allocated to.

If the unit has mixed armour saves, you:
- Roll to Hit
- Roll to Wound
- Allocate to closest model
- If closest model is a character, you may attempt Look out Sir
- Roll save of the model the wound was (re)allocated to.
- Resolve unsaved wound

Just got my libby terminator to try something like this out. Access to Divination is nice for foot sloggers

 Trickstick wrote:
I hadn't thought about the devil dog, seems like a nice buy now. Slightly cheaper than the other choices.

Would you think smoke launchers are worth taking? I'm wondering if they would get decent targets first turn, or if it is better to "lay up" for a second turn melta strike by hiding and popping smoke.

I'm looking forward to trying it too. I didn't even think of how much more accurate it is now that any part of the blast is a full hit. That would make it's accuracy a bit higher than a hull mounted multimelta at BS 3.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I hadn't thought about the devil dog, seems like a nice buy now. Slightly cheaper than the other choices.

Would you think smoke launchers are worth taking? I'm wondering if they would get decent targets first turn, or if it is better to "lay up" for a second turn melta strike by hiding and popping smoke.

I'm looking forward to trying it too. I didn't even think of how much more accurate it is now that any part of the blast is a full hit. That would make it's accuracy a bit higher than a hull mounted multimelta at BS 3.

Yeah, the single BS 3 melta just isn't reliable enough in my eyes. I prefer going with weight of fire, and at over 100 points for a single shot the melta hellhound doesn't seem a great choice.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Think of them like how the Punisher changed from 5th to 6th. In 5th, they were terrible, and people thought you were insane for bringing them. But now at least, you can actually take them and make them a worthwhile addition to an army.

A fair comparison. They went from insane lunacy to not needing to feel like an idiot showing up with one.

Still leaves a lot of room for ambivalence.

I think the Vendetta just shines for one very simple reasons - it can transport infantry.

I'm now fielding no chimeras and my guard have just gotten easier to kill. But for a mere 50pts I can grab a SWS or naked PIS. For 55-70, I could grab an armed PIS or melta SWS. The vendetta can grab a pair of heavy bolters (not quite there yet with the cost of the things) and be more Versatile.

But the transport is the key thing. Very helpful! .

The Punisher was great in 5th. You're forcing 20*0.5*0.6 marines to make armour saves, plus the heavy bolter's 1, that's 7.6, for 2.5 dead.

Given that 4++ was king in 5th, you'd need to wound 5 MEQ on average. Did you really average 5 MEQ under the template? Every time? And did it never scatter? And always wound?
It will also wreck monstrous creatures, and small elite units like Zooanthropes.

The only real downside is/was its weakness against light/medium armour. That is definitely something to be considered when building a list, so you wouldn't want 3 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:
I think the Vendetta just shines for one very simple reasons - it can transport infantry.

Hm...that and the AV 12/12/10, 3 twin-linked lascannons, hard to hit and 130 points. Vendettas is probably the most over-powered unit in the game.

 Testify wrote:

Hm...that and the AV 12/12/10, 3 twin-linked lascannons, hard to hit and 130 points. Vendettas is probably the most over-powered unit in the game.

Vendetta is very very strong, but most over powered unit in the game?!? Man, have you ever read Grey knights codex? Or Space wolves?