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Well, my codex says the Dark Reapers are BS4. Since the model has BS4 in the codex an codex trumps rulebook, my Dark Reapers Snap Shot at BS4. This is going to make taking out Flyers so much easier.

Also, per the FAQ, the BS5 only would matter if the vehicle is reduced to BS1, so if the vehicle is not reduced to BS1, you cannot use that question when Snap Shot-ing the Missile.

Happyjew wrote:

.

You know what, screw it, you're not worth my time.

Happyjew wrote:
Well, my codex says the Dark Reapers are BS4. Since the model has BS4 in the codex an codex trumps rulebook, my Dark Reapers Snap Shot at BS4. This is going to make taking out Flyers so much easier.

Also, per the FAQ, the BS5 only would matter if the vehicle is reduced to BS1, so if the vehicle is not reduced to BS1, you cannot use that question when Snap Shot-ing the Missile.

Im sorry here, I just finished laughing pretty good at this.
So, your codex says your model is BS4? Very good, it sure is! Now, when you apply the rules for Multiple Modifiers from page 2 youll understand the reason behind the FaQ answer.

Again, the FaQ answer points out that no matter what the BS of the model is when it fires the Seeker missile, that missile is resolved at BS5. Doesnt matter if the BS of the model was 10 or 1 before firing the missile. That missile is shot and resolved at BS5.


Also, another chuckle about the BS of your Dark Reapers comment, that was a hoot. X3

The point is simple folks, I've read the tau FAQ, have a buddy to runs em and like i stated previously we just do a roll off because the example given is just stated the weapon operates normally even under crew stunned which would normally make ALL weapon systems operate under snapshots. Hunter-killer missiles and seeker missile being an except to this effect since they are allowed to fire independently from the vehicle more or less due to be a vehicle upgrade rather than an actual weapon system aboard the vehicle and manned by it's crew.

For the poster who mentioned Seeker missles being used on flyers for anti-air technology that sounds perfectly reasonable, mostly cause if they Tau had a Flyer at this time they could give any attack they choose the skyfire rule to counteract the 6 to hit which is what a lot of players are still insisting on (again we use the dice roll off as the simplest rules breakdown).

While I understand where you are drawing your logic from it is not a clear and concise method and is a shady grey-area to be sure to say the complications of shaking a vehicle are identical circumstances to launching a missle into the stratosphere while it dodges and still being just as accurate on the ground. I don't deny 6 then 6 is a bit insane to land but I'm just not convinced your circumstantial evidence is clearly stated enough the words flyer never even come up once in the question nor the answer. It is only clarified the missle operates at traditional balisitic skill while shaken if you manage to land a marker light on something. it isn't saying ignore snap shots it is simply stating a condition which applied it to your vehicle can still operate at standard BS before firing it at any and all targets.

A good example can be drawn from 5th edition when shaken and stunned didn't allow you to fire any weapons at all unless you had a seeker missile so a Piranha for example might have been stunned by a heavy bolter and was unable to use it's fushion blaster or drones that round, but a Marker light suddenly highlights a rhino and suddenly that Piranha lets loose a Seeker missile while more or less grinding to a halt with the occupants inside trying to recalibrate systems. I think the FAQ alludes to the same advantage of firing the missile at most enemies who lack the skyfire ruling as telling you to fire at standard BS despite your vehicle being under Snapshots due to a damage result. This independent weapon is still lacking a proper skyfire rule tho and thus it means that BS 5 tho unreduced due to stunned or shaken is now successfully reduced due to skyfire, as it's target is hiding in the cloud-line with an engine more powerful and complicated than it's own.

In my opinion I will take either result and it is why i simply just ask for a roll off to not get into the habit of saying "If that says this... than this means that." Do what you want but I think you are just all seeing what you want from that FAQ answer.

Right. So in the game of Warhammer 40,000, there are Wargear options, Psyker Spells, and Special rules that can modify a model/units stat line. Page two of the BRB covers how we handle those

Pg 2 BRB wrote:
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. for example, if a model with a Strength 4 has both '+1 Strength' and 'double Strength', its final Strength is 9(4x2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both '+1 Strength' and 'Strength 8', its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).

So, with that covered, we can now move to the next part. Lets say that a Skyray with 5 of these Seeker Missiles mounted on it suffers a Crew Shaken. It can now only fire Snap Shots. Wait now one second, lets cover those Snap Shots with the BRB too.

Pg 13 BRB wrote:
Snap Shots
Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots = opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrence of a Snap Shot is when a model with a Heavy weapon, such as a heavy bolter, moves and shoots in the same turn (see page 51 for more on Heavy weapons). If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. Some weapon type, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

Ok, so Snap Shots are a Set Modifier value by the rules for Multiple Modifiers. It sets that models Ballistic Skill to 1 for shots resolved in that turns Shooting phase. Hold up though, lets bring back in the Tau FaQ that talks about this again.

Page 3 Tau 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5

Hold up now, with the answer that comes from the FaQ here is also a Set Modifier value, just like Snap Shots! So, we have two of them in this case. Well, to resolve that, page seven we have rules that cover this occurrence.

Pg 7 BRB, last paragraph of Basic Versus Advanced wrote:
On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this ruleboook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence

So, there we have it. The codex' Set Modifier Value now takes the place of the value that the Snap Fire sets the model to, but only for firing the Seeker Missiles. Any other weapon systems that the Skyray has on it do not benefit from the Set Modifier value that the Seeker Missile gets so they will still have to resolve other shots fired by it at Ballistic Skill 1.


Theres only one thing outstanding at this point though. To cover this topic thuroughly, we will introduce another Codex with its own Set Modifier Value. This Set Modifier value will be just like Snap Fire's Ballistic Skill 1 to keep things simple. Page nine covers what to do in this instance.

Pg 9 BRB wrote:
Exceptions
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence laid out here, when things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order. At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur. Occasionally, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particluar unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need to resolve it.

So, with this last rule here, we are able to cover the last bit that covers the Seeker Missile rule. With the above in mind now, we use the other codex' Special rule/power/wargear option that sets your models Ballistic Skill to 1. If this occurs in the Tau turn, they can apply the Set Modifier value from the other Codex first, and theirs second. Setting the Seeker Missile back at BS5. If this occurs in the other Codex' turn, they can apply the Seeker Missiles BS5 first, and theirs second, setting it to BS1.



And there we go. Seeker Missiles covered from a strict RAW perspective. :3

Let us assume that the vehicle is not reduced to BS1 for any reason (it didn't move, it's not stunned/shaken, etc). You decide to expend a markerlight on a flyer to launch a seeker missile. Since the vehicle is not reduced to BS1, you cannot use the FAQ, so then would you resolve the seeker missile at BS1?

Happyjew wrote:Let us assume that the vehicle is not reduced to BS1 for any reason (it didn't move, it's not stunned/shaken, etc). You decide to expend a markerlight on a flyer to launch a seeker missile. Since the vehicle is not reduced to BS1, you cannot use the FAQ, so then would you resolve the seeker missile at BS1?

No, cause the Marker Light is going to resolve at BS5 if its the Tau turn. The FaQ is not something that you "cannot use". Its just as much a part of the codex as the Wargear section in all Codex'. Since the FaQ has stated the Seeker Missiles BS5 is a Set Modifier Value, the only way to get one up on it is with another Codex on that codex' turn.

Xzerios wrote:
No, cause the Marker Light is going to resolve at BS5 without aid from the FaQ.

To fire a Seeker Missile, you have to remove a Mark Light token thats on a unit and declare what your doing with that marker.

Against a flier, your still firing the Marker Light at BS1, which if it hits, will give you a BS5 shot with STR6 for penetrating. Its still a crap shoot for Tau, but thats how it works RAW.

Where are you getting permission from the codex to override the SNap Shot rule? You say you have permission without the FAQ, where?

You claim that it is always BS5 because the codex says it is BS5. With a Signum my model has BS5 (per the codex), yet if he fires a Snap Shot, it is resolved at BS1. Karandras has a BS7 (per the codex) if he fires a Snap Shot it is resolved at BS1. A Seeker Missile has a BS5 (per the codex). If it fires a Snap Shot it is resolved at BS1.

Happyjew wrote:

Where are you getting permission from the codex to override the SNap Shot rule? You say you have permission without the FAQ, where?

You claim that it is always BS5 because the codex says it is BS5. With a Signum my model has BS5 (per the codex), yet if he fires a Snap Shot, it is resolved at BS1. Karandras has a BS7 (per the codex) if he fires a Snap Shot it is resolved at BS1. A Seeker Missile has a BS5 (per the codex). If it fires a Snap Shot it is resolved at BS1.

I do apologize, I edited on you above while you were typing this.
See above to your first question. Again see above for the second.

As for the second portion, leme pull up your codex and look up that Wargear option...
Ok... FaQ for it...
Nothing.

Sir, I dont know why you are under the impression that anything trumps your Signum's rules. Its a Set Modifier value just as the Seeker Missile is. You just have to nominate the model that will be firing with BS5 for that shooting phase. Anyone telling you otherwise is incorrect. As for the rest of the post, your models' stat line can be affected by all sorts of modifiers, thus the need for the rule for Multiple Modifiers. :3

Why is without the FAQ relevant? The FAQ exists. Is there an alternate dimension where it doesn't?

Dredging this topic back up for the debate on the Seeker Missiles once more. I do believe its been clearly covered by the above posts. Doing so as a curtsey to Happy. :3

Whoa, I did not say to dredge it back up from the depths from whence it sank. I said start a new one.

Well, heres the Titanic... we gona debate or what? :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this is easier. Theres source material for us here. :3

Xzerios wrote:
Well, heres the Titanic... we gona debate or what? :p

I admit it, I laughed aloud.

Seriously though. You contend that since the FAQ states that when a vehicle is forced to fire Snap Shots or reduced to BS1 (which IMO are two different things) the Seeker Missile is still BS5.

My position is that the Seeker Missile is effectively a separate model and is not affected by the vehicle, in as much the same way a Marine with a bolter is not affected by the Marine with a Missile Launcher, if they both shoot after moving.

As such, I claim that since you must resolve the Seeker Missile as a snap Shot (in this situation), it is BS1.

But I would never play that way. Tau, Eldar, and Nids need all the anti-air they can get...mmmm...ADL with Quad Gun manned by Fire Dragon Exarch with Tank Hunters and Crack Shot...

The FaQ as its written makes it a Set Modifier Value. Power put you at -2 BS? +4 BS?

Page 3 Tau 6th Edition FaQ wrote: wrote:Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5

The FaQ being apart of the Codex means that this Set Modifier value trumps the Snap Shots Set Modifier value. Only for the Seeker Missile though. No other weapon systems on the vehicle get to benefit from the Seeker Missiles Set Modifier value.

The big difference between this and the line shenanigans debates going on is the Flyer will still get to Evade this.
Tau player still has to go through one Snap Shot just to get this to work. Its not even on my radar for OP or cheese in any way.

Again the FAQ only covers if the vehicle is reduced to BS1 (which as I said, is different then resolving shots a t BS1). If the vehicle gets BS10 for some reason, technically it would also apply to the Seeker Missile. Also the FAQ does not cover what happens if the vehicle is not reduced to BS1.

I use the different values to illustrate the point. The point being that the answer is its a Set Modifier value.

I would also point out that even if the Skyray this missile was on was increased/decreased, this modifier would not apply as the missile has its own Stats separate from the vehicle its mounted to.

No it is saying that something that affects how the vehicle fires does not extend to Seeker Missiles. Snap Shot doesn't care what your BS is. You resolve the shot at BS1.

A Stunned/Shaken vehicle can only fire Snap Shots. This penalty does not extend to a Seeker Missile. If the Seeker Missile is required to fire as a Snap Shot, however, (which it never will unless firing at a Hard To Hit model) it would be resolved at BS1.

Xzerios wrote:
I use the different values to illustrate the point. The point being that the answer is its a Set Modifier value.

I would also point out that even if the Skyray this missile was on was increased/decreased, this modifier would not apply as the missile has its own Stats separate from the vehicle its mounted to.

Actually it doesn't make it a Set Modifier - we know it doesn't because it doesn't say "This is a Set Modifier". It's not a bad assumption to say that it is, I'm just pointing out that your statement of "The FaQ as its written makes it a Set Modifier Value." isn't 100% absolute.
Unless theres another FAQ that isn't quoted in this thread that's relevant. Feel free to ignore me if there is.

With your statement in hand rigeld2, that would nullify the point of the question and its answer. If thats the case, it would be illogical for GW to answer this question in the first place. Its purpose and as it is written in English is it takes a value of x, and makes it 5. Since this is precisely what a Set Modifier value does, it must be one. The only grounds that I can concede on this is that the question is ambiguous with what its trying to ask. Intention is there though and no matter how you read it, that is the end result.

Xzerios wrote:
With your statement in hand rigeld2, that would nullify the point of the question and its answer. If thats the case, it would be illogical for GW to answer this question in the first place. Its purpose and as it is written in English is it takes a value of x, and makes it 5. Since this is precisely what a Set Modifier value does, it must be one. The only grounds that I can concede on this is that the question is ambiguous with what its trying to ask. Intention is there though and no matter how you read it, that is the end result.

I don't disagree with your point overall, I just was pointing out that it doesn't actually say what you said it does. :-)

I don't really see the argument here.
Do Seeker missiles hit on a 2+?
-FAQ says they do.

Then the argument "No they don't."
Why not?
-because.

Seeker missiles are different from both the unit that fires the marker light and the vehicle that carries the missile. If you want to argue that the FAQ only covers the affect to the vehicle, then I argue that the missile is no unit. It's not a unit that can fire using its BS, it's a missile that hits on a 2+.

Does anyone really suggest that a 10 point, single use missile have to roll 2 6's just to get to the penetrate roll?

Yes. I do argue that, but I don't play that way. I argue that seeker missiles (and impaler cannons) cannot allocate wounds to units tbat are out of sight. Again, I don't play it that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I find interesting, is people have no problem with signums not affecting Snap Shots, when it is a set modifier, yet God forbid something the faq says has BS5, be affected.

I assume your talking about the Blood Angels' Signum correct? I know that the normal Space Marines have the same optional wargear there but as the two read out the same way. They are both Set Modifier values just like the Seeker Missile. Hell, you have to declare who is not going to be firing (the Sargent with this upgrade) and then nominate the model to benefit from the wargear.


In this case, its a Codex vs BRB. Your wargear will still let one of your models fire at BS5, even a Flyer model. To help you out, whats the argument that folks are telling you 'no, you may not'?

The same argument I've been using in regards to Seeker Missiles.

A model using his Sarge's Signum is BS5 but if firing a Snap Shot it is resolved at BS1, regardless of the actual BS.

A Seeker Missile is BS5, but if firing a Snap Shot is resolved at BS1, regardless of the actual BS.

Edit to add: And as rigeld pointed out, Seeker Missile BS is as much a set BS as a Space Marine Sergeant is BS5.

Ask yourself this question in regards to the Signum Happy:

"How does the Signum make the BS of the model 5?'

Xzerios wrote:
Ask yourself this question in regards to the Signum Happy:

"How does the Signum make the BS of the model 5?'

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. How does a Signum work? The bearer gives up his attack and another model in the squad is BS5. Not really sure what you are getting at here.

Well, due to Multiple Modifiers, does it make it BS5 by adding, subtracting, multplying, or Set Value?