Power Swords vs Power Fists for Tactical Squads

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**Demdiddydizzy**

I think I'll run power swords/mauls on Tacticals then, and run a fist on my sternguard squad.

**TheCaptain**

Ailaros wrote:

But the axe doesn't ID anything

Tell that to him.

**Demdiddydizzy**

Ahhh Grots. So annoying. So numerous XD

**Leth**

Roboute wrote:
Leth wrote:Although this is probably not quite the advice you want to hear but I would go with neither on the sergeant. You do not want your marines in combat and across the army the number of points you will be spending could be better spent on more troops or actual CC specialists.

(Assumed against MEQ)
Regular attacks is going to be .25 wounds or .33 on the charge
Power sword is going to do .75 wounds or 1 on the charge
Power Maul is going to do .42 wounds or .55 wounds on the charge
Power Fist is going to do .88333 wounds or 1.25 on the charge
An extra marine will do much more over the course of the game either via bolter wounds or just providing another body for the unit.

At most I would give him a melta bomb and combi weapon, but I am not much of a fan for combi weapons. I would rather save the points and buy a model who can do it all the time.

I would rather take two meltas/multimeltas in sternguard than combi meltas. You want to be in rapid fire range for your sternguard anyway so why not fire a few melta shots as well, they still do a good job of killing infantry and for the same points as a combi melta. Also if you have vulkan then even better as they are now twin-linked EVERY turn

I'd like to point out that your numbers for the regular Marines are wrong. The gap between regular Marines and power weapons is actually greater. Assuming we're talking about Sternguard, it should be looking like this:

Regular attacks - .17 wounds or .25 on the charge

If you were talking about regular Tac marines, it would be .08 wounds or .17 on the charge.

I was actually talking about the regular attacks of a sergeant without any upgrades since that is the baseline we would compare it to. I think I was right on the numbers for that one

**Amaya**

Neither. The minimal amount of damage either one would do in close combat is not worth spending the points elsewhere to beef up something more useful. Against a dedicated melee unit or walker a tactical squad will lose, probably badly. Against non MEQs and non assault units, a power sword will only add a couple wounds to a combat resolution that you should win handily.

The only reason to ever take PFs was to give the squad a chance to ID something or pop a walker. Thanks to challenges and sniper fire it is a threat easily removed.

**Roboute**

Leth wrote:
I was actually talking about the regular attacks of a sergeant without any upgrades since that is the baseline we would compare it to. I think I was right on the numbers for that one

Yeah, that was my bad. Misunderstood what you meant by regular attacks. The difference isn't all that huge in terms of Wounds dealt, but in those Sergeant-on-Sergeant battles, a power weapon can make all the difference. Again, the power weapon is definitely a tradeoff, and is basically insurance against a certain subset of situations. I'm not trying to argue that you should take them (I usually don't), just that it's not a poor choice (as, in 6th, I've come to see the fist as on Sergeants).

**farrowking37**

Exergy wrote:
farrowking37 wrote:
Exergy wrote:
farrowking37 wrote:

As for the axe, might as well take a fist at that point.

10 points and 1 less attack. 3 attacks are better than 2. You are going to be wounding on 3+ instead of 2+ but you will still do more damage to T4 with the axe and its cheaper.

true, but the fist hits at s 8 instead of s 4, so the 2 attacks you will get are more likely to put down wounds.

axes strike at str5 not 4
for T3 it makes little difference(ID only)
for T4 its a slight advantage.
for T5+ and armor the fist is obviously better but most things in the game are T3 or T4

IIRC the fist is a special melee weapon, and still penetrates all armor, which kinda negats the reason why you would use the axe besides the extra hit at a lower strength.

**Leth**

its 10 points cheaper has an extra attack and wounds on a 3 instead of a 2 against most targets. Not a bad trade off.

Axe is 3 attacks .75 wounds
Fist is 2 attacks .83333 wounds

So for the points the axe is much more efficient.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Leth wrote:
its 10 points cheaper has an extra attack and wounds on a 3 instead of a 2 against most targets. Not a bad trade off.

Axe is 3 attacks .75 wounds
Fist is 2 attacks .83333 wounds

So for the points the axe is much more efficient.

Depends on what you're fighting. Against MCs, vehicles, models with T5+ and multi-wound models the Power Fist wins out by quite a bit.

**Leth**

Yea but if you are fighting those with your normal tactical squads something has gone very wrong and they are most likely boned anyway as they challenge sergeant he either refuses or gets killed, eitherway he is out of the fight.

**Roboute**

Leth wrote:
Yea but if you are fighting those with your normal tactical squads something has gone very wrong and they are most likely boned anyway as they challenge sergeant he either refuses or gets killed, eitherway he is out of the fight.

Precisely, there's no more "hidden fist" who can take wounds off the target while the squad dies around him. Yeah, you still have Carnifexes and Trygons who are MCs and not characters, but by and large MCs can challenge you. Most multi-Wound models worth worrying about (Nobz, Paladins) can challenge. There's not much point in taking the power fist if the Sergeant's just going to die before he uses it.

**DarknessEternal**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Depends on what you're fighting. Against MCs, vehicles,

Tactical marines carry krak grenades for those.

And where does the idea that Walkers and MCs can challenge come from?

**SlyasR**

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
I think I'll run power swords/mauls on Tacticals then, and run a fist on my sternguard squad.

I dont find mauls attractive
am I missing something? I like to play my sergeants/characters and HQ with low AP-weaponry because low AP kills, AP 4-6 just doesnt get the job done

+2S make you str 6 and instagib t3-models, but there are not many multiwound t3 out there and against T6 models you really need low ap because they usually got better save than 4+

or am I missing something?

**Demdiddydizzy**

SlyasR wrote:
Demdiddydizzy wrote:
I think I'll run power swords/mauls on Tacticals then, and run a fist on my sternguard squad.

I dont find mauls attractive
am I missing something? I like to play my sergeants/characters and HQ with low AP-weaponry because low AP kills, AP 4-6 just doesnt get the job done

+2S make you str 6 and instagib t3-models, but there are not many multiwound t3 out there and against T6 models you really need low ap because they usually got better save than 4+

or am I missing something?

I'm guessing you're talking about axes?

**DarknessEternal**

SlyasR wrote:

+2S make you str 6 and instagib t3-models, but there are not many multiwound t3 out there and against T6 models you really need low ap because they usually got better save than 4+

Str 6, AP 4 and Str 4, AP 3 are exactly the same against something that is T6 Sv 3+.

AP 4 is effectively AP 3 against roughly half the codices, since they don't have 3+ saves. But that's really the thing about the power weapons. There's an obvious answer for which one is better in any given scenario, you just don't know what scenario you're in until after you've picked one.

**Leth**

So lets look at a maul vrs power sword statistically against MEQ

Maul - .416 wounds
Sword - .75 wounds

So in that situation it is worse, however now lets look at GEQ

Maul - 1.6666777 wounds
Sword - 1.3333 wounds

Maul is better against GEQ

Now TEQ

Maul - .2 wounds
Sword - .125

Maul is better against TEQ

You will find that against any target that does not have a 3+ save the maul is better than the sword. Now we also look at vehicles sure everyone has a krak grenade, however I would rather have the 3-4 attacks at strength 6 rather than the 1 per model limit.

So the maul is better against EVERYONE but people with a 3+ armor save. Not a bad trade off

**Demdiddydizzy**

I will usually be going against MEQ most likely at my FLGS. So, a sword would make more sense to me.

**Roboute**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Tactical marines carry krak grenades for those.

And where does the idea that Walkers and MCs can challenge come from?

Most MCs are also characters, which means they can challenge. Hive Tyrants, Tervigons, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, the Avatar, GK Dreadknights, C'Tan Shards ... it would probably be easier to list the MCs that can't challenge.

Walkers usually can't challenge, but at AV12 or below they aren't an issue anyways, hull points plus 4+ or 3+ to hit with krak grenades means that you'll get enough 6's in one or two rounds of combat.