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 Lynata wrote:

Still waiting on that supposed contradiction, though. Or are you retracting that comment?

Maybe you stop waiting? All I wanted was to clear the order of events.

++ danger: humor ahead. don't use in Grim-dark mode. ++

 Lynata wrote:

Because what I am holding dear is my reputation as fluff-nut.

You know, we have this piece of hi-tech : called Nußknacker.

 Lynata wrote:

How do you think it works for Ogryns?

Ogryns are clever, don't be fooled....

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
No.

Yes.

no no

* disclaimer: 1st of the eternal loop of no's *


++ back to common pseudo-objective replies++

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:With the fact that an overall command can move millions of them without translators?

Source pls.

See this great range of products of GW&co ? I doubt you have a chance to miss a source in that big pile.

 Lynata wrote:
Obviously, the fact that a single trooper's literacy or lack thereof is rather meaningless if he's never going to hold a book in his hand anyways, when all of these things are dealt with by other, more suitable personnell.

Obviously, the trooper not holding a book in his hands is punished ( see IIUP ).
Seems you like running in circles.


++ danger: reply not made with serious face ++

 Lynata wrote:

I think the Mordian Iron Guard and the Asgardian Rangers would like to have a word with you,

No problem I got cake, send them to me.

 Lynata wrote:

And this requires the common soldier in that regiment to be literate how ...?

It will save his life, so he has something to offer to the Emperor, maybe ?

 Lynata wrote:

I am open to continue this via private message, too.

This too.

 Lynata wrote:

I just can't stand what I am convinced are false claims to be posted where everyone can see them. People might end up actually believing it.

Since there are zero false claims in posts I wrote ( as everything seen on the web must be right ) and the chance people believe me are low, where is the risk? That one could make a mistake? Really? In a world of humans, mistakes are inevitable. Who says otherwise is a liar.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_renegades.html

^ this website actually hosts the Index Astartes article I mentioned earlier. Well worth a read!

to quote this source:

The long and proud history of these and other ancient chapters has to date shielded them from the attentions of the Ordo Hereticus, but other, less renowned chapters are not so immune to the Inquisition's scrutiny, and they may find themselves under investigation should an Inquisitor suspect serious heresy.

Found where the idea of increased protection may come from.

1hadhq wrote:Maybe you stop waiting? All I wanted was to clear the order of events.

That's not what you said. But okay, we can drop it.

1hadhq wrote:See this great range of products of GW&co ? I doubt you have a chance to miss a source in that big pile.

So in other words it's another potentially flawed memory.

1hadhq wrote:Obviously, the trooper not holding a book in his hands is punished ( see IIUP ).
Seems you like running in circles.

No, but you apparently do.

1hadhq wrote:It will save his life, so he has something to offer to the Emperor, maybe ?

It may also save his life if he actually wears a flak vest, yet some regiments go into battle bare-chested.
If may also save his life going into battle with a weapon, yet some regiments don't receive a sufficient number of them.
It may also save his life not stepping on a mine, yet some regiments are used to clear minefields for tanks.
It may also save his life sitting inside an armoured vehicle, yet some regiments ride into battle on horses.

Welcome to the Imperial Guard.

1hadhq wrote:to quote this source:
The long and proud history of these and other ancient chapters has to date shielded them from the attentions of the Ordo Hereticus, but other, less renowned chapters are not so immune to the Inquisition's scrutiny, and they may find themselves under investigation should an Inquisitor suspect serious heresy.

Yes, the important bit being "to date". Which is obvious, given that no investigation has happened so far.
Unless you include BL novels, which is when the whole house of cards comes crashing down, as they escalate the latent potential for conflict to a level not taken into consideration by GW.

1hadhq wrote:Found where the idea of increased protection may come from.

Which I never objected, if you'd read my posts carefully.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Seems you like running in circles.

No, but you apparently do.

Got you encircled now. HA.

There is no way to alter my image of the trooper in question so I am willing to grant you a chance to leave. One time offer.
Free and no compensation expected before hell freezes over.

 Lynata wrote:

It may also save his life if he actually wears a flak vest, yet some regiments go into battle bare-chested.
If may also save his life going into battle with a weapon, yet some regiments don't receive a sufficient number of them.
It may also save his life not stepping on a mine, yet some regiments are used to clear minefields for tanks.
It may also save his life sitting inside an armoured vehicle, yet some regiments ride into battle on horses.

Welcome to the Imperial Guard.

- welcome to john rambo the movie.
- welcome to bad writing
- welcome to more bad writing
- welcome to the UK. They still have Horses...

 Lynata wrote:

Yes, the important bit being "to date". Which is obvious, given that no investigation has happened so far.

Did it not happen? the codex BA suggested it did...

But we have more in this Lynata approved source :

On occasion, it may be an Inquisitor who moves against a chapter. Such action would only be considered in the most extreme of circumstances, as an entire chapter of Space Marines is a foe that few armies could hope to challenge.

It can be estimated however, that as many as a dozen chapters may have been completely destroyed

Such an event is of such import as to attract the attention of the High Lords of Terra themselves, and no Inquisitor would bring such accusations without very convincing evidence indeed.

On other occasions, it may be sufficient for Inquisitor to approach the Masters of other chapters. To a Space Marine the very notion of a brother exceeding his Emperor-given mandate is anathema, it is to disobey the direct word of the Emperor himself, and so a simple word in the ear of a Chapter Master may bring about the censure or outright subjugation of the chapter in question.

Thus its rare ( a dozen ) and not dished out lightly ( attention of high lords = consent? ) and another chapter may take action also ( relatives? ).
Reduces the number of chapters who have failed and IMO some should drop their idea of the inquisition handing out purges like there is no tommorrow.

1hadhq wrote:Did it not happen? the codex BA suggested it did...

For the Blood Angels? That would be weird. Can you point out where?

1hadhq wrote:Thus its rare ( a dozen ) and not dished out lightly ( attention of high lords = consent? ) and another chapter may take action also ( relatives? ).
Reduces the number of chapters who have failed and IMO some should drop their idea of the inquisition handing out purges like there is no tommorrow.

You seem to have missed that part where it says that in addition to this dozen there are some more who have been excommunicated but are "still at large". The Sons of Malice would be an obvious example. Also, there would be those cases of Marine Chapters that have not been officially excommunicated, but still destroyed by the Inquisition in some dick move, such as the Celestial Lions.
And no, the attention of the High Lords does not amount to a need for consent. The Inquisition stands apart from the Imperial Senate and acts on the Emperor's own authority. In this, I suppose one could say they are on somewhat equal footing, yet specialising on different areas where they exert their power and influence. Ultimately, even a High Lord can find himself under investigation. The Ordo Hereticus was founded with specifically this intention in the wake of Vandire's madness.

Still, the High Lords have much influence themselves. Due to the Inquisition's internal rivalries, placing their weight behind another Inquisitor who would accuse his or her brethren of treason would undoubtedly influence how the Inquisition as a whole deals with the matter at hand. Even if the accused is a particularly powerful individual with lots of connections, in a direct bid for power I think the High Lords would come out on top as long as they present a unified front. After all, the Inquisition's resources are largely borrowed from other organisations. Hence it is in the Inquisition's own interest that notorious troublemakers are dealt with. This does not only concern accusations made against the Space Marines, by the way. The Witch Hunters Codex also contains an interesting story about Karamazhov and how other Inquisitors reacted to the Ecclesiarchy's protests against him imprisoning a potential Saint.

And this is why connections are important for Space Marines as well, by the way. I believe the Blood Angels will find many supporters in other organisations, simply due to their history and because (as far as I recall) they haven't given anyone else the finger. However, what if an Inquisitor accuses the Space Wolves? How many High Lords would protest, and how many would lean back and watch in satisfaction, or perhaps even use their own political weight to block any attempts to aid them?

That being said, these considerations would actually only play a role if a conflict stretches out over a prolonged time. As we have seen, an Inquisitor has the necessary authority to order an attack on a Chapter they deem guilty. It would take weeks if not months for the High Lords to notice, let alone intervene (again, see Karamazhov). Hence, I'd assume that it all depends on how an Inquisitor would approach the matter. Will he cautiously attempt to investigate, or will he try to force his way in? If the Chapter ends up destroyed but the Inquisitor survives, will he be able to deal with the backlash from his peers, or will he be hailed as a heroic uncoverer of taint? Very circumstancial, and depending on the Inquisitor's own pull and influence as much as that of his enemies (some of whom could have a good working relationship with the Marines).

I don't think an Inquisitor would approach the "relatives" of a Chapter he or she wishes to attack, though. Inquisitors likely have a list of "reliable" forces, amongst them a number of Adeptus Astartes Chapters who have proven themselves loyal and untiring destroyers of the taint of Chaos. In the CJ Strikeforce article, it was even pointed out that involving another Chapter is an option usually shunned and that the Battle Sisters are preferred, since some Marines may pick their brethren over the Imperium. In many cases, it'd be a risk not worth taking, I guess. But again, very circumstancial. Here, it would depend on the Chapters in question, how obvious the corruption is, what history the accused and the allied Chapter share, etc.

And no, the Inquisition isn't handing out "purges like there's no tomorrow" - but at the same time they do not flinch back from doing what they deem as necessary, as should also be obvious from the article. There's not a lot of Chapters around, so even if excommunication only happens every few centuries, that's still a rather big setback for the IoM, considering what they'd lose in the accused Chapter itself.

 Lynata wrote:
That being said, these considerations would actually only play a role if a conflict stretches out over a prolonged time. As we have seen, an Inquisitor has the necessary authority to order an attack on a Chapter they deem guilty. It would take weeks if not months for the High Lords to notice, let alone intervene (again, see Karamazhov). Hence, I'd assume that it all depends on how an Inquisitor would approach the matter. Will he cautiously attempt to investigate, or will he try to force his way in?

OTOH, scrounging up the forces to attack a Chapter stronghold will also take time and require preparations. Time and warning enough that I'd guess many inquisitors don't manage to pull it off before someone else gets wind of it and maybe does something. After all, a responsible inquisitor won't just try to requisition a battleship group with a full IG siege army onboard without considering where those assets are going and what the results will be if they don't get there. And any ally of the Chapter might hear of this gathering of forces and send his veto.

My point being that attacking a Chapter is a serious matter, and one that a single inquisitor isn't likely going to either wish to be responsible for or able to pull off. It would take several of them working together to smooth over the effects of collecting the forces for it and to keep others from interfering.

 Testify wrote:

 SaintTom wrote:
When it happens to the Space Wolves, then the Blood Angels would have to worry about being next, til then its because they're from the original legions and plot armor.

So if you're from the original legions, you can commit heresy just fine?

I only say that because for all intents and purposes, the Death company *are* heretics.

And just look at this guy:



I mean. That's a mutant. Right there. Clearly a bad egg to boot.

On the contrary, Astorath is like the Grim Reaper, and he handles all of the death company that don't die on the battlefield.

The Blood Angels police themselves with him and with the chaplains so that they don't all go crazy.

How are Death Company heretics?

Spetulhu wrote:OTOH, scrounging up the forces to attack a Chapter stronghold will also take time and require preparations. Time and warning enough that I'd guess many inquisitors don't manage to pull it off before someone else gets wind of it and maybe does something.

Depends. How would anyone else get wind of it? Sure, if the Inquisitor makes a big show of how he's going to return with a battlegroup, or goes around asking other Marine Chapters (which, according to the CJ Strikeforce article, most Inquisitors dislike to do as their reaction may not exactly be foreseeable) ... but otherwise?

Spetulhu wrote:After all, a responsible inquisitor won't just try to requisition a battleship group with a full IG siege army onboard without considering where those assets are going and what the results will be if they don't get there.

Depends on the individual - I think many would. But let's just say they ask, they still wouldn't have to reveal what they plan to do with these troops.

Spetulhu wrote:My point being that attacking a Chapter is a serious matter, and one that a single inquisitor isn't likely going to either wish to be responsible for or able to pull off. It would take several of them working together to smooth over the effects of collecting the forces for it and to keep others from interfering.

Absolutely, which is why I believe that most such efforts are done by a conclave of Inquisitors as opposed to an individual. It's just safer this way and eliminated the potential for inside sabotage.
On the other hand, this would indeed come with the risk that one of them might tip off a rival of the leading Inquisitor... or even the accused Chapter itself.

But lone Inquisitors seem perfectly capable of pulling such things off themselves, as we can see with the Sons of Malice. Unfortunately we do not know what would have happened to her if Inquisitor Pietas had actually survived this incident, but the Imperium obviously felt obliged to heed the excommunication, seeing that further troops were diverted to finish the job left by her quickly assembled yet defeated strike force. Maybe that was one of her mistakes - she pressed the issue and didn't want to wait any longer. Not even until she had the necessary military strength required for a successful assault.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:How are Death Company heretics?

I suppose some people think they qualify as heretics/mutants. In the strictest sense, it's true, but the Blood Angels seem to have them well in hand so that things don't get out of control. Their reputation thus makes the Imperium just "look the other way" as long as this stability is maintained.
At least that was my impression.

 Lynata wrote:
You seem to have missed that part where it says that in addition to this dozen there are some more who have been excommunicated but are "still at large".

These "more" aren't really significant numbers. Have a 1000 chapters around and lost in transit or lost in battle the major threat to a chapters existance. Then compare this to a dozen purged on a scale of 10.000 years.

 Lynata wrote:

there would be those cases of Marine Chapters that have not been officially excommunicated, but still destroyed by the Inquisition in some dick move,

The =I= isn't important for the game nor the background. Guess who could be destroyed by a dick move of GW?
So no, dick moves don't count.

 Lynata wrote:

they do not flinch back from doing what they deem as necessary,

I'd say index astartes IV is clear they may not flinch but they seem to know that even they are not untouchable.

1hadhq wrote:These "more" aren't really significant numbers. Have a 1000 chapters around and lost in transit or lost in battle the major threat to a chapters existance. Then compare this to a dozen purged on a scale of 10.000 years.

"a thousand Chapters" lost would wipe out the Astartes as any meaningful force in the galaxy. They are already a far cry from being the pillar of the Imperium's existence they were during the Great Crusade - a role now taken over by the Imperial Guard - but this would pretty much finish them off.

As far as the dozen purges (and the couple more excommunicated but surviving Chapters) go, no, these numbers aren't significant. Just proof that the Inquisition will act when a bunch of Marines like, say, the Flesh Tearers, cross the line.
The Blood Angels on the other hand I still see as being save from investigation, as they are quite simply not as "conspicuous" in their geneseed flaw but pretty much have it under control. Coupled with the Chapter's glorious history, the Imperium as a whole would simply not see any reason to involve themselves in it It's an internal matter, so to say. Much like the cannibalistic practices that seem to be relatively common throughout the Astartes (Pietas condemning the Sons of Malice for it would thus likely qualify as overzealousness by her more moderate brethren within the Inquisition).

1hadhq wrote:The =I= isn't important for the game nor the background. Guess who could be destroyed by a dick move of GW?
So no, dick moves don't count.

Are you mixing the fluff with real world company policies again? That's not how this works, so yes, dick moves "do count". Unless you simply want to ignore the Celestial Lions' fate as having not happened in your interpretation of the 'verse.

1hadhq wrote:I'd say index astartes IV is clear they may not flinch but they seem to know that even they are not untouchable.

"Untouchable"? That really depends on how you define this term. The only person in the Imperium having any authority to order an arrest or execution on an Inquisitor would be ... yup, another Inquisitor.
Of course anyone could just kill them, but this means (a) getting to them first and (b) potential further consequences, depending on the Inquisitor in question.

What the Index Astartes article talks about is that a successful attempt to excommunicate a Marine Chapter takes some foresight and careful collection of evidence and political allies. As I said, any Inquisitor could still just flash his rosette and attack just like Pietas did, but this would not necessarily be a good move for their career, regardless of whether or not this attack was successful. I suppose a successful purge would make things easier, for any survivors would surely call in a lot of contacts and favours to see this Inquisitor himself investigated ... or they could simply flee like the Sons of Malice did, thus confirming any suspicions regarding their affiliation.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
You seem to have missed that part where it says that in addition to this dozen there are some more who have been excommunicated but are "still at large".

These "more" aren't really significant numbers. Have a 1000 chapters around and lost in transit or lost in battle the major threat to a chapters existance. Then compare this to a dozen purged on a scale of 10.000 years.

Yeah, but so what? The point remains that the Inquisition can, has, and will annihilate Marine chapters as it sees fit.

The fact that it doesn't happen very often has no bearing on the matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:I'd say index astartes IV is clear they may not flinch but they seem to know that even they are not untouchable.

"Untouchable"? That really depends on how you define this term. The only person in the Imperium having any authority to order an arrest or execution on an Inquisitor would be ... yup, another Inquisitor.
Of course anyone could just kill them, but this means (a) getting to them first and (b) potential further consequences, depending on the Inquisitor in question.

Exactly. Like any authority throughout history, the individuals maintain their power by maintaining a monopoly on sanctioned violence. This is not to say that the individual maintains that monopoly. That would be impossible. The individual has limits, and can be killed.

But while an individual Inquisitor is vulnerable, his organisation is not. And since that organisation is comprised of individual Inquisitors who each want to live long and successful lives, not one of them will want to tolerate an attack on an Inquisitor. They don't want anyone to think that killing an Inquisitor is something that can be done without consequences, no matter who is doing the killing. Chapter masters, High Lords, no one is exempted. You kill an Inquisitor and the entire Inquisition, and by extension the entire Imperium, is going to come down on you like the fist of an angry god.

Because the individual Inquisitor is so vulnerable, he relies on the might of the rest of his organisation to support him. And the Inquisition, by way of requisitioning any asset it wants, is mighty indeed.

Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:These "more" aren't really significant numbers. Have a 1000 chapters around and lost in transit or lost in battle the major threat to a chapters existance. Then compare this to a dozen purged on a scale of 10.000 years.

"a thousand Chapters" lost would wipe out the Astartes as any meaningful force in the galaxy. They are already a far cry from being the pillar of the Imperium's existence they were during the Great Crusade - a role now taken over by the Imperial Guard - but this would pretty much finish them off.

I think i worded so absymally bad...
2nd try:
1000 chapters, losses replaced by a 25 foundings, so basically more than 1000 in total.
A dozen isn't much. Just 0,1 % of this.

Lynata wrote:Much like the cannibalistic practices that seem to be relatively common throughout the Astartes

Common how? Where?

Lynata wrote:Are you mixing the fluff with real world company policies again?

No. Relating content to intend.
A chaos release for example will see fluff written to support a move from loyal to traitor like this index astartes article was written specifically to tell us more. What we get, does not depend on any expectations of the fanbase.

Lynata wrote:The only person in the Imperium having any authority to order an arrest or execution on an Inquisitor would be ... yup, another Inquisitor.

Whenever the old man gets up from his golden toilet, he will not be happy with this ignorance towards him.
A inquisitor who attempted to get uninvited into the throne room would be arrested or executed without anyone ordering it.
There are still orders of a level the =I= has no access to.

Kaldor wrote:

Yeah, but so what? The point remains that the Inquisition can, has, and will annihilate Marine chapters as it sees fit.

The fact that it doesn't happen very often has no bearing on the matter.

The fact that something as rare as this means its not common practice.
So yes, the point still is, the inquisition isn't watching the astartes all day long to find those 0,1% or less since they got enough on their hands with the traitor, the psyker and the xeno. And their record, if we look upon the latest treachery of badab, isn't so good.

Kaldor wrote:
... not one of them will want to tolerate an attack on an Inquisitor. They don't want anyone to think that killing an Inquisitor is something that can be done without consequences, no matter who is doing the killing. Chapter masters, High Lords, no one is exempted. You kill an Inquisitor and the entire Inquisition, and by extension the entire Imperium, is going to come down on you like the fist of an angry god.

Not really.
some inquisitors are behind the scenes, deep down under cover. They face opposition who does not care about the inquisition like xenos and demons. They face the ones who are so desparate to risk to kill the investigator to keep themselves secure.
The inquisiton is also not a monolithic block, so 'accidents' may happen.
Inquisitors have turned to chaos too.
Plenty of opposition that doesn't fear them or has to deal with one who is no longer loyal.
So it can be done without consequences. Because the rule of the IoM isn't unchallenged. And to come down on someone isn't happening if you don't know who it was. Its not believable that an Imperium can lose track of whole worlds but will never lose track of individuals.

 1hadhq wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, but so what? The point remains that the Inquisition can, has, and will annihilate Marine chapters as it sees fit.

The fact that it doesn't happen very often has no bearing on the matter.

The fact that something as rare as this means its not common practice.

Well yes and no. Police shootings are a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall death rate, but if you resist arrest and give them a reason, they'll shoot you. It's not common practice to simply shoot people, but it happens. Same with Inquisitors and Astartes. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. The Inquisition has the authority, the ability, and they've done it before and can do it again.

Kaldor wrote:
... not one of them will want to tolerate an attack on an Inquisitor. They don't want anyone to think that killing an Inquisitor is something that can be done without consequences, no matter who is doing the killing. Chapter masters, High Lords, no one is exempted. You kill an Inquisitor and the entire Inquisition, and by extension the entire Imperium, is going to come down on you like the fist of an angry god.

Not really.
some inquisitors are behind the scenes, deep down under cover. They face opposition who does not care about the inquisition like xenos and demons. They face the ones who are so desparate to risk to kill the investigator to keep themselves secure.
The inquisiton is also not a monolithic block, so 'accidents' may happen.
Inquisitors have turned to chaos too.
Plenty of opposition that doesn't fear them or has to deal with one who is no longer loyal.
So it can be done without consequences. Because the rule of the IoM isn't unchallenged. And to come down on someone isn't happening if you don't know who it was. Its not believable that an Imperium can lose track of whole worlds but will never lose track of individuals.

Well, yes obviously in cases where the perpetrator is unknown, or the act covered up, or records are otherwise lost, or an operative is deep undercover then consequences can be avoided. But that's not a free pass to murder Inquisitors. The Inquisition maintains it's power by maintaining the safety of it's individuals, and it maintains the safety of it's individuals by the threat of overwhelming vengeance against those who would do them harm.

 Lynata wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:How are Death Company heretics?

I suppose some people think they qualify as heretics/mutants. In the strictest sense, it's true, but the Blood Angels seem to have them well in hand so that things don't get out of control. Their reputation thus makes the Imperium just "look the other way" as long as this stability is maintained.
At least that was my impression.

Well mostly in check.
But, that's if you count the Flesh Tearers as them as well. Which may be a bit of a stretch, though I'd still think founding legions would still maintain at least some control over their successor chapters.

Fact - Inqusition can't kill first founding legion/chapter without a major support of adeptus astartes...but they can kill chapter's who are made to fill the gaps in the =I= story ...

 DarthMarko wrote:
Fact - Inqusition can't kill first founding legion/chapter without a major support of adeptus astartes

I don't think that's a fact. I think it's like anything in life, the more important something is, the more attention people pay. So you have to really make sure you cross your t's and dot your i's. But if concrete evidence of deep-seated Heresy could be found within the ranks of the Ultramarines, or Dark Angels or any other second founding Chapter then that Chapter would face the same penalties as anyone else. And any other Chapters who, once confronted with that concrete evidence, still side with the Heretical Chapter are guilty by association.

I think that, even without that concrete evidence, most Chapters would abstain from a conflict. They know it would only end in escalation, and that they cannot match the escalation of the Inquisition who has at their beck and call the entire Imperial Guard, the Sisters of Battle, Titan Legions, the Navy, Officio Assassinorium, the Arbites, and every other Imperial organisation. Further, most Chapters would be smart enough to realise they don't have access to all the facts and that the people who do have access to all the facts (the Inquisition) have made the decision that this Chapter needs to be punished.

I think there would certainly be an amount of status granted by being a part of the second founding, but I think all that status would grant is transparency in the process. Other Chapter Masters would want to be convinced that the punishment was warranted, and the Inquisition would, if it wanted to avoid a conflict, be required to show their evidence.

 Kaldor wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Fact - Inqusition can't kill first founding legion/chapter without a major support of adeptus astartes

I don't think that's a fact. I think it's like anything in life, the more important something is, the more attention people pay. So you have to really make sure you cross your t's and dot your i's. But if concrete evidence of deep-seated Heresy could be found within the ranks of the Ultramarines, or Dark Angels or any other second founding Chapter then that Chapter would face the same penalties as anyone else. And any other Chapters who, once confronted with that concrete evidence, still side with the Heretical Chapter are guilty by association.

I think that, even without that concrete evidence, most Chapters would abstain from a conflict. They know it would only end in escalation, and that they cannot match the escalation of the Inquisition who has at their beck and call the entire Imperial Guard, the Sisters of Battle, Titan Legions, the Navy, Officio Assassinorium, the Arbites, and every other Imperial organisation. Further, most Chapters would be smart enough to realise they don't have access to all the facts and that the people who do have access to all the facts (the Inquisition) have made the decision that this Chapter needs to be punished.

I think there would certainly be an amount of status granted by being a part of the second founding, but I think all that status would grant is transparency in the process. Other Chapter Masters would want to be convinced that the punishment was warranted, and the Inquisition would, if it wanted to avoid a conflict, be required to show their evidence.

Hi Kaldor! Last night I discussed why the =I= doesn't maul the Blood Ravens(half a legion + chapter master going bad)?Your opinion...

 Kaldor wrote:


The Inquisition maintains it's power by maintaining the safety of it's individuals, and it maintains the safety of it's individuals by the threat of overwhelming vengeance against those who would do them harm.

they cannot match the escalation of the Inquisition who has at their beck and call the entire Imperial Guard, the Sisters of Battle, Titan Legions, the Navy, Officio Assassinorium, the Arbites, and every other Imperial organisation.

There is no overwhelming vengeance to be found in the background. So don't you think you are overestimating this "beck and call" ?

The IoM has a delicate balance of power. No one is going to ruin the show and live, not even the =I=.


PS: Its fascinating how we have no evidence of "it" and don't know what this "it" is but we are at page 4 yet....

What's to say it hasn't happened in the past, been cleaned up and then hidden in order to keep the flawless appearance the founding chapter had managed to build itself over the years?

Sort of a waste to kill it off entirely if there are small tumours to cut out instead.

1hadhq wrote:1000 chapters, losses replaced by a 25 foundings, so basically more than 1000 in total.
A dozen isn't much. Just 0,1 % of this.

12 of 1025 would be something around 1.2%, actually.
Going by this statistic, (very) roughly about one in a hundred Space Marines (not counting incomplete purges or unofficial death marks) gets killed by the Inquisition and the forces requisitioned to do the dirty work, mostly Adepta Sororitas Strike Forces. Sounds a lot more now, doesn't it?

1hadhq wrote:Common how? Where?

I don't know, that's what the fluff about the incident regarding the Sons of Malice said.
Supposedly, many Chapters tend to adopt such practices from the native population they recruit from. I've also seen something like this mentioned in the 2E SoB Codex ("practice crude acts of blood sacrifice") ... you sure it isn't mentioned somewhere in any of the Marine codices as well? I'd expect it to be so.

1hadhq wrote:No. Relating content to intend.
A chaos release for example will see fluff written to support a move from loyal to traitor like this index astartes article was written specifically to tell us more. What we get, does not depend on any expectations of the fanbase.

Just that things don't work this way. Unlike some novels which don't care much about what other authors wrote, GW books are not contradicting themselves left and right just because they focus on a different faction. They have a different focus and will showcase/highlight different incidents or legends, perhaps even exaggerate them, but it is a lot more rare that book A outright contradicts book B.

Also, Index Astartes wasn't an Inquisition release. The Armageddon campaign wasn't an Inquisition release.

1hadhq wrote:A inquisitor who attempted to get uninvited into the throne room would be arrested or executed without anyone ordering it.
There are still orders of a level the =I= has no access to.

And this is relevant to the topic how?
I think we all know that the Emperor is above the Inquisition. That is the one level in the hierarchy where this is true. They operate in His name, after all.

Supposedly, the Inquisition is also denied access to the Ecclesiarchy's Vault of Origins, though I have no idea how this works. I'd assume the Inquisition goes there anyways, it just doesn't ask but rather infiltrates to prevent the Ministorum from flipping out and throwing a hissy fit in the Senate.

1hadhq wrote:The fact that something as rare as this means its not common practice.

Chapters like the Flesh Tearers aren't exactly a common example, either.
As I've/we've been saying all along, there is a line to cross, and once you do not even the status of belonging to the Astartes will save your genetically enhanced hide. Nothing more, nothing less. And yes, this would logically apply to First Founding Chapters as well.

DarthMarko wrote:Fact - Inqusition can't kill first founding legion/chapter without a major support of adeptus astartes...

How is that a "fact"? Where did you read this?

1hadhq wrote:There is no overwhelming vengeance to be found in the background. So don't you think you are overestimating this "beck and call" ?

Again, see the Sons of Malice example.
One Inquisitor goes there and flips out as she sees the Marines eating human flesh. She condemns them as heretics (obviously an excessive move) and assembles a quick strike force to attack them.
The attack goes awry and the Inquisitor is killed. What does the Imperium do? Sends in the Guard and exterminates the entire native population left behind by the Chapter as it fled to escape Imperial retribution.

1hadhq wrote:The IoM has a delicate balance of power. No one is going to ruin the show and live, not even the =I=.

I'd say it works the other way around. "No one is going to ruin the show and live, not even the Space Marines".
Heretics and traitors are dealt with, and those that shelter them also. That's the theme.

1hadhq wrote:PS: Its fascinating how we have no evidence of "it" and don't know what this "it" is but we are at page 4 yet....

No evidence? I think we've seen enough.

n0t_u wrote:What's to say it hasn't happened in the past, been cleaned up and then hidden in order to keep the flawless appearance the founding chapter had managed to build itself over the years?

The two missing Legions?

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:1000 chapters, losses replaced by a 25 foundings, so basically more than 1000 in total.
A dozen isn't much. Just 0,1 % of this.

12 of 1025 would be something around 1.2%, actually.
Going by this statistic, (very) roughly about one in a hundred Space Marines (not counting incomplete purges or unofficial death marks) gets killed by the Inquisition and the forces requisitioned to do the dirty work, mostly Adepta Sororitas Strike Forces. Sounds a lot more now, doesn't it?

The foundings after the first one kept the size at a 1000 chapters. Dunno, did it look like i was posting 1000+25 ?
And yes, i know you love this idea of purging SM ...
Sure, you can try to make it sound "more" but who knows maybe 1% is better than almost every other group of indivuduals can claim.

 Lynata wrote:

you sure it isn't mentioned somewhere in any of the Marine codices as well? I'd expect it to be so.

Must be Ultramarines... *ducks*
Doubt there is a practice mentioned that is 'not cool' since the plan is to sell the army to the customer as non-chaos.

 Lynata wrote:

Also, Index Astartes wasn't an Inquisition release.

You see, I said CHAOS related article / release , so inquisition has no place in it beyond the fluff. And even then, there was no real success to be had as the aim of the game was to establish renegade / chaos marines , not to deny any chance to switch sides by an "all seeing" =I=.

 Lynata wrote:

Supposedly, the Inquisition is also denied access to the Ecclesiarchy's Vault of Origins, though I have no idea how this works. I'd assume the Inquisition goes there anyways, it just doesn't ask but rather infiltrates to prevent the Ministorum from flipping out and throwing a hissy fit in the Senate.

access denied isn't uncommon. Can't get everywhere on Mars too...

 Lynata wrote:

As I've/we've been saying all along, there is a line to cross, and once you do not even the status of belonging to the Astartes will save your genetically enhanced hide. Nothing more, nothing less. And yes, this would logically apply to First Founding Chapters as well.

Its still not the same line. They have their own.

IA is pretty specific on this... you pointed to it , now live with it.

Plus, we have a new starter set. With un-purged traitors. And Who's gonna stop them? the inquisition? or the real defenders of the IoM, the DA . Therefore those with a dark secret provide more dark vengeance than these shady creatures of the =I=.

 Lynata wrote:

n0t_u wrote:What's to say it hasn't happened in the past, been cleaned up and then hidden in order to keep the flawless appearance the founding chapter had managed to build itself over the years?

The two missing Legions?

The missing Legions have been replaced with new ones?

 Lynata wrote:

No evidence? I think we've seen enough.

I am not blind. But there is none.

1hadhq wrote:The foundings after the first one kept the size at a 1000 chapters. Dunno, did it look like i was posting 1000+25 ?

Uhh, my bad. I took 25 foundings -> 25 new Chapters founded, but now it dawns to me that you meant the big founding events that sometimes saw more than one new Chapter created.

That being said, in this case you are missing that there weren't 1.000 Chapters created by the Second Founding. We only know that right now it's 1.000 Chapters.
I mean, if around the Horus Heresy there were 20 Legions, and about half of them went to Chaos, whereas the other half was "mostly divided into fewer than five Chapters each" (Index Astartes) ... you do the math. To me, it seems rather likely that the number of Chapters was increased over time rather than simply maintained to replace losses.

1hadhq wrote:And yes, i know you love this idea of purging SM ...

I'm merely providing a counter-balance to those fans who think SM are invincible.

1hadhq wrote:Doubt there is a practice mentioned that is 'not cool' since the plan is to sell the army to the customer as non-chaos.

"Cool" is in the eye of the beholder.
Isn't it still in GW's fluff that Space Marines can eat brains of slain enemies to gain their memories? I vaguely recall they had an app ... err, an organ for that.

1hadhq wrote:You see, I said CHAOS related article / release , so inquisition has no place in it beyond the fluff. And even then, there was no real success to be had as the aim of the game was to establish renegade / chaos marines , not to deny any chance to switch sides by an "all seeing" =I=.

I'm sorry, I still can't follow you. The fluff is the fluff, and nobody cares what release it belongs to.
Games Workshop promulgates one setting, and the Inquisition is a part of it.

What are we even talking about here if not the fluff? Why should we talk about Inquisition minis?

1hadhq wrote:Its still not the same line. They have their own.

Again: Nobody in here has disputed this. Stop getting so defensive about things that aren't even put into question.

1hadhq wrote:Plus, we have a new starter set. With un-purged traitors. And Who's gonna stop them? the inquisition? or the real defenders of the IoM, the DA . Therefore those with a dark secret provide more dark vengeance than these shady creatures of the =I=.

See, that's what I was referring to earlier about the taunting. Stuff like this doesn't help the discussion.

1hadhq wrote:The missing Legions have been replaced with new ones?

What? Where?
Legions got split up into Chapters, they were not replaced. Their records have been deleted after the Heresy, which (together with the fact that all the actual Traitor Legions got labeled Excommunicate Traitoris) kind of implies that someone wanted to eradicate a dirty piece of history from after the Emperor's Ascension to the Golden Throne.

The Blood Angels get away with it because they have awesome plot armor.

 Lynata wrote:

Isn't it still in GW's fluff that Space Marines can eat brains of slain enemies to gain their memories? I vaguely recall they had an app ... err, an organ for that.

Ah.... now you are calling them zombies...

Could mention again the ones who did this in a BL publication. But not this time.
Because usually those who dare to confront the Adeptus Astartes should be considered not the brightest as they make that mistake, so who wants to taste such brains?

Or, to run with the background , every organ was created for a reason. Too bad GW just uses technobabbel like everyone so there won't be a sufficient explanation why they got this that will be accepted by you.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:And yes, i know you love this idea of purging SM ...

I'm merely providing a counter-balance to those fans who think SM are invincible.

Just a " counter balance ".... Thats too regular amongst vocal parts of certain allegiance.

 Lynata wrote:

Their records have been deleted after the Heresy, which (together with the fact that all the actual Traitor Legions got labeled Excommunicate Traitoris) kind of implies that someone wanted to eradicate a dirty piece of history from after the Emperor's Ascension to the Golden Throne.

Its not after the ascension. The Legions gone 'missed' before the Siege and the one who erased their history is marked as 'unknown' at every single chart GW printed into codices. So how about evidence? How about a reliable source ?

1hadhq wrote:Ah.... now you are calling them zombies...
Could mention again the ones who did this in a BL publication. But not this time.
Because usually those who dare to confront the Adeptus Astartes should be considered not the brightest as they make that mistake, so who wants to taste such brains?

Phase 8 - Omophagea
This is a complicated implant which really becomes part of the brain, but is actually situated within the spinal cord between the cervical and thoracic vertebrae. Four nerve sheaths called neuroclea are implanted between the spine and the preomnoral stomach wall. The omophagea is designed to absorb genetic material generated in animal tissue as a function of memory, experience or innate ability. This endows the Marine with an unusual survival trait: He can actually learn by eating. If a Marine eats a part of a creature, he will absorb some of the memories of it. This can be very useful in an alien environment. Incidentally, it is the presence of this organ which has created the various flesh eating and blood drinking rituals for which many Chapters are known, as well as giving the names to Chapters such as the Blood Drinkers, Flesh Tearers, etc.
-- Sources: Index Astartes I, 5E Space Marine Codex, etc ...

You know, there are times where I actually feel I know more about the Adeptus Astartes than most Space Marine fans, like when I once again remind people they're not 8+ feet tall.
But on the other hand I guess it's much more likely that we just specialise in different areas (I think the only two armies where I'd actually claim detailed insight would be the SoB and IG) and favour different sources (like me sticking solely to GW background whereas others may know stuff from countless novels). Most of what I picked up about the Astartes after I stopped collecting them was more or less by accident, be it because I actually wanted to read about something else, because I was curious about technical details, or because it was quite simply an interesting read.

1hadhq wrote:Too bad GW just uses technobabbel like everyone so there won't be a sufficient explanation why they got this that will be accepted by you.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you are inferring here.

1hadhq wrote: Just a " counter balance ".... Thats too regular amongst vocal parts of certain allegiance.

Not as vocal as the more numerous parts of another certain allegiance.

1hadhq wrote:Its not after the ascension. The Legions gone 'missed' before the Siege and the one who erased their history is marked as 'unknown' at every single chart GW printed into codices. So how about evidence? How about a reliable source ?

There's only two sorts of people who can erase this sort of data from history - the Inquisition and (maybe) the High Lords. Take your pick.
Also, we don't actually know for sure whether or not these two Legions have gone missing before the Siege or after. Unless you want to delve into Black Library interpretations, of course.
Do you not think it suspicious that they have been completely removed from history rather than simply marked as "destroyed" or "excommunicated"?

 Lynata wrote:

You know, there are times where I actually feel I know more about the Adeptus Astartes than most Space Marine fans, like when I once again remind people they're not 8+ feet tall.

Didn't request this quote but nice to see.
OtoH we have a metric system, far superior to feet.... but thats most likely heresy, to ask for scale and consistency.

 Lynata wrote:
Not as vocal as the more numerous parts of another certain allegiance.

the commonly short posts of your " group" and its usual low post count should have told me.
Must admit, considered a thread about the chosen allegiance and how vocal posters are once.

 Lynata wrote:
There's only two sorts of people who can erase this sort of data from history - the Inquisition and (maybe) the High Lords. Take your pick.
Also, we don't actually know for sure whether or not these two Legions have gone missing before the Siege or after. Unless you want to delve into Black Library interpretations, of course.
Do you not think it suspicious that they have been completely removed from history rather than simply marked as "destroyed" or "excommunicated"?

I take N3 thanks. the god emperor himself. The other two may excommunicate, he alone may remove completly.

Again, order of events does sink your boat.
- chart gathered after the heresy, based on incomplete material. ( official, multiple codices )
- currently, the story of the heresy is given to BL, and FW will chime in too. So basically ignoring both leads to 0 heresy era fluff available as GW is keeping it out of codices then and the BRB is vague enough to be nigh useless for such small details.
- accepting the HH series and the hints given, the Legions existed but ceased to exist before Dorn sent Legions to Isstvan.
- so in a worldwide sold series, the Emperor himself requested an oath of his sons to never speak of these 2 again.
- without this series, there is no date given, so your assumption of who did it has no basis and contradicts publications created to shed a light on this era.
- its up to you to stand on that box and shake your fist towards GW for their decisions. But there are too many who have fun with this, so secluding yourself will not alter the path.

1hadhq wrote:OtoH we have a metric system, far superior to feet.... but thats most likely heresy, to ask for scale and consistency.

Naturally, I like metres more, too. It's a bit*h converting stuff back and forth again, but that's what we have google for.
It's a British game, so we can only adapt.

1hadhq wrote: the commonly short posts of your " group" and its usual low post count should have told me.
Must admit, considered a thread about the chosen allegiance and how vocal posters are once.

Huh? I'm sorry, care to elaborate?

1hadhq wrote:I take N3 thanks. the god emperor himself. The other two may excommunicate, he alone may remove completly.

Given that the Emperor wasn't around Post-Heresy, he could have hardly ordered these records deleted. Well, unless you think he actually still gives orders rather than just vegetating on the Golden Throne and keeping the Astronomican alight.

1hadhq wrote:currently, the story of the heresy is given to BL, and FW will chime in too. So basically ignoring both leads to 0 heresy era fluff available as GW is keeping it out of codices then and the BRB is vague enough to be nigh useless for such small details.

That's just not true. The rulebooks and codices may not go into as much detail as your conflicting novels, but there's quite a bit of fluff to be found.

1hadhq wrote:without this series, there is no date given, so your assumption of who did it has no basis and contradicts publications created to shed a light on this era.

"The names and histories of Chapters 2 and 11 were deleted from Imperial records following the Horus Heresy."
- Codex Imperialis

Granted, this choice of words could also mean that the deletion was somehow linked to the Heresy, even when it occurred after it, and when it still throws up the question as to what made these two Legions so special. I suppose it is quite intentional that things are kept as vague as they are, given that GW obviously wishes to leave some things relatively open for players to fill with their own ideas. In this, I fear the two Legions are a dead end and thus not qualify as a good example after all. They could be, but that theory is just as much dependent on individual interpretation as the opposite, and as such not worth debating.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, unless you think he actually still gives orders rather than just vegetating on the Golden Throne and keeping the Astronomican alight.

OH oh. Lost your faith?
Maybe he stopped talking, but there are other ways to communicate.

 Lynata wrote:
The rulebooks and codices may not go into as much detail as your conflicting novels, but there's quite a bit of fluff to be found.

Is that so? Consider a new recrut to the hobby. Surely the BRB and a codex are a start?
But then , the heresy era has not much detail there and usually codices focus at 1 Legion so until this is a chaos dex , there is fluff about
5 Legions in 5 codices. Isn't something missing? Maybe fluff for 4 Legions and the 2 lost ones?


I think there is a common mistake made , that everyone has access to everything published ever and /or is in a hobby since the wheel was invented. The modern age helps , internet ressources and all that.
In this case however, its just not fair to the new recrut to ignore half of the recent releases and throw ancient fluff around just because it was valid once ( pre bronze age that is ). There is a title and there is a sticky. Both do not recommend to ignore certain products of GW.
So IMHO, restrictions of the usable sources are only ok if limits are set in the OP. Not somewhere in the thread by a few, who have no Admin or modquisition powers. However I will respect the choices of any Dakkanaut for personal use of fluff.

Maybe I am just to interested and curious to refrain from reading whatever is posted. Maybe its too entertaining to refrain from in-universe comments. But I am not going to drive this further off of the subject.


Thus end of story:

- there is nothing that wasn't known since 10000 years.
- the gene-seed is tested by the mechanicum as agreed upon after the heresy
- the loyalitiy is without doubt
- their theme is one of resisting and ending their service in battle
- collateral damage is acceptable in the IoM
> no reason to get away, no matter what this "it" may be.

Take it or leave it , doubt there is more than 'buisness decisions' and 'plot armor' left beyond that.

1hadhq wrote:OH oh. Lost your faith?
Maybe he stopped talking, but there are other ways to communicate.

Unlike some, I take an almost sadistic pleasure in knowing how rotten the IoM is. I'm embracing the Grimdark.
And no, I don't buy into the whole "the High Lords are interpreting the Emperor's will" BS. They do what they want and I think you know it.

Or do you really believe that everything is going according to plan? I mean, that would be one valid interpretation, too. I'd just find it somewhat ironic, given that this would mean that the High Lords' words truly are the Emperor's will, to be followed by the Space Marines as if He Himself would've given the word.

1hadhq wrote:I think there is a common mistake made , that everyone has access to everything published ever and /or is in a hobby since the wheel was invented. The modern age helps , internet ressources and all that.
In this case however, its just not fair to the new recrut to ignore half of the recent releases and throw ancient fluff around just because it was valid once ( pre bronze age that is ).

Why is it not fair to point to older studio material (whose validity, let's face it, is put into question solely by yourself and not GW), but totally okay to point them to a bunch of novels? I could understand if you'd limit your criticism to the availability of fluff, but here you are simply attempting to replace one source with another that is just as "hard" to get.

1hadhq wrote:There is a title and there is a sticky. Both do not recommend to ignore certain products of GW.

You mean in this forum? I actually think the sticky should point out that - as per these novels' very own authors - these books are different interpretation than the codices. Parallel worlds. Maybe you get one that's a perfect mirror and fits nicely to what GW tells us. Or maybe you get one where Space Marines carry multilasers, Battle Sisters flirt with Commissars, and lobotomised Navigator-Servitors steer spaceships with contradicting crew numbers through the Warp. *shrug*

All I'm saying is that discussions of fluff require a common ground, and when I have to decide between GW books or novels, it's not hard for me to pick. You can continue preferring the alternative, as long as you can deal with future codices disregarding what individual freelance writers make up. Like you, I respect (well, try to respect) such a choice - at least now that I'm aware that all fluff is equally valid. But I can't help but point out the drawbacks of such a policy when it comes to actually talking about things.

1hadhq wrote:- there is nothing that wasn't known since 10000 years.
- the gene-seed is tested by the mechanicum as agreed upon after the heresy
- the loyalitiy is without doubt
- their theme is one of resisting and ending their service in battle
- collateral damage is acceptable in the IoM
- no reason to get away, no matter what this "it" may be.
Take it or leave it , doubt there is more than 'buisness decisions' and 'plot armor' left beyond that.

That's referring to the Blood Angels or the Flesh Tearers?
I've made my opinions clear concerning both, though I should probably reiterate that yes, even for the BA it would depend on what "it" is. For "it" may very well raise these as-of-yet nonexistent doubts about their loyalty, and even with collateral damage it greatly depends on who is involved. It's not only the Space Marines who have political clout, you know. You seem to continue to demand some sort of untouchability for one side whilst completely disregarding the other.
The only thing to keep in mind is that all the "it's" that have actually happened so far are indeed of no consequence.

Business decisions and plot armour should be left out of fluff debates, though, for reasons of consistency.

 Lynata wrote:

Why is it not fair to point to older studio material (whose validity, let's face it, is put into question solely by yourself and not GW), but totally okay to point them to a bunch of novels? I could understand if you'd limit your criticism to the availability of fluff, but here you are simply attempting to replace one source with another that is just as "hard" to get.

Counter question:
Why would a actual line of products have no place in 40k background whilst out of print ( or deleted from their website ) products should
count as valid source?
So availability is part of what I am trying to say.
The background moves on, it doesn't integrate all that has been before and it may just put things on a , as I will call it: reserve pile. It is not lost, just unused. This also has the effect that a change can happen without replacing the former background per 'official decree'.
So a certain actual setup created from old and new is there, just look at the effort put into linking the background of rulebooks, codices and expansions. This leads to a setting that has less issues when we accept that the image they sell is based on their current line of products.
But there are also changes in the design team, the take on the 40k verse may have a general course but i doubt it is set in stone and the "replacements" may influence the compatibility of the background.
So yes, I tend to stick with the most recent imagination to keep it close to what is known by as many actually active Hobbyists as possible.

 Lynata wrote:

- For "it" may very well raise these as-of-yet nonexistent doubts about their loyalty,
- with collateral damage it greatly depends on who is involved.

I see you agree that:
- we didn't get a definition of "it" from the OP.
- there is no doubt about their loyality in a period from the time of the Legions to M42.
But you think the victim of the collateral damage would matter, to which my reply is: did you see the common saying in those rulebooks about how much one will be missed? Sure you have specific victims in mind, but even then 'blue vs blue' accidents may happen in 40k. Generally imperials have a pretty good f/f identify system in place it seems. So IMO it had to be intended not-so-collateral damage to make this count against them.

 Lynata wrote:

You seem to continue to demand some sort of untouchability for one side whilst completely disregarding the other.

'untouchability' sounds interesting...
or to make this a useful response, there is no 100% immunity if you are not the God-Emperor himself. Still, this all depends who is your opponent as any 'untouchability' only applies when we think of loyal subjects of the imperium.