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Ah, now I see what you are getting at. It divides by 0 and sets the value to 5.

Edit to add: This is interesting. Last time the topic was Signum v Snap Shots and it devolved to Seeker Missile v Snap Shot. Now we have the opposite going on.

More or less. Now that its a Set Modifier Value, the same thing that Snap Shots are, your codex trumps this portion due to page seven. Thats right, you Signum a guy in the unit with a heavy weapon and it doesnt matter if he moved in that phase. Set BS to 5, fire on a Flyer at BS5.

BTW I originally argued that Signums worked in regards to Snap Shots here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458500.page

Oh yes, one of the guys pointed out that its limited to the Shooting Phase and they are correct; so no Overwatching with it, Beyond that though, your Wargear will still let you BS5 Flyers and the like as long as ya follow the rules for it. :3

My original post was yes it could override Snap Shots, but could not be used for overwatch.

You were spot on good sir. They mention timing and when its applied. Thats incorrect. You check BS when required, and since both are Set Modifier values you go to Specific Vs Advanced. Since its Codex material, BRB gets trumped. :3

And there's the difference. Signums are a set modifier. Seeker Missiles are not.

Tau codex says seeker missiles fire at an assumed BS5, its very similar to the wording of the signum where it grants one model BS5.

I am still of the opinion that Seeker missiles work but Signums don't, the Signum is a set modifier, nothing else in question here is, they simply tell you to resolve at a different particular value, they aren't setting anything.

You use the Signum and change a models BS to 5, it makes no difference because if you are Snap Shotting you aren't using a models BS nor modifying a models BS, you are simply resolving the shots as though the model's BS was 1 regardless of it's actual value.

Similarly, when firing a Seeker Missile it doesn't matter what the model's actual BS is, because if you are firing Snap Shots you count the model as having BS of 1 without actually changing its BS. But then, the Seeker Missile doesn't care what the model's BS is, or is being counted as, it simply resolves at BS 5 regardless.

They are two very different situations and accordingly have very different in-game resolutions.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
But then, the Seeker Missile doesn't care what the model's BS is, or is being counted as, it simply resolves at BS 5 regardless..

Only when the vehicle is reduced to BS1.

Does firing a Snap Shot reduce your models BS to 1? No. The model is still BS(whatever) but the shot is resolved at a BS1.

Happyjew wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
But then, the Seeker Missile doesn't care what the model's BS is, or is being counted as, it simply resolves at BS 5 regardless..

Only when the vehicle is reduced to BS1.

Does firing a Snap Shot reduce your models BS to 1? No. The model is still BS(whatever) but the shot is resolved at a BS1.

No it's not "resolved at" a given value.

The model's "Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" it's a fundamental difference, and what allows the Seeker's "resolved at" terminology to override the Snap Shot restrictions.

Both the Signum and Seeker Missiles have Set Modifier values. Do they state that in their rules? No. The rules though read that they are.

Both have the ability to over ride Snap Shots as both come from Codex'.

Xzerios wrote:
Both the Signum and Seeker Missiles have Set Modifier values. Do they state that in their rules? No. The rules though read that they are.

Both have the ability to over ride Snap Shots as both come from Codex'.

The Seeker Missile isn't a Set Modifier though, you never even refer to the BS of the model equipped with the Seeker Missile when it is being fired, you simply use the BS you are told to use in the Markerlight rules.

It's not a set modifier because it doesn't set any statistic to any set value.

"If a model is forced to make snaps shots rather than shoot normal, then its ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots"
"If a vehicle is reduced to ballistic skill 1 (because its shaken or stunned for example) do its seeker missiles file at ballistic skill 1 or ballistic skill 5?" A: 5
Crew Shaken "The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn"

Nowhere in crew shaken does it say that the BS is actually reduced to 1, however it does say that it must fire snap shots. Now taking from GW's FAQ stating specific examples of reducing a bs to 1, we can then assume that Snap Shots "reduce" the bs to 1.

Zegz wrote:
"If a model is forced to make snaps shots rather than shoot normal, then its ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots"
"If a vehicle is reduced to ballistic skill 1 (because its shaken or stunned for example) do its seeker missiles file at ballistic skill 1 or ballistic skill 5?" A: 5
Crew Shaken "The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn"

Nowhere in crew shaken does it say that the BS is actually reduced to 1, however it does say that it must fire snap shots. Now taking from GW's FAQ stating specific examples of reducing a bs to 1, we can then assume that Snap Shots "reduce" the bs to 1.

That was one of my sillier points. The FAQ only addresses an actual BS reduction which firing Snap Shots does not actually do.

But let me ask this: If a seeker missile on a piranha is fired at a unit, did the vehicle fire at the unit?

Read the seeker missile entry in the tau codex. The short answer is no, the vehicle is not actually in control of the missile.

OK. So then if the Seeker Missile is fired at a Zooming Flyer/Swooping FMC, is the vehicle reduced to BS1?

Happyjew wrote:
OK. So then if the Seeker Missile is fired at a Zooming Flyer/Swooping FMC, is the vehicle reduced to BS1?

No, the vehicle is counted as being BS 1 for the purpose of those specific shots, which happen to not use the vehicle's BS at all.

The vehicle's BS never changes.

Happyjew wrote:
OK. So then if the Seeker Missile is fired at a Zooming Flyer/Swooping FMC, is the vehicle reduced to BS1?

No, just the missile. The vehicle will fire normally if its firing at objects on the ground. The Hard to Hit rule will apply if the vehicle fires at the Flyer though.

Xzerios wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
OK. So then if the Seeker Missile is fired at a Zooming Flyer/Swooping FMC, is the vehicle reduced to BS1?

No, just the missile. The vehicle will fire normally if its firing at objects on the ground. The Hard to Hit rule will apply if the vehicle fires at the Flyer though.

So then why are people using an irrelevant question to fire Seeker Missiles at Flyers to claim BS5?

Because the missile is merely mounted on a vehicle platform, thus the wording "fired from a vehicle". The Missile is its own entity when it comes to resolving itself. We covered the BS5 earlier in the topic.

Happyjew wrote:
So then why are people using an irrelevant question to fire Seeker Missiles at Flyers to claim BS5?

Because in context the FAQ is clearly saying Seeker Missiles can be Snap Shot at BS5, I understand your desire to take something else away by RAWing the FAQ but it's reference to the vehicle being reduced to BS 1 is non-existent anyway, the two examples they provide (shaken and stunned) similarly only limit the vehicle to Snap Shots. It's an important distinction because if, for instance, the Vehicle was called upon to make a BS check, you wouldn't do it at BS 1 just because the vehicle is shaken or stunned, you would use it's normal BS.

So then the only endpoint I can come to is that you are trying to render a whole FAQ question worthless by virtue of your semantics over whether or not a vehicle is really "reduced to BS1"?

I think if that's the case you need to take a step back and look at how you are reading the FAQ, sure it matches up with the phrasing GW chose to use, but there are obviously implied elements to the question beyond the readily apparent words they have used.

All of which is largely irrelevant because the RAW already supports the idea that the vehicle's BS (which is counted as a certain value on account of Snap Shots) isn't even used when firing a Seeker Missile.

I never seriously used vehicle isn't reduced to BS1, so the question is useless as an argument. My argument is firing the seeker missile at a flyer must be fitted as a snap shot and therefore resolved at BS1. This scenario has nothing to do with the faq because it does not involve the vehicle in any way.

Where the hell are you getting that the shot MUST be resolved at BS 1? Nowhere does it say that the shot must are resolved at bs1.

The answer in one post:

Rulebook, Page 81 wrote:
Hard to Hit
Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule as described on page 42)

Rulebook, page 13 wrote:
Snap Shots
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Tau Empire Codex, page 30-31 wrote:
Any model equipped with a markerlight may request a seeker missile salve as detailed in the markerlight rules. Up to two seeker missiles may be fitted to a vehicle, and one or both launched in a single turn, each using different markerlight hits. [...] Ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds only to markerlight users.

Tau Empire Codex page 29 wrote:
Eaach time you hit a target unit with a markerlight, put a counter by that unit. Counters may be expended by subsequently firing Tau [...] firing at the marked unit. Every counter expended grants the firing unit one of the following effects, which may be combined:
* To allow a vehcile to fire a single seeker missile at the market unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.
* [...]

Tau FAQ 6th Edition v1.0 wrote:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5?
A: Ballistic Skill 5

Rulebook, page 74 wrote:
Crew Shaken The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn.
Crew Stunned The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn. [...]

(see page 13 for Snap shots)

Analysis: A model attempting to fire at a zooming flier resolves its shot as a Snap Shot.
A Tau vehicle which is Shaken or Stunned may fire any Seeker Missiles at ballistic skill 5, rather than 1.
Shaken and Stunned force the vehicle to fire Snap Shots.
Therefore, a Tau vehicle which is forced to fire Snap Shots may still launch Seeker Missiles at BS5.
Therefore, a Tau vehicle which is firing at a zooming flier may launch Seeker Missiles at BS5.
Clear enough?
If you want to claim that this scenario does not involve the vehicle in any way, and only involves the seeker missile, then (a) the FAQ is a completely irrelevant non-question, as seeker missile shots only ever involve the seeker missile, and (b) Snap Shots does not apply, as Snap Shots clearly only applies to models (see page 13 quote), which a Seeker Missile is not.


It is not in any way an overpowering rule if you let it happen (at you still need a 6+ from a markerlight, followed by a 2+ from a seeker missile, meaning you need a unit of markerlights, which spend their turn firing at the flier, and a vehicle alive with a seeker missile, and only awards you with a single S8 AP3 hit anyway...

I think it is pretty clear by both RAW and RAI that Seeker Missile attack with BS5 at all times.

Happyjew wrote:
I never seriously used vehicle isn't reduced to BS1, so the question is useless as an argument. My argument is firing the seeker missile at a flyer must be fitted as a snap shot and therefore resolved at BS1. This scenario has nothing to do with the faq because it does not involve the vehicle in any way.

You continue to say Snap Shots must be resolved at BS 1 but that isn't the Snap Shot rule, the rule is simply that the model counts as being BS 1 for the shots, the shots can be resolved at any BS they want to be resolved at provided they have a special rule allowing them to resolve at a BS other than that of the model.

Seeker Missiles happen to have exactly that rule.

No they don't. How does a question about what happens to vehicle affect when the Seeker Missile is required to be fired as a Snap Shot? It doesn't. All the FAQ is saying is that if there is an effect on the vehicle messing with its BS, that effect does not carry over to the Seeker Missile. Shooting at a Flyer is not an effect on the vehicle.

Happyjew wrote:
No they don't. How does a question about what happens to vehicle affect when the Seeker Missile is required to be fired as a Snap Shot? It doesn't. All the FAQ is saying is that if there is an effect on the vehicle messing with its BS, that effect does not carry over to the Seeker Missile. Shooting at a Flyer is not an effect on the vehicle.

I'm not even talking about the FAQ, the Seeker missiles have a rule (technically it's under Markerlights) which says "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5".

They tell you the Ballistic Skill to use when resolving Seeker Missile Shots, it's not the Ballistic Skill of the vehicle they are mounted on, it's 5, it's not the Ballistic Skill the Vehicle is counted as having, it's 5, it's not any other value you might think of, it's 5.

That's why they are BS 5 when firing any sort of Snap Shot, be it because they are Shaken, Stunned, or targetting Flyers.

Happyjew wrote:
No they don't. How does a question about what happens to vehicle affect when the Seeker Missile is required to be fired as a Snap Shot? It doesn't. All the FAQ is saying is that if there is an effect on the vehicle messing with its BS, that effect does not carry over to the Seeker Missile. Shooting at a Flyer is not an effect on the vehicle.

The rules for seeker missiles say that the vehicle fires the missile. Thus the vehicle is the one affected by snap shots. And thus, as snap shots do not carry over to the missile, the shots are made at BS5.

Except that the Hard to Hit rule specifies that the shot must be resolved as a snapshot - tnot that the vehicle must fire as a snapshot.

See how it doesn't matter what the vehicle does? Ignore the vehicle, it's not in the equation.