Mantic DreadBall Kickstarter - Completed! - 3 seasons fully funded!

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**Alpharius**

Zweischneid wrote:

Might be a unique ailment I suffer from.

It is hardly unique on the Internet.

However, you've certainly made your point, and continuing to beat that particular drum over and over again can eventually be considered off topic, spam and/or trolling.

**Black Nexus**

What if - shock horror - the distributor list is wrong! how about that? Have Mantic said what they are actually releasing? No. Remember that Distributor leak last year before Warpath? The products were right but the pricing was ridiculously off. Consider the fact that it might actually be wrong.

Given the fact the RefBot has a model and is fully painted, do you not think if they actually had the model, they'd show it off, huh? They don't have the alt sculpts, we've helped them do that. Forge Father team, they've shown off painted models for - Gorim Ironstone, they've got a piece of concept art. Were they going to create it anyway? Possibly, but they've not created it yet.

**judgedoug**

Did anyone post this?

Jake Thornton, designer for Dreadball, wrote a nice article about it and Blood Bowl.

A quick snippet:

"It was obvious from the outset that whatever DreadBall was or was not, it would be compared to GW’s Blood Bowl. Whether this was going to be favourable or not depended on the individual, but compared it would certainly be. This is exactly what is happening now, and so I would like to take a few moments to discuss the similarities and differences from my point of view as designer, and explain my decisions and talk a bit about where the concept for DB came from."

http://quirkworthy.com/2012/08/27/dreadball-and-the-elephant-in-the-room/

**nkelsch**

judgedoug wrote:
Did anyone post this?

Jake Thornton, designer for Dreadball, wrote a nice article about it and Blood Bowl.

A quick snippet:

"It was obvious from the outset that whatever DreadBall was or was not, it would be compared to GW’s Blood Bowl. Whether this was going to be favourable or not depended on the individual, but compared it would certainly be. This is exactly what is happening now, and so I would like to take a few moments to discuss the similarities and differences from my point of view as designer, and explain my decisions and talk a bit about where the concept for DB came from."

http://quirkworthy.com/2012/08/27/dreadball-and-the-elephant-in-the-room/

Actually, that article is great. I have a lot of respect for the designer now and really like the angle because I totally agree with his statement:

You cannot compete with nostalgia, so attempting to do a better version of BB (ie fantasy American football) was inevitably doomed to failure. Setting out to produce a failure is stupid, and as a I try not to be stupid** I wanted to avoid this.

Makes the game much more appealing and I have hope for the rules which was going to be my big deal-breaker. I am going to Striker this and see how it goes.

**frozenwastes**

Zweischneid wrote:
(a) faux-stretch-goals that are already slotted for release,

Everyone who starts a kickstarter project believes in their product. They all plan for the release of the product and possible related additional products. If stretch goals don't cover an expected release, that doesn't mean it magically doesn't happen. It may still get funded by a bank loan or paid for by revenues from the sale of the core product.

There's nothing about stretch goals that says that they will only be created if the Kickstarter hits a certain amount. They are simply things that will be created *for sure* if the amount is hit. It is 100% irrelevant whether or not the project would get made with some other means of funding. It does not make them "faux" stretch goals at all. It just means that they are made part of the Kickstarter funding rather than needing money from another source.

(b) blatant lies in the face of their Kickstarter supporters of what the backers "input" and "contribution" to the production truly is (don't forget, alot of KS-dynamic comes from this warm "part-of-the-making"-feeling) and

Can you quote me someone from mantic on this? You say "blatant lies" so that means someone said something. Then demonstrate that it is false. Then demonstrate it was knowingly made as a false statement with the intent to deceive.

(c) deliberate low-balling of the "original" game just to add "free" stuff onto it through the aforementioned "faux-stretch-goals" (yes, comparable games such as, for example, Blood Bowl, come with 24 miniatures from the box, I can only assume that the "true" DreadBall-release is designed to be around 24 as well).

Or maybe Mantic is playing it safe here. What if they were wrong about the demand for a sci-fi sports miniature game? What if it only barely funded? Then they'd probably really, really appreciate that everyone would be expecting a less capital intensive project, wouldn't they?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:

If that is the case, they could just say that this is how it is. But that's not what they are doing. If that is their true motivation, fine. But why do they then choose to deceive their backers by claiming otherwise, as they clearly did with the Dwarf MVP.

if we pass this goal, we’ll also create Gorim Ironstone

It's great to see people still giving them the benefit of a doubt. But me, once I've been lied to, I cannot stop that nagging voice in my head that keeps asking what else from what they are saying is perhaps also a lie.

Might be a unique ailment I suffer from.

What about that statement is a lie? If they meet the goal, they'll make the miniature. If they don't pass the goal, they may allocate some funding from another source and still make the miniature.

Nothing about Kickstarter precludes funding related projects from other sources of capital.

I think you're perceiving this as deceptive because you have ideas in your head about how companies raise capital and plan for projects that aren't related to reality.

.

**judgedoug**

nkelsch wrote:
Makes the game much more appealing and I have hope for the rules which was going to be my big deal-breaker. I am going to Striker this and see how it goes.

I agree. I was already backing but that article actually made me that much more excited to try it out. I feel I'll get a lot of good game sessions out of it now.

**English Assassin**

Jake's blog is well worth following; he has some interesting thoughts to share about wargaming, and is remarkably willing to be forthright about what he does and doesn't like.

Edit: he has also just posted some more of said interesting thoughts on BoardGameGeek.

**scarletsquig**

$75k goal, reached, Veer-myn are up next, exactly the same deal as the forgefathers - free minis and free MVP.

There's currently 9 extra minis at the Striker level, and the next stretch goal will raise that to 12.

After this one, things should get interesting, since we'll be moving into entirely new completely unplanned-for stuff.

Current rumours/ hints are:

- DreadBall Xtreme expansion (an "underground" version of the game*).
- 4 extra MVPs (one tentacle monster**).
- 4 new teams (female corporation).
- Hex Bases
- 3d pitch

* Using the "produced by political or social radicals or nonconformists" definition of "underground", there - don't start going off on one about Dungeonbowl. :p
** His name is "John". Dakka-exclusive scarletsquig leak right there! Shocking!

**Alpharius**

3D Pitch?

Wow!

**ironicsilence**

Alpharius wrote:
3D Pitch?

Wow!

3D pitch could be what pulls me in to backing

**sparkywtf**

all those rumors sound awesome.

I like the idea of all female team, my girlfriend would love it.

**timetowaste85**

And, add another $150 to the pledge. Seems like a good number. I just hope they don't manage to convince me to up it to $230 from awesome BoGo offers like KoW did...crap. Lol.

**Black Nexus**

I'm sure there'll be a lot of people wanting to add an all-female team and a 3D pitch if the rumours are true.

**timetowaste85**

Black Nexus wrote:
I'm sure there'll be a lot of people wanting to add an all-female team and a 3D pitch if the rumours are true.

I'd love to get an all female team, and a 3D pitch sounds cool too. I know my friends will be more likely to join me in the game if there are more teams to choose from.

**adamsouza**

English Assassin wrote:
Jake's blog is well worth following; he has some interesting thoughts to share about wargaming, and is remarkably willing to be forthright about what he does and doesn't like.

Edit: he has also just posted some more of said interesting thoughts on BoardGameGeek.

article here:

Lex Major wrote:Since last week my interest was piqued by this upstard kid on kickstarter, and my fellow BB-leaguer friends and I have been discussing this quite a bit, as you would the new kid on the block with the strange orange hair. Since it's bound to bring some comparison with the Great Old One that is Blood Bowl, I think I just might jump right in with my (uncalled for) observations. I played for many years, and until just recently I've been playing in a BB 7's league (shorter games) with friends.

First, why I think this has a real shot at being the Heir to the Blood Bowl throne

The real deal
Let's be clear: while Dreadball is set in the future and bla bla bla, it's certainly the most serious contender we've ever seen for a "the Blood Bowl of the 21st century". It claims to have everything that made BB a success: Lots of teams with differenty styles, players with variable skills, League play and lots of violence. It's even got some "Claim to fame" with a designer that played a role in the very first iterations of our beloved fantasy sports game. So it starts very well indeed, and I believe Mantic's story, I believe they can deliver on this thing to be a great game. I believe it so well in fact that I'll pledge on their Kickstarter (remember: there is no guarantee of delivery at all anywhere on Kickstarter).

Modern Rules for a Modern Game
Let's face it, Blood Bowl rules have not aged very well, not well at all. Even with the community's efforts, it's an 80's game and it shows. It takes a huge effort to teach the game to newcomers, and explaining the various pick-up and catch modifiers (why the default +1 for pickup and Dodge?) has been painful for me for a while now. And it takes SO. MUCH. FREAKING. TIME. to play a game... there is no chance to do two of them in one night, and you almost have to take vacations if you plan on doing tournaments. This is really hard to manage with family life and it's why we switched to BB7 (good but not as fun as original).

But DreadBall seemed to have caught on this... target playing time is about right (1h), much of what slows down the game has been toned down (drives, scoring and setup, etc.), and I gather from the other thread that mechanics will be streamlined. I like that, welcome to 2012.

Corporate Support
A new release once in a while is a good way to keep interest. And official Erratas and Rulings. And some updates to the rules and team statistics should things become very broken or one-sided. To have an established company tackle this is a huge relief for me... we've all felt a bit let down by GW's abandonment of BB. I'm hoping for this to be a financial success for them to be able to support this "on the long run". Community managers cost a lot!

Then, a few things I know some BB fans will be very vocal but that I'm finding very hard to get offended about

Same ol' fantasy stuff
Yeah, it's elves and dwarves in space. Who cares, really... if Mantic is smart (and they seem to be), they'll throw in some squid-like race at some point to create a distinct feel for the game, but as long as the playing style vary greatly from one team to another, I'm quite content to see the familiar green faces and their friends. A bit more of concern to me is the fact that the usual stereotypes seem to persevere a lot (humans are average, orcs brutal, elves pass, dwarves tough but slow and Skav...ratmen fast and fragile). Why not fast and agile humans, or brutal kung-fu elves, or making dwavers masters of the "fast running plays"?

Affordable
It's nice for it to be affordable, but to be honest the problem with Blood Bowl was more with its availability and support than its price. Even 50$ for a team that lasts you a year is not that much for us rich family guys with lucrative jobs.

... But it's not Blood Bowl!
Yeah, I know.... get over it So there's an "active" referee, the grid is hexagonal and it's really a weird new fictional sport that has no equivalent on TV. So what... if it delivers on fast and fun gameplay, on last-minute "OMG I just made that GFI" moments, it'll be just fine.

Last, some topics where the jury is still out and that could go either way

The place of Randomness
Blood Bowl has this nice place for randomness, in that it's so uniformely everywhere that managing it becomes part of the game. From what I've read yet on Dreadball I'm really not sure about the event cards (I'm afraid it'll become like Monopoly cards .."Oh, go to jail again?"). If they dose this just right it could become fantastic (Think Catan Event Cards), but the devil really is in the details.

Community
Will the community kick-off just right and become as engaged and active as BB's? Who knows? If it does happen (and I'll try to be somewhere near that ), kinks and details will be much easier to smooth for Mantic as they'll have access to instant feedback to get the game better. If things go well and we see a "love story" blossom between Mantic and the Fans, I just know there will always be a layer of hardcore fans so that it will always be worthwhile for Mantic to put something new on the market... fans of these sports games are just THAT loyal

Playtest and balance
BB never really was designed to be balanced (as Halfling fans will attest), but at the end of the day, it did not really matter, now did it? Over the years we learned exactly which teams performed better and what approach works best(Hi ClaPOMB adepts!). Still, some measure of balance is needed for everyone to enjoy a "fair" game, and it's very difficult and long to do. Will Mantic be able to "measure twice, cut once" on rule changes and update to keep the game engaging? Sure hope so.

Sense of humor
Gritty sci-fi just doesn't rhyme with sense of humor by default. We'll have to see how this plays out, but there was always a lighthearted fun to be had with BloodBowl when your Troll eats your Star Goblin or when something goes wrong with the Explosive Rune you got as an Inducement. That's without Bob and Jim who always could throw a bit of humor around. Mantic will have to find their niche: too serious and we'll end up with a drab game, too funky and it'll become Clown Ball.

and last but not least:

Is this game fun?
Kinda matters, doesn't it?

Conclusion
Wow... that turned out to be longish. Sorry about that, but I'll sum up saying I'm just glad someone is picking up the money GW seem to be leaving on the table, and if they do a good job out of it I think they've just won themselves some loyal fanbase for quite a while!

Interesting read.

My thoughts on the Kickstarter in General.

1.) Looks like it will be a fun game.
2.) I personally find it a bit expensive for the contents
3.) At this price point for the contents, I'm currently just waiting for the regular realse, and I'll scoop it up for 25% off.
4.) It's obvious that all the stuff was ready before hand.
5,) kickstarter funding is a no brainer way of getting free advertising, buillding a day 1 communuty for the game, and pre-order vehicle to secure funding for the initial run.

**Black Nexus**

buillding a day 1 communuty for the game

And this is bad because what, you might actually have an opponent to play against?

3.) At this price point for the contents, I'm currently just waiting for the regular realse, and I'll scoop it up for 25% off.

You can almost gaurantee that if you go that, you'll be paying more. Just look at Kings of War!

**Taarnak**

adamsouza wrote:

My thoughts on the Kickstarter in General.

1.) Looks like it will be a fun game.
2.) I personally find it a bit expensive for the contents
3.) At this price point for the contents, I'm currently just waiting for the regular realse, and I'll scoop it up for 25% off.
4.) It's obvious that all the stuff was ready before hand.
5,) kickstarter funding is a no brainer way of getting free advertising, buillding a day 1 communuty for the game, and pre-order vehicle to secure funding for the initial run.

1. I agree. Especially love the not resetting after a point is scored.

2. Right now, I might agree with you. However, there have already been several models added to the base game, and Mantic have hinted at more things, such as a 3D playing field. I think it will be a great value by the end of all this.

3. And you might still end up paying more and getting less.

4. Why the frig would it not be. In fact, they have said several times that the first 4 teams (at least) were planned, as well as the referee figure. They would be complete idiots to bring out a new game with 2 teams and NOT plan ahead. I really don't understand the bile at this. The Kickstarter has already allowed them to do the referee in plastic and include it in all the base games, as well as add several new sculpts to the teams. Referee would have been done anyway, but separately and in metal. Extra poses for the teams seem to be entirely a result of the Kickstarter.

5. I agree. And I don't know if you think that is a bad thing. I don't.

I, for one, am looking forward to the new stuff that they do as stretch goals. Planned ahead or not...

~Eric

**adamsouza**

No bile. Was just a list of thoughts on variuos matters brought up in this thread.

I really do hope this turns out like the Kings of War Kickstarter and lots more goodies get thrown in, and I will gladly throw in if it does, but right now it's pay full retail and get an extra 2 star players and 4 plastic guys. I don't use star players when I play Bloodbowl and I don't know enough about the game to decide now if it's worth ponying up $150 just to have them included.

I really hope this game succeeds and the kickstarter does really well and they toss more stuff in to sweeten the deal. Right now it's just not sweet enough for my taste.

With any luck it will turn out like the Bones or Zombicide kickstarters and go from okay to "can't miss"

**Azazelx**

scarletsquig wrote:

The KoW Kickstarter started with a whole bunch of stuff that Mantic was going to do anyway as well, the Ogres and Werewolves were concepted and planned for production regardless of what happened in the Kickstarter.

The KoW kickstarter wasn't really "about" anything. It was an unfocused mess of a campaign that took everyone by surprise.and Ronnie & co scrambled to keep apace. It was a very different beast to this one, which is very much a new, polished, planned campaign. I'd go so far as to say that the only thing this and the KoW campaign have in common ae the fact that the same people happen to be running it.

Wouldn't be surprised to see this end with around 90 minis total for the striker level, (8x10 mini teams + 8 MVPS + ref + trophy). Possibly even more, it all depends on how far it rolls.

I hope so. It's still got a month, after all. They certainly haven't hit any kind of critical mass of value yet though. I'd say it risks having the same kind of slowdown that Relic Knights had, which led to a lot of people dropping out. Making additional teams "free" pack-ins would certainly help, as opposed to having them as add-ons. We do know they have another, or a different board planned though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Black Nexus wrote:
buillding a day 1 communuty for the game

And this is bad because what, you might actually have an opponent to play against?

Who said this was a bad thing? Just because I (or anyone else) aren't rabid "Mantic can do no wrong" fanbois. doesn't mean we don't like Mantic or aren't going in on the Kickstarter. (well, except Kroot). It's not a binary discussion where everything is either rotten or peachy-keen. It's possible to like or support a concept while still remaining critical or analysing choices, decisions or statements.

I'll grant that it's easy to fall into that trap with "I HATE YOU AND EVERYTHING THAT YOU STAND FOR." -type criticisms, such as those made by Kroothawk. Replies can then easily fall into the opposite extreme, especially when being posted by those who feel passionately for a company/project/concept. The best stance to take in any argument is a reasonable one, recognising that almost everything has good points and bad, and conceding when the other side has a good point as well as the positive points in whatever it is being argued about.

Wholly positive or wholly negative arguments and attitudes often don't really help any healthy discussion, as they tend to polarise those who don't feel exactly the same way, and discussions then devole into (virtual or real) shouting maches where everything the other guy says MUST BE WRONG DAMMIT.

**adamsouza**

Just noticed something on the kickstarter.

The description lists them as 8 man teams, up from the original 6, but the graphic now says and shows 10 man teams.

Are they getting ahead of themselves, or did I miss an update or something ?

**Azazelx**

English Assassin wrote:
RiTides wrote:
It just bothers me that they started out with an $80 box with only 16 figs. Makes it super easy to add more figs to the box when you start that low.

Every "miniatures board game" that I can think of comes with more figs than that (Descent, Super Dungeon Explore, and of course the recent Zombiecide and Sedition Wars).

Though I entirely agree that the starting set of sixteen figures looked more than a little parsimonious compared with the competition, bear in mind that Mantic are a UK company, and that $80 (£50 over here) wouldn't buy you in the UK a copy of an $80 US game like Descent, Dust Tactics or Super Dungeon Explore, all of which retail over here in the vicinity of £75 ($120 to you).

Why do people post misinformation when the actual details are so easy to find? SDE is the only one of the three games you quoted that goes for that amount. I'd suggest it's also at least in part due to it being because despite being based in the US, FFG have proper UK distribution channels, while CMON has to bundle up a containerload of stuff, as we've seen with their KS projects. Mantic would appear to hopefully have good UK distribution, as they're a UK-based company.

Descent 2nd Edition - £59.99 before retailer discount.
Dust Tactics Revised - £59.99 before retailer discount.
Super Dungeon Explore - £74.99before retailer discount.

I'd hope for Mantic's sake that they do load up the boxed set a bit more, as a perception of poor value in terms of miniature count, combined with the average component qualty from their previous outings (poor reputation from the non-hardcore punter - which is what we here on Dakka, Quirkworthy, BGG etc are) doesn't exactly set them up for runaway success.

**Dysartes**

adamsouza> Given the RefBot is now listed on there as wel, my guess is the model count on the image now includes the two alternative sculpts that were the third stretch goal. The description on the page hasn't been updated to keep up.

**notprop**

adamsouza wrote:
Just noticed something on the kickstarter.

The description lists them as 8 man teams, up from the original 6, but the graphic now says and shows 10 man teams.

Are they getting ahead of themselves, or did I miss an update or something ?

It's almost as if they're playing silly buggers and have lost track of themselves.

Anyway they need to add allot more before im willing to back rather than wait for a discounted box, back this for $150 odd isn't making hat much sense to me at the moment. I must be over that initial Kickstarter buzz that saw me back everything for the first month!

**scarletsquig**

Can people bother to read the OP and the list of stretch goals?

That graphic is what all copies of the boxed game contain now, updated to include the additions from the $40k and $60k stretch goals. There is no "deceit", there is no "silly buggers", they're just showing people what is currently included in the game, just as Reaper updated their Vampire level pledge to show the new minis added to it... same goes for every single other KS that has had a visual guide to what you get.

As far as I can tell, the "original" plan for DreadBall was for the ref to be metal instead of plastic, and the 4 extra alternate sculpts definitely were not, under any circumstance "going to be included anyway".

In the copy of the rules I have, right in front of me, right now, it mentions absolutely nothing about there being 10 players in the box, it refers to 8 players as being the number you get in the starting teams in the box constantly throughout, to the point where I didn't notice the fact that you could use up to 14 players when initially answering questions about team size for this game.

Conspiracy theory all you like, but you're not entirely right on this, and real value definitely is being adding to the core box by increasing the mini count by 20% and the sculpt variety by 66%.

Fact of the matter is that the contents of the box are totally subject to how much money Mantic has, which is entirely subject to how much cash it raises from this kickstarter. So, we're going to see the contents change.

More free stuff will be added to that image, and more people on Dakka will continue to complain that "it was going to be in the box anyway, the liars!", completely ignoring the entirely of posts such as this one.

Plans from any given company change based on how much capital that company has access to. Shock Horror!

Plastic miniature production is extremely expensive if making a small print run, but really cheap on large print runs (moulds cost tens of thousands, materials costs are cents per mini, lower than what it costs to pack them) - in case you've had your head buried under a rock for the last month, the Reaper KS was a very good example of this.

I bet if the KS hits $1million and the basic box set ends up with 50 minis in it, someone on Dakka will still be whining about "mantic are liars, they were going to do this anyway!".

I guess I should be grateful that we're having a slightly less amoebic level of debate than the usual "Mantic stole the colour green from GW, the elves suck lol" that is typical filler for half of the threads about them.

Also, there's absolutely nothing wrong with waiting until the game goes on general sale, or waiting until the last minute to pledge.. complaining that it isn't enough of a good deal already after only 4 days is kinda like stating the obvious.

That is what most people do with most kickstarters, they wait until the last 2-3 days before backing to see if the freebies have reached the point where they're interested.

One could present the argument that it might actually be in their favour to back something early, to lend more momentum to the kickstarter.. but for whatever reason, that simply doesn't happen, and the vast bulk of people will not touch the pledge button until the last second.

**Zweischneid**

scarletsquig wrote:

I bet if the KS hits $1million and the basic box set ends up with 50 minis in it, someone on Dakka will still be whining about "mantic are liars, they were going to do this anyway!".
.

Sorry to tell you, but this "whining" didn't just come from anywhere.

There is a list of product scheduled for release, which includes the Veer-Myn and Forgefather MVP. They already asked their distributers to make room on the shelves for those.

Yet in the Kickstarter they explicitly said they will only make them if they reach stretch goal x.

Those two observations are in direct contradiction of each other, so the assumption that they are "false" stretch goals designed to "delude" backers into having more of an impact into creating the game than they otherwise would, seems a likely conclusion.

Likewise for the Ref. You keep harping on about a supposed metal ref, but there is no evidence for that. And be extrapolating from the "lies" they told about the Veer-Myn MVP and Forgefather MVP, it seems no implausible to assume that the same thing went down for the Ref (and there was no separate metal-Ref on the initial release list).

And if the Ref was a ruse, than by implication, the variant sculpts would be too if they were (as you claim) only enabled by the Ref-gone-plastic.

Once again, if you just dismiss this as whining, you are doing both yourself and Mantic a great disservice. Every complaint here is voiced by people genuinly interested in the game on principle. Bones, etc.. all have their own complaints to deal with, I am sure. But this is a troubling observation by fans about Mantic and Mantic in particular.

If you do have such a good line to Mantic, you would do both them and their fans a great service by a) not assisting them in a half-hearted cover-up and b) recommend them to clarify the issue in an open, public and transparent way.

The "GW-example" shows that "secrecy" and taking your very own fans and customers for fools is usually not well recieved.

By making a concious statement of transparency and by opening all their books to their Kickstarter fans and holding nothing back, this Kickstarter would quickly be transformed from the "cynical" pre-order pitch it is now into a genuinely shared "we-make-this-project-reality-together" sort of experience that make the best and most successful Kickstarters out there go truly viral and truly earn their organisers millions.

**notprop**

Yeah thats the problem with the so called fanantics/freelance marketers that these companies use, in that they're just a bit too close to the project. So no discussion, sorry I meant whining, Just be pleased you are getting "free" stuff.

What a turn off they are and increasingly noticeable on allot of Kickstarter projects.

**frozenwastes**

Zweischneid wrote:

Yet in the Kickstarter they explicitly said they will only make them if they reach stretch goal x.

No they have not.

I don't see the word "only" anywhere. Or any other language that states that it's kickstarter or nothing for these miniatures. Kickstarter does not have an exclusivity contract that says that if you don't get something funded, you can never get money from somewhere else and make it. That would be stupid.

If they hit the stretch goal, they'll make the MVPs. As part of the Kickstarter project. And the backers will get it. If they don't, it won't be part of the Kickstarter. They may find the money somewhere else and still make it. They may even have backup plans to make sure the product they want to make gets made even if the Kickstarter fails.

There is no deception going on here except your self-deception.

**scarletsquig**

a) not assisting them in a half-hearted cover-up

Okay, so now I'm a liar, and I don't have a rulebook that lists 8 players as the starting teams that you get in the box in front of me right now, as I'm typing this?
Magic, got it.

Thanks for clearing that up.

There is a list of product scheduled for release

Retailer lists are subject to change. I have seen loads of these from Mantic over the past 2 years, and *loads of times* they list products which are either:

- Not released at all later.
- Named incorrectly.
- Priced incorrecty
- Release date is listed incorrectly.

You are clinging to that list like it is carved in stone, when it really isn't. This has already been mentioned earlier in the thread.

By making a concious statement of transparency and by opening all their books to their Kickstarter fans

Again, with this bitterness about the .pdf not being posted up for free. Why do all of the posters making a big deal about "Mantic are liars" in this thread always add a suffix complaining about this?

I'd love to post some screens of the rulebook showing "8 players in the starting teams" to prove that I'm not under the direct mind control of the evil Manticorp via the aerials on their moonbase, but I'm starting to feel like that that would be about as productive as a hippo trying to make friends with a swarm of pirana, so I'll bid you all a good day.

**frozenwastes**

@scarletsquig - I'm pretty sure it's emotional and not rational. There's something going on here that has Zweischneid seeing conspiracy and deceit wherever he looks when it comes to this project.

For the lurkers: Remember that kickstarter does not demand exclusivity. Nor does it demand that you not make any plans about producing miniatures through other means. Mantic has never said they'd only make the MVP if the Kickstarter stretch goals hit. They just said that if the stretch goal is hit, then they are funded as part of the kickstarter project and backers will get one. And in some cases, stretch goals will improve the product itself.*

Reaper was going to make more Bones miniatures even without the kickstarter. They just wanted to do a kickstarter to finance it to get it done faster and to have a better expansion of the line. That doesn't mean Reaper was lying about miniatures they were going to make anyway or some such nonsense.

I'm not a backer of this Kickstarter. I've already blown my miniatures budget on metal historical miniatures for the next month or two and even if I hadn't, I'm not sure I want a sports based miniature game right now. I've got enough projects on the go without adding another and so far, Dreadball is not wowing me. It looks impressive, but not enough to displace any of my existing projects.

* I happen to think stretch goals that fund a projects general improvement for all time and for all purchases are WAY better than ones that are exclusives to the backers.

.

**Sining**

So much drama over something that should be as simple as "Hmm, this looks cool. Think I'll back it" or "Nah, not my thing".

-_-