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 Testify wrote:

This is an amazing post.

Which means nothing, you can 'prove' just about anything using only the internet. Perhaps you think that the current White Dwarf is as good as the early 90's issues and that the current issues aren't adverts with little actual content?

GW has serious issues and dismissing them out of hand is not very wise.

I didn't dismiss the issues out of hand. I just said that these same arguments have been coming up for 20 years. Nothing is new or different other than some of the actors.

Palindrome wrote:

Which means nothing, you can 'prove' just about anything using only the internet. Perhaps you think that the current White Dwarf is as good as the early 90's issues and that the current issues aren't adverts with little actual content?

GW has serious issues and dismissing them out of hand is not very wise.

Don't get me wrong I think White Dwarf is gakky too. But I have no idea if it was actually better when I was a child, or that's just nostalgia.

I remember when they published the short stories about the primarch, one in every issue for a few months. Man I really looked forward to them, especially since we'd been told nothing of the primarchs before.

I'd like to know who taught you math. They deserve a beating if they made you think $7.50 is half of $9.

Damn, why is everything on Dakkadakka lately someone making some sort of a snarky insult?


Sorry great know it all, I accidentally went with the price of 4.99 to 5.99 that I can get every copy for from my LGS. So sue me.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Damn, why is everything on Dakkadakka lately someone making some sort of a snarky insult?


Sorry great know it all, I accidentally went with the price of 4.99 to 5.99 that I can get every copy for from my LGS. So sue me.

I think you might be confusing Dakkadakka with the Internet at large since its inception. Common problem.

 Flashman wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Almost everyone who played GW games 20 years ago has gone away from the hobby.

Hey! I'm still here

Me too, Blinking cheeky little scamps!

Good modern history based post Pretre, while probably just a snippet of the general to and fro then it's amusing to see the moar things change the moar they stay the same. Exalted if only for the effort.

I would say just put it out it's misery, but if they pitch it as a "hobby magazine" (because they are the only wargaming people) Not even as far back as when they gave you the full army lists (anyone else remember buying genestealer cult, orks and eldar lists in white dwarf?) but even throughout 2nd ed they at least pretended to put in as much game related stuff as possible.

Then they added card insets, upped the price, 6 months later took them out and kept the price up and yeah... it gave up the ghost for me.

I will believe it when I see it.

 Testify wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

To be fair, those people were right, to an extent. Almost everyone who played GW games 20 years ago has gone away from the hobby. Most people who played the games 15 or 10 years ago have, too. The game endures, but the community, not so much. The demographics have also undoubtedly changed, as have people's mindsets.

I wouldn't say almost everyone, but yeah there is serious attrition for every game over 20 years. The local league I'm in has at least 6 members who've been playing since 2nd edition. The next store over has gamers going back to 3rd.

There were some pretty awesome games I played 20 years ago, but one does get bored and move on.

That being said, I don't expect them to cater to us lifers, but they shouldn't ignore us either.

Out of interest, what would you like to see being catered for as a "lifer"?

I'm in my mid 20s, been playing 40k for a few years, and played it as a kid as well (though I had no idea what I was doing). I'd like to see battle reports with semi-competative, or at least decent lists, decent fluff articles, artwork and house rules, even if they're a little crazy/unbalanced.

I want to read about what people who AREN'T GW employees are doing with GW stuff. I like seeing interviews with people who have interesting armies or an interesting take on the hobby. Y'know journalism. Going out into the community and finding those cool projects and giving them a platform for some recognition to inspire others as well as take some studio quality pics with good lighting etc.

I don't mind missing out on how-to articles because I can find those online and usually with videos so I want a magazine that explores the world outside GW studios but is still closely related to their games and products.

That said I used to buy the Citadel journal every time there was a new issue with far more excitement than any issue of WD because it gave me interesting new rules to play with like Adeptus Arbites armylists, Ogres in Warhammer Quest and entirely new teams for Blood Bowl.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The guys at White Dwarf should go ahead and read a bunch of issues of PP's No Quarter, for a magazine that's half the cost, half the size, and twice the quality of current WD.

I'd like to know who taught you math. They deserve a beating if they made you think $7.50 is half of $9.

One is monthly, the other every other month - the argument could easily be made that $7.50 is less than half of $18.

Rob451 wrote:

I want to read about what people who AREN'T GW employees are doing with GW stuff. I like seeing interviews with people who have interesting armies or an interesting take on the hobby. Y'know journalism. Going out into the community and finding those cool projects and giving them a platform for some recognition to inspire others as well as take some studio quality pics with good lighting etc.

I don't mind missing out on how-to articles because I can find those online and usually with videos so I want a magazine that explores the world outside GW studios but is still closely related to their games and products.

That said I used to buy the Citadel journal every time there was a new issue with far more excitement than any issue of WD because it gave me interesting new rules to play with like Adeptus Arbites armylists, Ogres in Warhammer Quest and entirely new teams for Blood Bowl.

Problem with that is you might have issues with long-term collectors saying things like "unit x is useless" or "this rule is rubbish". Journelism in a magazine can only be so independent.

Um...so you edit it?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The guys at White Dwarf should go ahead and read a bunch of issues of PP's No Quarter, for a magazine that's half the cost, half the size, and twice the quality of current WD.

I'd like to know who taught you math. They deserve a beating if they made you think $7.50 is half of $9.

One is monthly, the other every other month - the argument could easily be made that $7.50 is less than half of $18.

Ahh, but that cuts both ways. So based on the earlier statements and assumptions, and dividing it by the number of months, NQ is:

41% of the price
25% of the size
200% of the quality

So if we multiply that out, every two months you get a book that is 50% as good as WD for 41% of the price of WD.

This is why you shouldn't just spitball numbers.

What I would to see added to each issue ?

How to build or convert articles

New or experimental rules, especially army lists

Army building strategy articles like "how to cope with flyers" or "combating the FOTM" etc

interviews

 Kalamadea wrote:
We'll see. I haven't bought a white dwarf in years. New format is gonna have to blow me away to change that, and I can't be the only one.

+1

Just started reading this thread but a new format WD will have to be damn impressive for me drop my money on it. I will see if getting to the end of thread will change my mind

Whats sad is the community at large creates infinite amounts of free content that WD could simply take and sell. For monies.

I mean there are tons and tons of podcasts, hobby web sites, tactics discussions, tournament players/results all sitting there. There are so many people excited about the game, excited about playing, excited about the lore..

And thats what the magazine should be. It should showcase what the community is doing and make people EXCITED to play your game, and by default EXCITED to buy your plastic crap.

Coming here gives me great enthusiasm in my modeling. Listening to a tactics podcast makes me excited to try new strategies. A Home Depot ad does NOT get me excited to do home improvement.

Its so sad that they've missed that point. A catalogue, no matter how pretty the pictures, does not inspire people to play your game. And if they don't play... they don't buy. Your magazine, much less your product.

 pretre wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The guys at White Dwarf should go ahead and read a bunch of issues of PP's No Quarter, for a magazine that's half the cost, half the size, and twice the quality of current WD.

I'd like to know who taught you math. They deserve a beating if they made you think $7.50 is half of $9.

One is monthly, the other every other month - the argument could easily be made that $7.50 is less than half of $18.

Ahh, but that cuts both ways. So based on the earlier statements and assumptions, and dividing it by the number of months, NQ is:

41% of the price
25% of the size
200% of the quality

So if we multiply that out, every two months you get a book that is 50% as good as WD for 41% of the price of WD.

This is why you shouldn't just spitball numbers.

*shrug* I was just explaining the point about the half the cost.

It is possible the "half the size" point is already covered by the release schedule - can't check, as I haven't bought WD in a few years. Last NQ (#43) has 96pp - what were the page counts on the last 2 WDs?

Personally I think it's too late to save. I'm not a gamer and never have been, so they can put whatever rules they like into it and I won't care. When they did the original Robin Dews battle report, I didn't see the point and I've always found them tedious. The painting guides these days seem to be nothing more than a list of available paints. There's little point doing articles on conversions from individual components from different models which aren't sold individually, and although I'd be interested to see what non-employees do with their miniatures, the internet is vastly superior to whatever WD could hope to cover. Chris Peach's articles were quite interesting but I don't think I've seen any recently while flicking through it in a supermarket, shortly before putting the magazine back on the shelf. There is certainly more photography in it than 27 years ago but it's the same models ad nauseam. There was a certain perverse pleasure in cringing at the text describing the exceptionally crisp detail on the best miniatures they've ever made with a dynamic pose which alludes to the mighty ability of their staff writers to churn out absolute bilge (but you may need to burnish that exceptionally crisp detail with the Patented Citadel Emery Board - other emery boards are not available). Turn to page 79 to read about one employee inducting another employee's work to the Splendid Shrine of Citadel Fantabulousness. Or (if he still does it) read two pages of Jervis Johnson trying to say what a normal person could reasonably say in one short sentence. And it still wouldn't be worth saying. I shall always miss reading about where the latest store has opened in the depths of Outer Mongolia. There was a short period when they didn't even put prices next to the new models that were available (presumably they were top secret, which would make them all the more desirable). Buy Dreadfleet! Buy Dreadfleet! Limited availability! Buy it! Buy it now! Read all about it! Two months later you must still buy it! Last few available! Buy it now or miss out forever! What do you mean, you don't want to buy it? Look, we know you thought this issue would have something else than Dreadfleet in but actually all we really want is for you to buy Dreadfleet (granted, it did have a few other things in it, but not much). The late subscription was the last nail in the coffin for me. They can do an iWhite Dwarf if they want but I don't have an iPad to read it on and I won't be getting one to look at their iPictures if they expect me to pay iMoney for the privilege.

I've been thinging and I don't see their definition of "improved content" matching ours.

I'm assuming everyone has noticed how GW's position on converting models has fallen by the wayside in favor of only using kit options as well as the new paint-by-numbers painting guides. There hasn't been a DYI terrain article in a very long time. Dumbing everything down for the very young child is the way GW is toward so exactly what can they fill a magazine with other than advertisements?

 Breotan wrote:
I've been thinging and I don't see their definition of "improved content" matching ours.

I'm assuming everyone has noticed how GW's position on converting models has fallen by the wayside in favor of only using kit options as well as the new paint-by-numbers painting guides. There hasn't been a DYI terrain article in a very long time. Dumbing everything down for the very young child is the way GW is toward so exactly what can they fill a magazine with other than advertisements?

You can't blame children for not having DIY terrain articles.

Children love to make stuff, as macaroni pictures on fridge doors around the world will testify to. If they get to make something and then cover it in little plastic men shooting at each other then it's even better!

Fra Charmelandro wrote:
Or (if he still does it) read two pages of Jervis Johnson trying to say what a normal person could reasonably say in one short sentence. And it still wouldn't be worth saying.

Excoriating but true. (All of it, but that remark in particular.)

I started with GW back in the late Rogue Trader days. I got out about 4 years ago. I stopped buying WD long before that though. Like several people have stated, I liked the fluff articles WD used to have. Stuff like the incomplete primarch articles. That is actually my biggest complaint from those days...to many multi issue articles that never got completed. There were a lot of them. Seems like every time a new editor took over, all the old stuff got scrapped.

I agree 100% that WD has become a flavorless ad mag. The few articles that do make it are lackluster at best and only cover a couple of pages in between all the model ads.

If they really want something worth the US$9 price tag then articles need to have more substance and quantity. Advertise the new products. Not EVERY product in each magazine. Include community generated material. The studio battle reports are rather dry anymore. Have an Eavy Metal painting tutorial that actually shows most of the steps, not the 3 step PRIME, PAINT, MASTERPIECE! that we actually see currently.

Also, I loved when they still had bitz and the local area office put in employee conversions with the parts list and difficulty level, in its own little insert.

How about the little one off games that got included? The card terrain pieces, the special minis, etc. You guys who still get the mag, pay out the nose for less quality. I actually had a better magazine when I was paying half the price that you kids today suffer with.

I truly feel that this whole thread is a waste as GW is going to do whatever they want as usual. It is nice to vent though. For those of you who still purchase the mag, GW thanks you for your contribution to mediocrity and sub par materials.

Do I recall correctly that WD at some point stopped using outside content due to a change in law that prevented them from paying the contributors with product? Or am imagining things here?

I don't see how this can ever be a magazine that is cost effective for the consumer and the publisher. The backbone of printed subscription based literature is advertising. It has been for more than a century. With a complete lack of outside advertising GW cant do anything to offset publishing cost (hence no discount for subscribers). Magazines offer a discount for subscribers as it raises their guaranteed circulation and thus they can grab consistently higher rates for advertising space. This is just basic business. Unless GW decides to turn WD into a forum for wargaming as a whole, which I don't forsee them doing the idea of WD will be completely dead inside 5-7 years as the consistently rising costs of production combined with declining sales figures as prices rise will make it a money losing proposition.

imnottheonly wrote:
I don't see how this can ever be a magazine that is cost effective for the consumer and the publisher. The backbone of printed subscription based literature is advertising. It has been for more than a century. With a complete lack of outside advertising GW cant do anything to offset publishing cost (hence no discount for subscribers). Magazines offer a discount for subscribers as it raises their guaranteed circulation and thus they can grab consistently higher rates for advertising space. This is just basic business. Unless GW decides to turn WD into a forum for wargaming as a whole, which I don't forsee them doing the idea of WD will be completely dead inside 5-7 years as the consistently rising costs of production combined with declining sales figures as prices rise will make it a money losing proposition.

Why do people keep saying there is no discount for White Dwarf Subscriptions ?
12 White Dwarf at retail $108, $9 per issue
White Dwarf Subscription through GW $75, $6.25 per issue
White Dwarf Subscription through MiniaturesMarket $50, $4.16 per issue

Honestly, I think the easiest solution for GW is to allow outside advertising in White Dwarf. In this day of the information superhighway anyone with an internet connection will learn about alternatives to Warhammer. GW might as well make money from their competion by selling them add space.

 adamsouza wrote:

Honestly, I think the easiest solution for GW is to allow outside advertising in White Dwarf. In this day of the information superhighway anyone with an internet connection will learn about alternatives to Warhammer. GW might as well make money from their competion by selling them add space.

Lol. There are no real alternatives to Warhammer. And if there were, GW would *not* advertise them. Would you seriously carry adverts for your competitors in your own company's magazine?

Dragon Magazine ran for years with advertisements for plenty of other RPG's and it was basically a D&D advertising vessel.

Part of the problem with White Dwarf is that it is little more than a glorified monthly catalog. 10 pages of advertising that wasn't for GW product wouldn't hurt GW, but would provide valuable advetising revenue.

I could see ads from Mantic, Reaper, and WOTC all over it.

I once picked up a 2 pack of Dragon magazines on a whim when I got my first real job out of school. It was a little pricey since it was a 2 pack and apparently imported, but I can't blame the mag for the newsagent's prices.

What amazed me was all the content in there. For all kinds of things. It even flipped over to become D20 and half the mag was read the other way. Blew my mind.

I had NFI what any of it was, but it felt like a real magazine rather than just the monthly sales pitch.

I thumbed through some older WDs last night before bed. Ones that still had inserts. And holy crap I didn't realise how many Datafax, Wargear, and misc cards I still had in there. Even a freaking room, with rules and new gear, for Warhammer Quest. I hear HBMC salivating over that from here.

One of the issues was even the Battle Bunker for those that remember it. I understand that those things can't be cheap to print, but god damn opening one of those WDs back in the day was like Christmas.

I still have my free plastic Skinks somewhere. And my Skink shirt. BRING BACK THE SKINK SHIRTS YOU FETHERS.

Sorry. What were we talking about again? Oh right. I miss the old days. Back when you had to walk to school in the snow uphill both ways.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I've got on my shelf, along with old Army Books from the 90s (Dwarfs ftw!), a book called "How To Make Wargames Terrain" produced by Games Workshop.

Spoiler:

Do you know why we won't see books like this in the future? Because of this.

 Atma01 wrote:
Even a freaking room, with rules and new gear, for Warhammer Quest. I hear HBMC salivating over that from here.

Hold up. What room? Skaven-based or Chaos Dwarf-based? Actually - search your issue 190-220 issues (if you have any) for any Quest articles. I've got part 1 or something but not part 2, and it's always driven me mad.

DAMN!! They be some sweet transfers!