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 scarletsquig wrote:

a) not assisting them in a half-hearted cover-up

Okay, so now I'm a liar, and I don't have a rulebook that lists 8 players as the starting teams that you get in the box in front of me right now, as I'm typing this?
Magic, got it.

Thanks for clearing that up.


I'd love to post some screens of the rulebook showing "8 players in the starting teams" to prove that I'm not under the direct mind control of the evil Manticorp via the aerials on their moonbase, but I'm starting to feel like that that would be about as productive as a hippo trying to make friends with a swarm of pirana, so I'll bid you all a good day.

Well, you keep assuming that actually going transparent will not change anyone's position. But have you tried?

If you could so easily dispel all doubts and prove all naysayers wrong, and clearly want to do so, why not do it?

I am more than willing to eat my words and apologize in great length if you have a scan that shows that the contents of the box (not the player teams, the contents) are, indeed, only 8 players per side and a metal ref*.

Hell, if I am proven wrong, I will pledge US$300 right away to show you this is serious to me and I am willing to retract my earlier statements.

[edit]
*That is, the pdf should be up within the next one or two hours. Shouldn't take more than minute to upload a page. I am not gonna trust a pdf going up... say... tomorrow to take me up on my bet.

^ Get your wallet out, Zwei.



I am of course, posting this knowing full well that "no concrete proof of metal ref" is going to be your get-out clause.

Also, I don't have access to the back of the official packaging for a contents list, because that hasn't been printed yet, because the contents are not set in stone currently, because this kickstarter is clearly changing the initial contents of it, which is why you were so comfortable with making that bet.

 scarletsquig wrote:


I am of course, posting this knowing full well that "no concrete proof of metal ref" is going to be your get-out clause.

That scan is the starting team (which will likely in the book as it is, even if they add another 50 figures).

The book must have a "box contents" page, or not?

And while I don't want to "wiggle" out of my clause, you are the only person I have ever heard mention or talk of a metal Ref. Or the "transition" from metal to plastic as a matter of fact. Your information must come from somewhere? At least post a link to where you first heard about the metal Ref that you bring up so vigorously time and again to make your point? I'm willing to settle for that.

For all I know, the Ref may still be made from metal, or from plastic, or from green cheese. The Mantic stretch goal doesn't talk about material, just that she will be included if the goal is met (without reference to materials at all).

^ Sure, beasts of war video, you can see Ronnie stating this well in advance of the KS being launched, and, just to absolutely convince you that he isn't just lying he is holding a metal Dreadball ref model in his hands while he says this.

At 5:25:

Ronnie Rention wrote:If we start at the beginning the ref is going to be a metal blister, if we get the funding, we can put him in the game

There isn't really a straight-up contents list, it just says what the types of components represent, and that there are card and counters and dice that are used for different things), but there are constant references to 8 player teams, to the point where someone earlier in this thread had to correct me to state that 14 is the max because I made an error there.

Alright. I guess I do have to eat my words on the metal ref and apologize.

"Unspecific" contents page?

Anyhow... I guess I'll just shut up now before I loose more money and hope the game will be good.




And on Twitter.

Zweischneid, you are a man of honour, it is extremely rare that people are willing to put hard cash to their word.

*tips hat*

Enjoy your game!

Ok, I came here hoping to get more news but dreading I was going to have to throw some peeps on ignore but what do I see?

Someone actually going through with a wager they made on the internet over being right or wrong?



Now back to getting more Rats on tables and seeing what the next stretch goal is!

For those interested in a little more info on gameplay, I got the chance to play DreadBall at the weekend. I was asked to do an article about the game and here it is:
http://jonathanpeace.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/review-dreadball-gameplay.html

I'll be doing a full Match Report in the near future.

EDIT: and in one of the pics just for clarity you can see a metal refbot - just undercoated black I'm afraid but she's there (and was a real spanner in the works when I was trying to foul)

... well... we appear to have veered down a somewhat unexpected route but, thankfully, that minor diversion appears to be over, so we'll carry on as "normal".

 scipio.au wrote:
Why do people post misinformation when the actual details are so easy to find? SDE is the only one of the three games you quoted that goes for that amount. I'd suggest it's also at least in part due to it being because despite being based in the US, FFG have proper UK distribution channels, while CMON has to bundle up a containerload of stuff, as we've seen with their KS projects. Mantic would appear to hopefully have good UK distribution, as they're a UK-based company.

Steady on Scipio, I posted the RRPs (after looking carefully for stark US-UK differences) in good faith from (largeish UK geeky stuff chain) Travelling Man's printed catalogue. Even if you set them all £65 (the pre-discount price quoted for both Descent and Dust Tactics on their website), the difference is just shy of $25, the equivalent for a US purchaser paying more than $100 for any of the above. My point stands that the prices of board games and are - thanks partly to the costs of distribution, partly to higher VAT, and partly to American (and European) manufacturers being in the habit of simply substituting a £ for the $ (or €) sign when setting the RRP - simply set at a significantly higher point over here in the UK.

I''m not in the business of defending Mantic - beyond this and Pandora, I've little real interest in their games - and as I said agree that the contents of the basic DreadBall looked on the face of it pretty miserly (an American could buy Fantasy Flight's Conan for the same price, or Twilight Imperium for $10 more). I stand, however, by my argument that once inclusive postage (something US backers - unlike everybody else - aren't used to paying) and UK-US pricing differentials are taken into account, even the unimproved DreadBall's price doesn't look so unrealistic from Mantic's perspective, with the caveat that they would, in my opinion, have been wiser to set the price lower and charge postage on top, which would have avoided some of these (increasingly ill-natured) arguments over what looks to be a fun, light-hearted game.

judgedoug wrote:
Did anyone post this?

Jake Thornton, designer for Dreadball, wrote a nice article about it and Blood Bowl.

A quick snippet:

"It was obvious from the outset that whatever DreadBall was or was not, it would be compared to GW’s Blood Bowl. Whether this was going to be favourable or not depended on the individual, but compared it would certainly be. This is exactly what is happening now, and so I would like to take a few moments to discuss the similarities and differences from my point of view as designer, and explain my decisions and talk a bit about where the concept for DB came from."

http://quirkworthy.com/2012/08/27/dreadball-and-the-elephant-in-the-room/

JP1138 wrote:For those interested in a little more info on gameplay, I got the chance to play DreadBall at the weekend. I was asked to do an article about the game and here it is:
http://jonathanpeace.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/review-dreadball-gameplay.html

I'll be doing a full Match Report in the near future.

Those were both very interesting reading, thanks!

At first I did think that the 'Striker' set was just for the first 100 people, and thought that was a little unfair considering all of the extra stuff that is now being included in that pledge amount, but then I scrolled down a bit.

Jake Thornton seems to be a lot better at games design than he used to be in the old WD battle reports , think I will probably give this a dabble on the basis of that!

@Scarletsquig: Does the game function without the cards that come with the boxed game? I.e. are the details included in the *.pdf?

@Alex: You need the cards. Well, with the preview .pdf I have anyway. Not sure if the final .pdf delivered with this will include printable cards, but it would be cool if it did.

There's been plenty of requests for separate card packs, counter packs and pitches on the kickstarter, with hints that those might appear at some point, depending on how well the KS does.

/sigh

 scarletsquig wrote:

As far as I can tell, the "original" plan for DreadBall was for the ref to be metal instead of plastic, and the 4 extra alternate sculpts definitely were not, under any circumstance "going to be included anyway".

You have absolutely no idea what their "original" plan or what was going to happen under any circumstances.

Unless you work for Mantic, as part of the leadership team, as opposed to being a guy in the warehouse, as opposed to being a Superfan, you aren't privvy to their internal discussions, plans or otherwise. They may tell you one thing, but just because they (or any business) tell you something, does not automagically mean it's true. Ultimately, you're just another guy on the internet, albeit one they like and find useful. You "know" what they want you to "know". Just don't think for a second that you know their plans for anything in any kind of detail.

Fact of the matter is that the contents of the box are totally subject to how much money Mantic has, which is entirely subject to how much cash it raises from this kickstarter. So, we're going to see the contents change.
Plans from any given company change based on how much capital that company has access to. Shock Horror!

Again. No.
They made $350k from the KoW KS. I'll let you in on a little secret now. But don't tell anyone, K?

Businesses move capital around. They certainly do have a bunch of commitments for that KoW Kickstarter, and will have some of the money aside in some forms, but it's unlikely that they will have $330k sitting in the bank right now in a special account with "do not touch or use for other things" written on the top. Now, I'm not for a moment suggesting that they won't live up to their KoW KS obligations - so don't get me wrong there. I am saying that since they're not idiots (mentioned that earlier, too!) they'll be making that money work for them as best they can, right now.


Now you're welcome to believe anything and everything you're shoveled about the game initially going to only include 12 figures for an $80 price point, and the ref was going to be a separate metal figure with this release, and all the rest, but that really only hurts your credibility in the same way that KH's endless bile and hatred hurt his credibility.

But maybe there's a half-truth buried in there. Maybe the original plan for this game was a regular direct-to-retail release, and in that case the game would have included 12 figures, no ref, and a cardboard pitch. It might have retailed for $40 or $50 as well. But the moment they decided to go KS, they knew they'd easily hit the $40k target at the very least, and so the ref in plastic became a given, along with more players and a bit more besides. At that point, they would have adjusted the RRP upwards to $80 - no doubt in anticipation of what they plan to include once they get another $200k in hand. Again, they're not fools, and they'd be aware that their game is solidly overpriced given the (currently listed) contents. We all know they'll hit at least $200k. That's a pretty safe bet for a Blood Bowl analogue in sci-fi built by ex-GW people. After all - These guys who no-one has ever heard of made $136k, and we know that Ronnie isn't insane like Felix is (and Felix still met his goal, and then some). - 3rd and 7th posts down for some quality. Haven't heard a peep from Felix since he took my money, either.

The hope is that it gets enough presales via KS to actually make it worth that $80. The risk right now is the momentum has pretty much stopped in it's tracks - the early pledgers are in, and there's simply not enough value to attract the next tier of people. - And we're miles away from the last-day rush.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
So much drama over something that should be as simple as "Hmm, this looks cool. Think I'll back it" or "Nah, not my thing".
-_-

It's an interesting and vigourous discussion, for the most part. If this board was only a mix of "awesome, dude" and "nah, not interested" it's be as boring as all hell, and not worth my (or many others') time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:

I'd love to post some screens of the rulebook showing "8 players in the starting teams" to prove that I'm not under the direct mind control of the evil Manticorp via the aerials on their moonbase, but I'm starting to feel like that that would be about as productive as a hippo trying to make friends with a swarm of pirana, so I'll bid you all a good day.

Just to reiterate. The PDF book you have may have been the original plan for a non-KS project. The book itself may be subject to change. I understand that PDFs are published from original documents, and those original documents may in fact be modified at any time, and then the "publish as PDF" button can make a new PDF with major or minor changes.
Or, in fact, whatever suits at the time.

gah! spelling!

God damn even I'm impressed Zwei.

Bravo.

 English Assassin wrote:

Steady on Scipio, I posted the RRPs (after looking carefully for stark US-UK differences) in good faith from (largeish UK geeky stuff chain) Travelling Man's printed catalogue. Even if you set them all £65 (the pre-discount price quoted for both Descent and Dust Tactics on their website), the difference is just shy of $25, the equivalent for a US purchaser paying more than $100 for any of the above. My point stands that the prices of board games and are - thanks partly to the costs of distribution, partly to higher VAT, and partly to American (and European) manufacturers being in the habit of simply substituting a £ for the $ (or €) sign when setting the RRP - simply set at a significantly higher point over here in the UK.

I got my prices from Maelstrom's catalogue. Wayland has Descent for 59 (same as Maelstrom) and Dust for 65 (before discounts). Still a decent chunk off from 75, and it could be that Travelling Man's prices are a bit above the norm. We certainly have places like that over here. I don't take issue with your other points, but 15 quid isn't an insignificant amount when we're talking about numbers between 60 and 75 - it's 20-25% - so far from comparative to Dust/Descent's content count.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Alright. I guess I do have to eat my words on the metal ref and apologize.

Now that's what I'm talking about - a willingness to admit mistakes. If only there was more of that on the internet.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I did want to get in for a while. Hence why I was lurking here (ok, lurking may not be the right word, but you know what I mean). I probably would've pledged at some point either way, so I didn't "bet away" my children's lunch money if that's what you're worried about.

The added drama may or may not be a bonus, even if it was drama about me being wrong instead of me heroically proving a point.

Certainly will make my first game of DreadBall that much more memorable!

 scarletsquig wrote:
There's been plenty of requests for separate card packs, counter packs and pitches on the kickstarter, with hints that those might appear at some point, depending on how well the KS does.

Even if they weren't separate, they could lump all the non-team stuff together and sell it with 'n' teams of the customer's choice.

Only $800 and change til the ver-meen are in. Can't wait to see the next stretch goal item. C'mon female team in tight leather outfits!! Lol

Now you're welcome to believe anything and everything you're shoveled about the game initially going to only include 12 figures for an $80 price point, and the ref was going to be a separate metal figure, and all the rest, but that really only hurts your credibility in the same way that KH's endless bile and hatred hurt his credibility.

16 figures.

Credibility = "I may not know everything, but what I do know, I do tend to either back it up with hard facts or have fact-based reasons behind an educated guess about it".

Got any pictures of the evil Mantic moonbase?

Perhaps some grainy cellphone footage of Ronnie and Orcy in a hot tub full of kool-aid cackling about all the DreadBall copies sold to the dumb sheeple who believed the corporate propaganda?

How about a detailed analysis of the gencon video that explains why the metal referee mini in the video is a 'shop because you can tell by the pixels and from having seen quite a few 'shops in your time?

Provide any of those, and I will write a forum post explaining why GW owns the copyright to Babylonian mythology and the colour green.

P.S.

I just do not see me liking this game, I enjoyed Blood Bowl due to it being funny, I think this may be taken to seriously.

^ There are some funny parts, particularly the 6 pages dedicated to all the different fouls you can attempt to make, and I'm particularly fond of how casualties are dealt with during leagues...

..you can either spend money to heal your injured players, or gain money by harvesting and selling their organs.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Can people bother to read the OP and the list of stretch goals?

Somehow I thought the Kickstarter page itself was a little more official than your post so I read it instead.

It would have been nice if you just answered the question instead of referring to the OP.

Snce the OP pretty much just parrots the Kickstarter page I assume there would be no magical insights there.

From the kickstarter page

ACHIEVED – New Alternatively Posed Players for your Teams!

If we pass through this goal, we’ll be able to add four new figures to DreadBall – The Futuristic Sports Game – two Corporation players and two Marauder Players. Not only this, but you’ll also allow us to give these new figures alternative poses for extra variety in the set!

6 Figures + 2 Additional sculpts = 8

The teams are now 10. I'm not complaining, I just wanted to know what I was missing, which I did not find on the kickstarter page.

^ Sorry about the terseness there, it was written more as a response to the reply to your post rather than your post itself.

There have always been 8 figures per team listed in the picture, and in the description, at all points in time. The alternate sculpt $60k stretch goal raises that to 10 per team.

There has never at any point in time been 6 per team for a total of 12 minis in the starter box, despite multiple people in this thread constantly and inaccurately stating that as fact (see scipios post a few posts up). It was 8 per team for a total of 16 right from day 1 of the kickstarter.

The stretch goal was 2 Additional Sculpts, and 2 Copies of each IIRC.


Also I like how I was in the background for almost all of that BOW video, but didn't notice them interviewing Ronnie at all during the show.

Woot! 90k achieved; space-Skaven time!

Acrylic counters coming! Me likey!

REALLY really want a 3D acrylic board. Even if it was $50 add-on. (I know how expensive acrylic can get, we offer laser-cut acrylic where I work... big sheets are expensive)

judgedoug wrote:
Acrylic counters coming! Me likey!

REALLY really want a 3D acrylic board. Even if it was $50 add-on. (I know how expensive acrylic can get, we offer laser-cut acrylic where I work... big sheets are expensive)

Add to that acrylic clear bases with the position name etched into them so figures can be mounted on a clear base which is larger than the current litle circle thing.

 scarletsquig wrote:

^ Sorry about the terseness there, it was written more as a response to the reply to your post rather than your post itself.

There have always been 8 figures per team listed in the picture, and in the description, at all points in time. The alternate sculpt $60k stretch goal raises that to 10 per team.

Thank you,.

My mistake then about the number of models. I remembered someone mentioning 12 before the Kickstarter started. I think it probably had to do with 12 on the pitch in the promo pictures.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, to be perfectly honest, I did want to get in for a while. Hence why I was lurking here (ok, lurking may not be the right word, but you know what I mean). I probably would've pledged at some point either way, so I didn't "bet away" my children's lunch money if that's what you're worried about.

The added drama may or may not be a bonus, even if it was drama about me being wrong instead of me heroically proving a point.

Certainly will make my first game of DreadBall that much more memorable!

Hey, I'm impressed as well. I see I got you wrong-- please accept my apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghiest1 wrote:I just do not see me liking this game, I enjoyed Blood Bowl due to it being funny, I think this may be taken to seriously.

I'm actually not sure Mantic ever does anything in a serious tone. For example:

scarletsquig wrote:..you can either spend money to heal your injured players, or gain money by harvesting and selling their organs.

I found out a friend of mine pledged on this project. So I'll wait to play it with him and see if I want to get a team of my own (or a copy of the game).

.