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I think the question is where can and must fall together.

For example, we know can't trumps must, but does POTMS wording overide the "must fire snapshots" ruling of flyers?

It's not must fire snapshots, it's must be resolved as snapshots.
There's a difference.

And I just found, if full BS couldn't override BS1 in Snap Shots, POTMS would be a funny special rule - except Snap Shots, other shootings are normal shooting with original BS already. The "full BS" description in POTMS would be meaningless.

Anyway, thanks for all the discussions.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not must fire snapshots, it's must be resolved as snapshots.
There's a difference.

Of cause it must be resolved as Snapshots, under certain circumstances. What I want to make clear is that, if the "full BS" in POTMS could override the "BS1" while Snapshots.

Not really as 6th edition was released with 5th edition codexs that resolve potms with less bs. I imagine gw were trying to make it clear that the rule had changed.

Daston wrote:
Not really as 6th edition was released with 5th edition codexs that resolve potms with less bs. I imagine gw were trying to make it clear that the rule had changed.

Many special rules in codex before, are included in 6th Rules now. Maybe it would be routine in the following new codex.

 Diudiu wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not must fire snapshots, it's must be resolved as snapshots.
There's a difference.

Of cause it must be resolved as Snapshots, under certain circumstances. What I want to make clear is that, if the "full BS" in POTMS could override the "BS1" while Snapshots.

Foreboding specifically allows Overwatch to be fired at full BS. PotMS allows a tank to fire one additional weapon at full BS. Since it says additional it must be referring to the limit placed on vehicles who move at Cruising Speed. It does NOT give them the ability shoot at a flier at full BS. Nowhere in the rule for PotMS does it lift the restriction to shoot at a flyer with only a Snap Shot. PotMS does not give a LR the skyfire special rule, it does not lift the flyer's restrictions to pick a firing mode (skyfire or not).

Not to mention this is the same as the Signum in a Devastator Squad shooting at a flyer. You declare PotMS and you get your full BS, you declare that shot against a flyer and it goes to BS1. Order of operations.

Just one point people are missing:
Order of operations doesn't matter if there are two set values affecting same stat. It's roll-off each time, unless one of them is somehow more specific.
See Necron FAQ about how Banshee Masks (resolved first) and Whip Coils interact: Roll off each time.
Edit: Note that it doesn't necessarily change anything regarding this argument, but point was that you cannot use Order of Operations to prove anything if you're talking about two set values.

Luide wrote:
Just one point people are missing:
Order of operations doesn't matter if there are two set values affecting same stat. It's roll-off each time, unless one of them is somehow more specific.
See Necron FAQ about how Banshee Masks (resolved first) and Whip Coils interact: Roll off each time.
Edit: Note that it doesn't necessarily change anything regarding this argument, but point was that you cannot use Order of Operations to prove anything if you're talking about two set values.

False, the Necrons FAQ says nothing of the sort. Since both the initiative boosting wargear/rule AND Whip Coils happen at the same time, the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase, the roll off happens. This should technically be handled by page 7 where it states that things that happen at the same time are applied in the order determined by whose turn it is, but that's another argument entirely. Nowhere in that entry does it say what you claim it says, except in that specific situation for some reason. Declaring PotMS and declaring you are firing at a flyer do not happen at the same time so Order of Operations takes over.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Luide wrote:Just one point people are missing:
Order of operations doesn't matter if there are two set values affecting same stat. It's roll-off each time, unless one of them is somehow more specific.
See Necron FAQ about how Banshee Masks (resolved first) and Whip Coils interact: Roll off each time.
Edit: Note that it doesn't necessarily change anything regarding this argument, but point was that you cannot use Order of Operations to prove anything if you're talking about two set values.

False, the Necrons FAQ says nothing of the sort. Since both the initiative boosting wargear/rule AND Whip Coils happen at the same time, the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase, the roll off happens.

Bzzt! Re-read the Whip Coils again. Where does it say that Whip coils only work at start of Fight Sub-phase? Nowhere. You're making up rules.
I'll quote the rules so that everyone can check it out "Whilst any enemy model is in base contact with a model with Whip Coils..." (Codex Necrons, page 44).
So it is very much possible for Banshee to Charge unit with Whip-coils and have his Initiative reduced at Initiative Step 10 or Initiative Step 2, or even at Initiative Step 1. Even though Order of Operations is obviously increase to I10 and drop to I1 after that, FAQ still tells us to roll-off.

FAQ Necrons wrote:Q: If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar Banshee Mask etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified?
A: As a 'set value modifier' the Whip Coils effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each Fight Sub-phase

So tell me, how exactly did the Necron FAQ not tell us "Use Order of Operations to determine which set value applies" when it plainly reads "roll-off"?

To recap: Order of Operations does not matter. If model is effected by two set values, you roll off. This is how GW has FAQ'd it works.

Initiative order is determined at the start of the fight sub-phase. Whip coils sets your initiative to 1. If it doesn't work that way how do you know who goes first? Not all rules that apply to a situation can be drawn from a single source, you have to look at all rules before determining what they mean. Try again. I am not making up rules you are selectively ignoring them and extending one faq question beyond what is reasonable.

rigeld2 wrote:

Are you shooting at BS1?
No?
Then you're not resolving the shot as a Snap Shot are you?

I said before, some special rule would allow you Snap Shots with full BS, rather than BS1. Such as:

"Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots"
"Divination - Foreboding", "fire Overwatch on their full Ballistic Skill, rather than Ballistic Skill 1."

So I think that means, the full BS in Snap Shots would not be BS1. While shooting with POTMS, that's same.

POTMS does not grant the specific exemption Foreboding does.

POTMS simply allows 1 more weapon to fire than normal(at a separate target possibly).

Normally a Tank can move and fire 1 gun at full BS and Snapshot all other guns. POTMS adds a second full BS gun.

You will note that it is rather specific as to what situation it removes Snap-shots; any other forced snapshot will still effect the gun(Zooming flyer/Swooping FMC, or any sort of applied effect).

If GW wanted PoTMS to shoot at flyers at full bs then the PoTMS ability would include skyfire in the rules in the brand new book.

Maybe it needs a FAQ to make it clear.

Snap Shot is a penalty placed on a model in certain situations. One such situation is carrying a heavy weapon and moving. Another is firing at a flyer/fmc. Another is being a vehicle and moving. The Snap Shot itself is not different, but the cause of the model having to fire Snap Shots is. Even with PotMS you are still targeting a flyer and when shooting at a flyer those shots are resolved as Snap Shots unless you have the Skyfire rule. Which you still do not have even with PotMS. Show me where a LR has permission to ignore Hard to Hit rule. Because it isn't in the PotMS rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Diudiu wrote:
Maybe it needs a FAQ to make it clear.

No, it is pretty clear already.

"The assault cannon on my Land Raider can use POTS to shoot at your deamon prince at full BS!"

Yeah, no. I would never allow this.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Initiative order is determined at the start of the fight sub-phase.

Again, you're wrong. You should really read the rules again, there's nothing in the rules that infer anything like this. Initiative Order is not something that is written in stone at the start of Fight sub-phase. What happens instead, is that you "Work your way through the Initiative values of the models engaged in the combat" (page 20).

Captain Antivas wrote: Whip coils sets your initiative to 1. If it doesn't work that way how do you know who goes first?

Yes, they set your Initiative to 1. While you're in base contact. But there is only one situation when they set your Initiative to 1 during start of Fight sub-phase. And that is convoluted one: It requires model swap done because of an accepted challenge. In all other case they set your Initiative to 1 either during Charge sub-phase or during an Initiative Step. Similarly whip coil model can die during an Initiative step, changing models Initiative value.

Let me give you an example:
1) Charge sub-phase
Banshee Unit with attached Farseer charges Wraith unit, some of which have whip coils.
Banshee A gets in base contact with Wraith X who has whip coils. Farseer gets in base contact with Wraith Y who has whip coils.
Banshee B gets in base contact with wraith H who doesn't have whip coils. Banshee C gets in base contact with wraith J who doesn't have whip coils.
Situation: Banshee A and Farseer have their I reduced to 1.
2) Start of the Fight subphase: According to FAQ, this is when you roll off which one works. According to Captain Antivas, models Initiative Order can not change anymore after this point.
Assume whip coils win roll-off
3) Initiative steps
I10: Banshees who are not I1 make their Pile In move. Banshee D gets in base contact with with Wraith X and has his Initiative reduced to 1. Banshees kill Wraiths H and Y. Farseer Initiative rises back to I5, as he is not in base contact with whip coils.
I5: Farseer makes his pile in and gets into base contact with Wraith J.
I2: Wraith Y Piles in and gets to base contact with Banshee B. Banshee B has its Initiative Reduced to 1.

So Captain Antivas, tell me again, how is the Initiative Order determined at the start of the Fight Sub-phase? I've already shown you with the Farseer example that it is not in fact determined then.

Note: The person writing Assault rules did not take possible Initiative changes into account at all in the rules. They're all written with the assumptions that 1) Models Initiative and the Models Initiative step are synonyms and 2) neither can change during Fight sub-phase. There are some badly needed FAQs, especially regarding whip coils and how to handle models that have 'missed' their Initiative steps etc.

Captain Antivas wrote:Not all rules that apply to a situation can be drawn from a single source, you have to look at all rules before determining what they mean. Try again. I am not making up rules you are selectively ignoring them and extending one faq question beyond what is reasonable.

So then you can give me a rule quote with page number, telling me exactly where is this 'Set values are appplied on the order they're received', because I can't find it. (Note: It is definitely not on page 2, Multiple modifiers). And same time, you can also tell me why GW published FAQ that says completely opposite thing. The FAQ gives us clear answer how to handle situations with multiple set values interacting with each other. And while you're at it, tell me which rules am I ignoring.

Captain Antivas: Next time you tell me I'm wrong, give a rules quote supporting your position. You just say "You're wrong" without giving any rules support for your argument and so far, I've proven that you've been wrong each time.

Note: I'm still not arguing about POTMS giving one ability to shoot fliers with full BS. My only argument is that Captain Antivas is incorrect about 'Order of Operations' somehow applying to set values.

If you don't know what a model's initiative value is how do you work through the initiative order? Guess? Assume? Scrying? And what happens if my initiative 4 Marine, not in base contact with a Whip Coil, kills his charge then kills the next closest model as well, a model with Whip Coils in BTB with my Captain with Init 5? Do we go back in time and let the Captain go at the wrong initiative step? We are at Initiative Step 4 and according to you my Captain is now initiative 5 again, does he not get to have a turn because we skipped his Initiative Step? When we get to Initiative Step 1 does he still get to go? According to your logic his attacks are lost. With my logic he still gets to go.

I don't need page numbers to prove that a rule doesn't exist. In fact, how can I present a page number to a rule I am saying doesn't exist? Nowhere on page 23 (or page 20 for that matter) does it say anything about you having the ability to change initiative mid fight. It says rules, wargear, and abilities can alter initiative, but nowhere does it say you can change it mid fight. Since you have to know what your initiative is to proceed with the fight, and you have no permission to change it mid fight, you cannot be correct. Even the FAQ you are referring to defies you as it tells you to roll off when? You determine which rule affects you and what your initiative is when?

This is a matter of the pot calling the kettle black. You have also provided no rules or page numbers to support your claims. Sometimes, as shown above, you don't have to. For you though, this is not one of those times. Show me a rule. And read page 9. Last paragraph, first sentence. Order of Operations = as they occur. In this case I do have to show a page number. And I have. Now.

I'm sure the machine spirit in a LR may be smart enough to calculate a fire solution to hit flyers and etc like the Goal Keepers on modern ships......right? Or am I thinking too much.

 bluedestiny wrote:
I'm sure the machine spirit in a LR may be smart enough to calculate a fire solution to hit flyers and etc like the Goal Keepers on modern ships......right? Or am I thinking too much.

It makes sense, in real life. But it is not supported by the rules. Fluff argument is fluff.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
If you don't know what a model's initiative value is how do you work through the initiative order? Guess? Assume? Scrying?

Why do you have a problem with not knowing model's Initiative value? It's not hard. Just check if model is affected by a rule that changes Initiative value: if yes, check the new value; if no, it's written on the statline. See? Not hard. I didn't even need to make up rule about how models Initiative somehow becomes unmodifiable after the Start of the Fight sub-phase to do it.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
And what happens if my initiative 4 Marine, not in base contact with a Whip Coil, kills his charge then kills the next closest model as well, a model with Whip Coils in BTB with my Captain with Init 5? Do we go back in time and let the Captain go at the wrong initiative step? We are at Initiative Step 4 and according to you my Captain is now initiative 5 again, does he not get to have a turn because we skipped his Initiative Step? When we get to Initiative Step 1 does he still get to go?

RAW? His attacks are lost, exactly as I pointed out in my earlier post:

Luide wrote:Note: The person writing Assault rules did not take possible Initiative changes into account at all in the rules. They're all written with the assumptions that 1) Models Initiative and the Models Initiative step are synonyms and 2) neither can change during Fight sub-phase. There are some badly needed FAQs, especially regarding whip coils and how to handle models that have 'missed' their Initiative steps etc.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
According to your logic his attacks are lost. With my logic he still gets to go.

Yes, I agree. Problem is, my logic is RAW and yours is not. Your logic also has the problem that you don't allow Necron player to benefit from the whip coils rule in all cases. Obviously HWIPI is completely different, but this YMDC. The whole point of this sub-forum is to argue RAW.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
II don't need page numbers to prove that a rule doesn't exist. In fact, how can I present a page number to a rule I am saying doesn't exist? Nowhere on page 23 (or page 20 for that matter) does it say anything about you having the ability to change initiative mid fight. It says rules, wargear, and abilities can alter initiative, but nowhere does it say you can change it mid fight.

And here you make up a rule again. You obviously don't understand how permissive ruleset works. Let me put it to you simply:
If rule gives me blanket permission to change statistic, like Initiative, I don't need specific permission if I want to change it: 1) during Movement phase, 2) during Assault Phase or 3) middle of a fight
Rules already have given me permission to do it and unless there is a rule that says "Models Initiative cannot be modified during ongoing combat" well, then I can change it middle of a fight.

And here are the relevant rules giving me blanket permission for possibility of statistics changing during game. Technically before game too.
1) Page 2, Modifers, Multiple modifiers. No restrictions on timing.
2) Page 23, Who can fight. "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative." No restrictions on timing.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Since you have to know what your initiative is to proceed with the fight, and you have no permission to change it mid fight, you cannot be correct. Even the FAQ you are referring to defies you as it tells you to roll off when? You determine which rule affects you and what your initiative is when?

I still don't see the problem with 'not knowing my Initiative'. Second: I'd like the page number for the rule that denies me permission to change Initiative mid fight. I've already given you page number for rules that give me blanket permission to change Initiative, now you must give me the page number for exception that tells me I can't. It should be easy to do, unless you made that rule up...

And FAQ doesn't defy me at all, I know it tells to roll-off at the start of the Fight sub-phase, I'd guess because that looks to be when Banshee Masks change Initiative. (Probably. 4e codex vs 6e rules means things aren't too clear always).

 Captain Antivas wrote:
This is a matter of the pot calling the kettle black. You have also provided no rules or page numbers to support your claims. Sometimes, as shown above, you don't have to. For you though, this is not one of those times. Show me a rule. And read page 9. Last paragraph, first sentence. Order of Operations = as they occur. In this case I do have to show a page number. And I have. Now.

"While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence laid out here, when things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order." (page 9)
Shame this is completely irrelevant because of page 2, which explicitly tells us how to work out multiple modifiers, and it really looks like the order which those modifiers come doesn't really translate to them being applied in same order:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions,and finally apply any set values."


My position is still the same as before:
When model is effected by two set value modifiers, which one takes effect is determined by roll off. The order of operations doesn't matter. As proof, I've given GW FAQ that explicitly says this: "If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first ". If Order of Operations mattered in case of set values, GW would have written the FAQ to say it.

Disclaimer:This position only applies when rules are of the same specificity level.
Disclaimer 2: I think Assault Rules have far too many issues to actually play them RAW.

Page 2 and page 7 are not in conflict. Since PotMS/Signum is applied at different times the last one applied trumps the other. Page 2 says set modifiers are last, page 7 says they are applied when the situation makes it so. They are both relevant and both apply, but in this situation they do not conflict.

Saying "RAW means I am right" doesn't magically make it so. And I am afraid I cannot support a reading of the rule that assumes that the person writing it didn't take certain things into consideration. If you are going strictly RAW you have to assume they did include all relevant factors or you are no longer arguing RAW but RAITTSB (Rules As I Think They Should Be).

It seems though, that we are at an impasse. I'll keep playing it my way and you can do what you like. But remember, it is a permissive ruleset. That means you need permission to do something. Since you have no permission to change the initiative mid fight you cannot. I am not the one who is making up rules that is you who is doing that. The rules do not say you can do it. I am inventing nothing, you are creating a rule that says you can change the initiative for a model in the middle of a fight. As I said, show me the rule. This will be my last post until you provide that quote. Anything else will be ignored as it will do nothing to further the discussion.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

It seems though, that we are at an impasse. I'll keep playing it my way and you can do what you like. But remember, it is a permissive ruleset. That means you need permission to do something.

So far, correct. Note that I do have permission to change Iniative, only restriction mentioned in Whip coils is the base contact.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Since you have no permission to change the initiative mid fight you cannot.

And here you go again. This is still wrong.

Codex Necrons wrote:"Whilst a enemy model is on base contact with a model with whip coils they counts their Initiatitive value as 1, regardless of their actual Initiative value."

The rule tells us exactly when models Initiative can be changed by this rule. And it can be changed whenever model is in base contact with whip coils. No restrictions on timing. So here is the rule that gives me explicit permission to change models Initiative during mid-fight. Note that nowhere does it say "at the start of the Fight sub-phase"

 Captain Antivas wrote:
I am not the one who is making up rules that is you who is doing that. The rules do not say you can do it. I am inventing nothing, you are creating a rule that says you can change the initiative for a model in the middle of a fight. As I said, show me the rule. This will be my last post until you provide that quote. Anything else will be ignored as it will do nothing to further the discussion.

Again, I've showed the rule multiple times, yet again in this post.
If I have a rule that says "Models Initiative is modified when X happens" I don't need a rule stating that "Initiative can be modified mid-fight" no more than I need a rule that says "Initiative can be modified during Charge Sub-phase" or that I need a rule that says "Initative can be modified at the start of the Fight Sub-phase". This is something you must understand. After blanket permission is given to do something in permissive ruleset, it applies unless some other rule says otherwise.

According to your logic, I cannot measure distances during "ongoing combat" because there is no rule that tells me "I can measure during ongoing combat", even though there exists the blanket "You can always check any distance at any time".

RAW, Assault Rules are broken. This is becomes evident pretty soon after reading them. It is also why tournaments have released FAQs to cover these issues. I could only find two by quick search, Nova and Golden Throne. Note that while their rulings are completely opposite of each other, neither agrees with you and both agree with me.

Nova Open FAQ wrote: Required rules clarification: If a model moves into base contact with a Whip Coil-equipped Necron, it reduces its Initiative to 1 immediately. If the Necron is subsequently removed from play as a casualty (or otherwise) prior to the Initiative 1 step, continue to resolve the reduced model’s impending attacks at I1. In short, determine the set modifier at the earliest moment of contact during the Fight sub-phase (to include “immediately” during Fight Sub-Phases that begin with the models already in contact), and retain that modification through the conclusion of the Assault Phase.

Golden Throne FAQ wrote: Golden Throne FAQ: "Q: If a model engaged in close combat makes a 3″ Pile In move at its Initiative Step and comes into base contact with a Whip Coil or Lash Whip, does it make attacks at the current Initiative Step or at Initiative 1?"
"A: Models must make their attacks at their Initiative Step, which is determined prior to Pile In moves. A model that comes into base contact with a Lash Whip during its Pile In move will therefore throw attacks at its regular Initiative step."

You claim there is a rule that disallows models Initiative from changing during mid-fight. Isn't it bit strange that not a single TO from these two tournaments could find that rule?

Anyway, if you wish we can just split this discussion to a separate thread, and have a Poll with following options:
1) Models Initiative is not modified if it comes into base contact with a model with whip coils while doing Pile In move.
2) Models Initiative is modified any time model comes into base contact with a model with whip coils.

basic rule

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots
rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is
counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

basic rule

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

аdvanced rule

In a turn in which the vehicle neither
moves Flat Out nor uses smoke
launchers, the vehicle can fire one more
weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than
normally permitted.

than normally permitted...than normally permitted...than normally permitted...than normally permitted...than normally permitted...

rulebook:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they
always override any contradicting basic rules.

precedents


TAU´s FAQ

Fist

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 57 (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Crew Shaken. The vehicle IS rocked by the attack,
bul no serious damage is suslalrIed (or perhaps the
crew have deCIded thai It IS time to qUIckly relocate). The
vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its
next turn.

Crew Stunned. The vehIcle's crew" knocked about by the attack, or perhaps at! of Ihe vehicle's
largeting and steering systems are temporartly scrambled.
The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of
its next turn.

Second

Foreboding is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst this
power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit have the Counterattack
special rule and fire Overwatch on thei are full Ballistic
Skill, rather than Ballistic Skill I. Note that this does not allow
weapons that could not normally fire Overwalch to do so.

Rulebook

For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check
under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special
rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not
take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence.

A LR that moves at combat speed can fire how many weapons at full BS? PotMS lets you fire one more weapon at full BS than you can normally fire. Normally you can fire 1 weapon at full BS when moving at cruising speed. A LR can fire 2. That is what normally permitted refers to, it does not magically add Skyfire to the weapon. When a LR moves at combat speed and wants to shoot at a flyer the first weapon fired is done as a snap shot, because it is being shot at a flyer. The rest of the guns are fired as snap shots for 2 reasons: it moved at combat speed and they are being shot at a flyer. PotMS removes the moving at combat speed reason for one other gun, but it is still being shot at a flyer. All the weapons are fired as Snap Shots because it is shooting a flyer.

The Tau FAQ is irrelevant because the vehicle is not firing the seeker missile it can only be fired by a Markerlight. Since the vehicle is not shooting the weapon the effects present on the vehicle have no effect on the weapon. Before posting precedents make sure you understand the rule in full.