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Its good to see another point of view on this as well. You have a strong case for the agoniser. I loved that darn thing in 5th edition. I hope to still use it in 6th, but I have seen a lot of people saying no.

So you are saying to just stay away from IC's with 2+ saves right? and the hekatrix should still be fine?

What about when charging, you keep her at the rear of the unit to not get shot down by overwatch?

overwatch hates wyches, but here's an interesting thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/472377.page

it's another 10 pts, but has some interesting implications, esp since even w/ Difficult terrain roles, wyches can usually make it about 7~8" because of fleet and now they get a save.

have yet to try it though.

i just think that with the mobility you have, you should be able to pick and choose who the wyches assault, and therefore how effective they'll be. and yes, i keep my hekatrix in the 3rd row, just in case. and i try not to assault very shooty things without softening them up 1st (war walkers are great at that, as are your pistols once the war walkers have shot)

add in the Duke's double drugs roll (and the fact that his attacks ignore armour on a 5 and 6 to wound) and you've given your eldar list some CC punch for very little.

and they're scoring, just in case.

So if you take no kabolite warriors.... You can have the duke join any unit in deployment? Hmmm that sounds very tempting. But it's hard to not take an KW's or true born. You can always do the switcheroo but that takes the whole first turn.

I also really liking the baron as a utility character for dirt cheap price. +1 on who goes first is invaluable, gives Stealth, and something else too. Re rolls to difficult or dangerous terrain mayb? I forget. But he is also another awesome GW choice.

While the Duke has a couple of different benefits, i feel like the drugs are the best one. The FAQ makes it clear he's just an IC UNLESS there are warriors or trueborn in the list, at which point he has to start w/ one of their squads.

The idea behind the list was to add some CC punch (and some haywire) at price lower than the eldar codex CC, while still retaining the mobility that makes the DE (and the eldar shooting) so effective.

since you can only have a single allied HQ it's a toss up between what each spc character can provide, but i'm in favour of the Duke so long as you run at least 2 sets of wyches. the extra drugs roll is invaluable helping you avoid the dreaded "1".

I'm starting to think that (I'm so mad at myself for saying it) eldar should be allied in instead. Farseer or eldrad, rangers/ pathfinders, warp spiders for a mobile or fast list, guardian jetbikes, and war walkers.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I'm starting to think that (I'm so mad at myself for saying it) eldar should be allied in instead. Farseer or eldrad, rangers/ pathfinders, warp spiders for a mobile or fast list, guardian jetbikes, and war walkers.

I feel your pain. I have actually shelved the Eldar and started a chaos army after I realized my every list I built with DE allies would be better if the CW:E were the allies instead. Eldar have great units overall with only one or two duds (looking at you swooping hawks), but the price for them is just to much two editions later (cept Eldrad who's a bargain still).

Also I'd say you are about right with the standard Eldar allies list. Think I'd go with two jet bike units and no pathfinders though.

Yea it comes down to personal preference with the jetbikes/ rangers for troop choices. And also determined by the dark eldar units that are taken. I think it would be fraking sweet to see gjb's with warlocks and seers and reavers with the baron possibly and then a mobile duke somewhere else on the field. Mobile eldar goodness :-) I may work on a list like that if/when money starts to come in.

I think the warwalker argument is silly, and here are some pictures why.

People argue height vs actual physical model. The space between the legs is NOT part of the model/unit.

I have 3 pictures for you. The first is a rhino. As you can see I have drawn a line from point to point capturing its shape.
Now, the people who claim warwalkers can claim cover if it goes to their knees-
The physical model itself has a large gap between the legs. If you say that you are receiving cover from that, then I say I can shoot that gap. So If i can't see your warwalker and I can see that empty space between its legs in a window, I can shoot it. If it counts for your model when determining LOS for cover, then it counts for your model for determining LOS for shooting. So I can shoot your model if i can't see your model because you say the space between the legs of your model IS your model for claiming cover.
Here is a picture.
The green outline is for people claiming cover at the knees- it seems this shape is how you view the warwalker for cover/LOS. The yellow is the way I think it is. Look at the rhino above. See the empty space between the actual model and the red outline? Lets do it again, with a CSM rhino with all its spikey bits.Look at all that empty space! You need to cover 25% of that outline, the shape, of the rhino. That is, If warwalkers gain cover from their knees.

TL;DR- If people want to claim the gap between two parts of their model for cover, this needs to be applied to all models. Look how ridiculous it gets.

-edit- Next page and a bit late but what the hey!

Not to beat a dead horse here, we all can continue to disagree. I do see what you are saying. I have counted that gap both ways. So IDK.

This is a pretty crude sketch here I did with my laptop track pad, if you want I can spend a little more time to do something more finite in photoshop.

The theory is that One orange oval and one blue oval is equal to about 25%. So a total of 4 orange ovals and 4 blue ovals make up 100%. Its not exact by any means but its a pretty close call.

Just food for thought.

How convenient! You've included almost all the area BELOW the red line, aka the area covered by the aegis defence line! You've decided to ignore various chunks and bits ABOVE the line!

Keep trying to twist the rules for your models please. Its amusing

OH I KNOW

Model your own ADF, all eldar styles. Make it higher than the ADF, high enough to cover your WW. That'll work!

You clearly aren't getting what I was trying to show. I was attempting to show that it is a close call for the 25%. That is all. It wasnt convenient. Im not saying that this proves my point and that others are wrong. Im just showing that the defense line covers up "ROUGHLY" 25%. I twisted no rules in what I just showed.

Ovals were all that paint gave me to work with. As I said, its no masterpiece. I just did it to show that it is close to the 25% line then some people were claiming. That is all.

your attempt to show that the lower part of the legs is 25% is absurd...

If you took into account all the space on the upper part of the walker that you didnt fit into your ovals... it would be FAR less than 25% covered.

Try making square shapes that actually sit flush against one another and see just how different it turns out...

I can gladly take it into photoshop tommorow to do a better "evaluation" of the photo. It would be even better if there was a picture of the walker standing behind the defense line.

But in all honestly, this is just silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I wasnt proclaiming that it was "exactly 25%" I just said it is closer then what people have been making it seem. The calculation wasn't exact therefore I never said ti gave me an exact answer. I feel like people dont read what I write.

get out the planimeter !

 Exergy wrote:
get out the planimeter !

LOL! I definitely just had to go look up what a planimeter was

Why don't you guys just take the cover argument to the Rules Questions forum? People there enjoy parsing the vagueness that is the GW rulebook, and you will no longer have to plague the rest of us with this childish back-and-forth.

 Razgriz22 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
get out the planimeter !

LOL! I definitely just had to go look up what a planimeter was

yeah, I had to use one once for my job. Dusting it off and figuring out how it worked was a chore but they are cool.

Its like a compass on steroids!!

Im pretty much done with the debate about the walkers. Much rather talk about other stuff.

So I have seen people talking about putting the baron with a group of reavers. They would boost them immensely but does that not reduce their movement capabilities to what the barons profile allows? Jumpy infantry? So that group cant turbo boost anywhere meaning no blade-vanes or cluster caltrops. Anyone have any experience with this?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Its like a compass on steroids!!

Im pretty much done with the debate about the walkers. Much rather talk about other stuff.

So I have seen people talking about putting the baron with a group of reavers. They would boost them immensely but does that not reduce their movement capabilities to what the barons profile allows? Jumpy infantry? So that group cant turbo boost anywhere meaning no blade-vanes or cluster caltrops. Anyone have any experience with this?

it prevents turboing, but turboing is volintary.

i tend to start the baron with reavers and then if i see a juicy bladevane target I will detach and have him either join another squad or hide behind a bush.

Not a bad idea. I may have to try that one out. I will also have to start strategically placing bushes in my backfield with little signs next to them that say the Baron isn't here. :-)

So say you keep the Baron with the unit. You move up at 12" speed and go after what kind of target? The baron adds 5(?) S6 attacks to a charge i believe. So The unit isnt super CC. I suppose an arena champion can bring an agoniser to the fight. But wouldnt you be feeding him to a challenge to keep the baron safe?

If not CC, then shooty? So then anti tank or infantry? Maybe I just lack direction with this unit as it can do many things. I have also seen running it with an Autarch which adds a fusion gun or reaper launcher for shooting (anti tank or anti infantry) and a power lance for lots of S6 ap3 Charge hits. But as much as I love autarchs, they are sort of expensive.

Or maybe not an autarch? But a dooming Jetseer? Or possibly roll for book powers? Go for misfortune or somehting and fall back on prescience. And also just take psychic shreik outright. That mightbe something to look at.

Are hellions worth it? or they out of the picture?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Not a bad idea. I may have to try that one out. I will also have to start strategically placing bushes in my backfield with little signs next to them that say the Baron isn't here. :-)

So say you keep the Baron with the unit. You move up at 12" speed and go after what kind of target? The baron adds 5(?) S6 attacks to a charge i believe. So The unit isnt super CC. I suppose an arena champion can bring an agoniser to the fight. But wouldnt you be feeding him to a challenge to keep the baron safe?

If not CC, then shooty? So then anti tank or infantry? Maybe I just lack direction with this unit as it can do many things. I have also seen running it with an Autarch which adds a fusion gun or reaper launcher for shooting (anti tank or anti infantry) and a power lance for lots of S6 ap3 Charge hits. But as much as I love autarchs, they are sort of expensive.

Or maybe not an autarch? But a dooming Jetseer? Or possibly roll for book powers? Go for misfortune or somehting and fall back on prescience. And also just take psychic shreik outright. That mightbe something to look at.

Are hellions worth it? or they out of the picture?

Hellions are pretty terrible, I wouldnt try it.

I tend to run 6 bikes with clusters and a arena champ with venom blade with the baron. I also run another squad with clusters and heat lances. I bladevane anything where I know I can get away without getting charged. After that I look for targets of oppurtunity where I can put all the wounds on special weapon or champions hiding in the back(once you bladevane over them, they are the closest model)
With the jump infantry/jetbike movement they tend to be able to get a lot of places. Thus I use the unit to pile into something that I am already assaulting. With proper force concentration there is nothing i wont charge.

What makes hellions so terrible? Are they just outclassed by other units in the codex?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
What makes hellions so terrible? Are they just outclassed by other units in the codex?

the cost as much as a space marine but have T3 and a 6+ save.
they arent killy enough to make up for it. In fact they hit just about as hard as an assault marine. 3 attacks at WS4 and Str4 on the charge.

so for the same cost
BA assault marines have ATSSNF, T4, 3+ save, special weapons
hellions get slighty better shooting, random drugs, hit and run, and init6. WOOOHOO.

You seem to hold a lot against hellions :-P whatdid they do to you lol. Comparing across codecs is a sketchy business. And I always find it difficult to do. Maybe not as much so with allies anymore though. As with most things in the eldar/ dark eldar realm, they work best with Support and synergy. So The duke allowing re-rolls for drugs is wonderful.

I would also never take hellions without being lead by the baron. The hellions have a 5+ armour which is punched through by almost every shot :-(. I beleive they would do great moving trough cover with the baron allowing them to much a full 12" (if i have read jump infantry rules correctly) but take a dangerous terrain test. The baron allows re-roll to failed tests. With the barons stealth for the unit their cover save gets a boost as well. The baron could also take a lot of the shots wit his 2+ save up front.

Depending on the drug role they could do anywhere from average in combat to somewhat decent. With a volley of splinter fire and a solid charge they could put a hurt on some things.

They may not be..... awesome... but i feel they could serve a purpose in some lists. Idk, maybe I am jsut scraping the bottom of the barrel here...

Or maybe I just love their models...

 Razgriz22 wrote:
You seem to hold a lot against hellions :-P whatdid they do to you lol. Comparing across codecs is a sketchy business. And I always find it difficult to do. Maybe not as much so with allies anymore though. As with most things in the eldar/ dark eldar realm, they work best with Support and synergy. So The duke allowing re-rolls for drugs is wonderful.

I would also never take hellions without being lead by the baron. The hellions have a 5+ armour which is punched through by almost every shot :-(. I beleive they would do great moving trough cover with the baron allowing them to much a full 12" (if i have read jump infantry rules correctly) but take a dangerous terrain test. The baron allows re-roll to failed tests. With the barons stealth for the unit their cover save gets a boost as well. The baron could also take a lot of the shots wit his 2+ save up front.

Depending on the drug role they could do anywhere from average in combat to somewhat decent. With a volley of splinter fire and a solid charge they could put a hurt on some things.

They may not be..... awesome... but i feel they could serve a purpose in some lists. Idk, maybe I am jsut scraping the bottom of the barrel here...

Or maybe I just love their models...

hellions also dont have grenades
while they can get assault(and defensive) from a 20 point upgrade, they will never threaten dreads.

That's why hellions would always run with the baron. And dreads are rarly fielded anymore that I see. So
I don't worry about them.

Helions are expensive in points yes, but they have a greater flexibility that Kalabite troop choices don't have. It's like comparing Assault marines to Tactical marines, they suit different jobs, depends on your army configuration
\

I feel that in an Eldar/ Dark Eldar list that runs on the fast side with a Seer Council possibly and guardian jetbikes, you could ally in the Baron with a pack of 10-20 Hellions along with some reaver squads, it could make for a pretty quick on its toes list.

Been following this thread for a while, figure its time for me to weigh in, and also ask some questions while I'm here.

Now, keep in mind, I'm basically a sam-hain player with a love of exodites. So, I have a lot of eldar guardians riding around on Velocipators, strapping on shuri-cannons, and being awesome (for 48 in movement, we hide a rocket booster under thier tails, brothers and sisters. We don't model it in, as that would be dumb, but its there. Oh yes it is). And I hope to put pictures of them when their done up on the gallery. So, bikes, and anything bike related are very much a part of my tactics.

but I got my start with a gun-line, and I'm feeling like it might be time to return to that ol' work horse of the eldar list. So, few things to comment on.

First and foremost, my two cents about the walker argument. For me, my bikes set up high, being on flying bases and all, and generally, if an ork or a marine can see my head up over the hill, he can take his pot shots. pretty much, if the PILOT is un-covered, I'll let 'em call BS on my cover save. From the design, and I've held a few in my hand, the Ageis was designed with poor lil' guard in mind, so they could hide, and cry as bigger, scarier gak came at them. And yet, I can hear guard players laugh from here at the thought of hiding a Leman russ or the like behind a few pieces of ceramite. Besides, we're eldar. Why are we relying on filthy mon-keigh weapons to save us? How ever, if we must, I like rangers back there. take 6 instead of 5, and have one man, at bs4, man the gun at all times. Simple, easy, and our poor lil' elfy asses are covered. Walkers are better used elsewhere, though all things told, with Jinx coming in, vypers just got a new lease on life, mm?

There was an early discussion on dark reapers. I loved my reapers in 5th. Loved them all the time. Why, brothers and sisters? because when properly suppored, they could reliably end everything from a squad of khorne berzerkers fresh out of the pop up toaster that is a rhino, to Trygons-in-a-box popping up to say hello. With the marines, did it kill them all? No, but it did enough to where they were running away from my line, and if they are running back, that's more ground they now have to cover to get back to me. Keep-away is the name of the game,and reapers are good at that. plus, and bs3, ap3, even unguided reapers can still lay a hammer down if the Dice of Khaine are with you.

Right now, I'm really looking at two units hard. One is my Seer Council, and the other is my Warp Spiders. Spiders come first, as they have been the most frustrating. Now, I play a lot of orks. And by a lot of orks, I'm having to deal with upwards of 60 shootas, 3 cannons, a dakka jet, and 7-10 loots on average at 800-850 points. THATS a piss-ton of dakka. And, generally, my warp-spiders deep-strike in, kill 5-7 orks (kff sucks now that it stacks with shrouded and steath) then, no matter how far they jump back, die die die in the next round of shooting. And at thier price, that's a VERY expensive suicide unit, and they NEVER make thier points back. How are anyone else using them in 6th? IS anyone else using them ins 6th?

And the Council, long the main-stay of any good Sam-hain army. These guys are tough as everything, and take fire like a champ. Heck, I'm in a low-points leage, and even a farseer with guardian jet-bikers can take a pounding as long as fortune is kept up. (had a Dakkajet waaaaagh on me, just today, and a seer with 4 guardian jet bikes took 12 heavy duty shots, and only lost one guy) The differentiation, and the fact that they HAVE to kill thier way though chodes to get to your main guy means your rolling saves one at a time, and with re-rollable 3+/4++, one at a time means very few lost models. However...in my games, my jet bikes tend to sit there. Pop out, shoot 3-6 shots (depending on your cannon situation) and then...nothing. With a lack of vehicles, and fear of over-watch, where is the niche of our 300pt+ wrecking ball? how are people running councils right now, and if aggressively, How in the hell do you play an "aggressive" eldar force in 6th ed without getting chewed up like so much wraithbone?

I feel an aggressive eldar force in 6th edition.... isnt even an eldar force. Its a Dark eldar force with Eldar allies. Utilising both teams jetbikes and abusing fortune 2++ saves. At least it aint a flying circus