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Hey guys!

The reason I am posting this thread is because I am a fresh faced daemons collector, and my friend I play with a lot collects grey knights. Now I know for a fact he will be harder to beat then most armies, simply due to their background aswell as their rules. He tells me his force weapons, due to the FAQ still keep their unique traits and don't refer to the main rulebook.

Now I went to WARHAMMER WORLD (the main hub of gamesworkshop) and asked the staff there. They assure me tht grey knights still have to abide by the new rules an that the nemesis force weapons have been nerfed and are like anyone else's.

When I get back I check the FAQ and indeed my friend is correct, they are unusual force weapons. Which in turn infuriates me and leads me to think. " why have some armies simply got kicked in the balls so much harder then any other army?" and countless times I have gone to gw and they have got info wrong! Why do they work there!! Has anyone else had this problem??

For money. Yes.

I thought GK got nefed pretty hard. Most of their weapons are power weapons and when I bring a single 2+ armor save model they are completely screwed.

Dont deamons have those really cool slaanesh chariots that can make 12d6 hammer of wrath attacks? Sounds pretty awesome to me.

Lol. Yeah, GK are REAL uncompetitive now...

Lots of armies got hurt pretty badly by 6th ed. The new rules means that AV14 is actually stronger than AV12, which is actually stronger than AV10. Likewise, termies are actually better than marines/4+ armies, which are actually better than hordes. CC got blasted everywhere.

As such, if you were an army that relied on hordes of crappy units, it's going to be tough for you now, especially if you're a foot commander. CC hordes are basically unplayable now, especially now that hidden upgrades have all but vanished.

40k is quickly turning into a game where tough, killy units are dominating lots of weaker, less-killy-individually armies. Now is not a good time to play footdar, guard foot horde, or green tide...

It wasnt just the force weapons that got me thinking. It was just 40k in general. Some armies which were combat orientated as mentioned before, or horde armies have suffered a big nerf, whilst others have thrived off of 6th ed. I have about 150 slugga and cholla orks. Pretty useless now...

And is it only the uk's staff that seem to get almost all stats wrong. I can remember when I was collecting high elves and they told me teclis had a 2+ ward! I got the book. Went home and he had nothing!!

Green Tide's still doing very well over here, at least the people who I've beaten with it.

Though I've had far more wins now than I did in 5th, now that vehicles are hit on a 3+ when moving means my units actually do far better now in actually doing damage.

In my personal experience, don't bother asking GW staff for rules help, because they just don't know. I've asked 2 members from the same store, stood about 3meters away from each other, the same question and got the same reply. Just go off the FAQ's.

But yeah 6th has hurt some armies and buffed others. Give it until summer next year and we'll have some new codexs that can make full use of the new book.

Ed Orange wrote:
In my personal experience, don't bother asking GW staff for rules help, because they just don't know.

In my area, the local GW manager not only is incredibly knowledgeable, but when he's not working at his store, he hangs around the local FLGS giving demo games and general pointers to anyone playing 40k, in between games of magic, Warmachine, and even games of snakes and ladders with some of the parents hanging around waiting for their kids. He's a pretty top guy.

Games Workshop is, I assume, like many other places in that most of their low-level employees are doing their job for money, not because it's their passion. I'm not necassarily going to blame them for not knowing something. The problem would be if a customer asked and they didn't make a good faith effort to answer the question.

Andy140491 wrote:
Hey guys!

The reason I am posting this thread is because I am a fresh faced daemons collector, and my friend I play with a lot collects grey knights. Now I know for a fact he will be harder to beat then most armies, simply due to their background aswell as their rules. He tells me his force weapons, due to the FAQ still keep their unique traits and don't refer to the main rulebook.

I do believe so as the FAQ states they are "unusual force weapons" per the rulebook.

Now I went to WARHAMMER WORLD (the main hub of gamesworkshop) and asked the staff there. They assure me tht grey knights still have to abide by the new rules an that the nemesis force weapons have been nerfed and are like anyone else's.

Store staff in general are often about the least knowledgeable people when it comes to rules sadly.

When I get back I check the FAQ and indeed my friend is correct, they are unusual force weapons. Which in turn infuriates me and leads me to think. " why have some armies simply got kicked in the balls so much harder then any other army?" and countless times I have gone to gw and they have got info wrong! Why do they work there!! Has anyone else had this problem??

Quite simply it's because GW is a model company, not a rules company. They came right out and stated they never intended 6E to be a balanced tactical ruleset, that instead it is a framework designed to create imaginary "cinematic" moments for your plastic army men. GW has never been a good one for rules, that's why for years we had 3 different rules for stormshields and power of the machine spirit and other such sillyness.


With regards to armies that 6E has kicked in the balls, anything that relied heavily on close combat, any list built heavily around reserves, and any list built around tanks really took a hit. heavy infantry gunlines, deathstar units, flyers, and Necrons are the kings of 6E.

 Ailaros wrote:
.

Lots of armies got hurt pretty badly by 6th ed. The new rules means that AV14 is actually stronger than AV12, which is actually stronger than AV10.Likewise, termies are actually better than marines/4+ armies, which are actually better than hordes.

Huh? Were we playing the same game? AV14 has never been in any way comparable with AV12, which likewise has always had a similar advantage over AV10, the only difference now is that *anything* with an AV has about half the lifespan it used to and if it's one of the vehicles that makes up 90% of those in the game with rear armor 10 they're still all identical in CC and are easier to kill for most basic troops than 2 Tac marines are.

All of the lists that would outflank and then assault are now worthless. Genstealers got hit really hard in that since now they get shot twice(once from normal and another from overwatch) before they can attack from the sides. I havent really seen a major change in the survival of AV 14 tanks except for agianst Gauss which as we all know know eats them alive.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lots of armies got hurt pretty badly by 6th ed. The new rules means that AV14 is actually stronger than AV12, which is actually stronger than AV10.Likewise, termies are actually better than marines/4+ armies, which are actually better than hordes. Huh? Were we playing the same game? AV14 has never been in any way comparable with AV12, which likewise has always had a similar advantage over AV10, the only difference now is that *anything* with an AV has about half the lifespan it used to and if it's one of the vehicles that makes up 90% of those in the game with rear armor 10 they're still all identical in CC and are easier to kill for most basic troops than 2 Tac marines are.

Hm, no. Land Raiders and Russes do not get glanced to death.

Templars got nerfed for no obvious reason, which irks me.

Dark Eldar Wych and foot Kabalite builds took it pretty hard. Also, paper raiders just got even more squishy.

 Testify wrote:

Hm, no. Land Raiders and Russes do not get glanced to death.

That's news to me. Most weapons (aside from meltas) used to engage these tanks have a not insignificant chance to glance (e.g. Lascannons glance as often as they pen, Railguns glance 33% of the time, etc), and Leman Russ tanks are no harder to kill in CC than a Trukk or Rhino. Most kills against these vehicles that I'm seeing in my games, when they aren't inflicted by meltas, are done through HP destruction, of which glances count just as much as pens.

It's not impossible or even unusual to kill such vehicles through glancing hits. Hell, it's easier than it ever has been before in the history of the game to kill them through glancing hits.

Certain Dex's took the change real hard. I did not think GK suffered too much as their Dex was written with 6th edition in mind. My 'Nid army took a big hit because it was swarms and 'stealers and with the addition of over watch and the change of how run and fleet work and the nerfing of outflanking really pawn'd them.
Back to vanilla space marines for me. They always are in the middle, neither great or terrible but always playable.

As for rules advice, never ask the store people anything. The only questions you should ask them should have to do with modeling and persistently pestering about the next coupon day or the next release event. The answers to rules questions will only let you down.

 dalsiandon wrote:
Certain Dex's took the change real hard. I did not think GK suffered too much as their Dex was written with 6th edition in mind. My 'Nid army took a big hit because it was swarms and 'stealers and with the addition of over watch and the change of how run and fleet work and the nerfing of outflanking really pawn'd them.

And, on the other hand, benefit tremendously from the new psychic powers and the removal of no retreat.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dalsiandon wrote:
Certain Dex's took the change real hard. I did not think GK suffered too much as their Dex was written with 6th edition in mind. My 'Nid army took a big hit because it was swarms and 'stealers and with the addition of over watch and the change of how run and fleet work and the nerfing of outflanking really pawn'd them.

And, on the other hand, benefit tremendously from the new psychic powers and the removal of no retreat.

Good point, especially with the removal of no retreat...that was sometimes more brutal than the cc ever was.

Two words Matt Ward

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Dark Eldar Wych and foot Kabalite builds took it pretty hard. Also, paper raiders just got even more squishy.

... As if that was even possible...

I think, when considering which army got kicked the hardest, we should also consider the possibilities of said army getting a new codex any time soon. Tau, for example, even if they got any major balls-kicking done to them(I don't play tau, so I don't know), they can still expect a new codex as theirs is 1 of the oldest. Nids and DE, on the other hand, are both relatively new, and thus cannot possibly expect a new codex anytime soon... So personally speaking, I'd say nids and DE got kicked the hardest.

As for GW staff, I'll second what everyone else has said, they're mostly people who're just trying to sell you things, not at all representative of GW's game design department. With how secretive GW is, you probably have to be in the elite club to be able to know the intended rules.

 dalsiandon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dalsiandon wrote:
Certain Dex's took the change real hard. I did not think GK suffered too much as their Dex was written with 6th edition in mind. My 'Nid army took a big hit because it was swarms and 'stealers and with the addition of over watch and the change of how run and fleet work and the nerfing of outflanking really pawn'd them.

And, on the other hand, benefit tremendously from the new psychic powers and the removal of no retreat.

Good point, especially with the removal of no retreat...that was sometimes more brutal than the cc ever was.

Nids are better than they were in 5th imho. I'll take overwatch over No Retreat any day of the week. Outflanking Stealers took a hit, but now I'm just infiltrating them or running Ymgarls instead. And Broodlords are actually pretty scary psykers now.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Testify wrote:

Hm, no. Land Raiders and Russes do not get glanced to death.

That's news to me. Most weapons (aside from meltas) used to engage these tanks have a not insignificant chance to glance (e.g. Lascannons glance as often as they pen, Railguns glance 33% of the time, etc), and Leman Russ tanks are no harder to kill in CC than a Trukk or Rhino. Most kills against these vehicles that I'm seeing in my games, when they aren't inflicted by meltas, are done through HP destruction, of which glances count just as much as pens.

It's not impossible or even unusual to kill such vehicles through glancing hits. Hell, it's easier than it ever has been before in the history of the game to kill them through glancing hits.

Maybe it's a meta thing. I would never waste a lascannon against AV14, unless I'd already destroyed all of the weaker targets. When I used to play mech guard, my opponent would do the same. Lascannons against the chimeras, meltaguns for the Russes. I thought that was pretty common.

Codex: Grey Knights was strongly reduced in strength by 6th edition, since some of their abilities were designed for 6th and, despite being crazy in 5th, proved to be quite balanced in the 6th edition framework.

The most obvious example of this is Fortitude. Fortitude was extremely powerful back when 2/3 of glancing hits inflicted shaken/stunned results and did nothing else, but the likelihood that you'll take shaken/stunned results has gone down dramatically in 6th edition, and a successful hit will still have a serious effect even if the shaken/stunned element is suppressed by Fortitude.

That said, Grey Knights are still a very strong army, despite their reduction in power from 5th edition levels.

Necrons kick most in the balls nowadays and I find the GW staff in my area to be very knowledgeable on their products and material, though YMMV

I would say nerfing the web way hurt DE more then other armies. When your army is basically naked against shooting being able to assault from reserve was essential. Also ork Kammandos got kicked in the teeth, balls, and everywhere else. Poor Boss Snikrot one of the coolest models ever made and not kind of useless.

 Kingsley wrote:
The most obvious example of this is Fortitude. Fortitude was extremely powerful back when 2/3 of glancing hits inflicted shaken/stunned results and did nothing else, but the likelihood that you'll take shaken/stunned results has gone down dramatically in 6th edition, and a successful hit will still have a serious effect even if the shaken/stunned element is suppressed by Fortitude.

It went from being incredibly useful to being nigh on useless. I mean it's nice that it's there in case I ever need it, I guess, but so far I haven't had a single rhino that got stunned but didn't get wrecked in the same turn.

All my vehicles seem to do now is explode all over my men.

Yeah, I don't think anyone took as hard a hit as DE. Their fragile infantry is now LOL bad for trying to actually get into assault between random charges and overwatch that is exceedingly dangerous to T3 models. Their transports die even easier thanks to hull points. Portals are a joke. And good luck killing 2+ AS in CC now. And they are a new book!

Everything dies faster due to lower cover saves and HPs, so armies that can mitigate that with better armor saves, re-animation, whatever, are comparatively better off.

And Necron flyerspam is insane.

Vehicles in general now are just so hideously fragile, they feel like tinker-toys, especially lighter vehicles or anything that gets into CC, though even heavy tanks lack much respect in terms of being able to sustain hits.

As a grey knights player i feel for any daemon player. Not just because of the average codex creep making their old codex weaker and weaker, but to put out a grey knights codex with all the bells and whistles we have, and on top of that make them a "anti codex:daemons" codex was abit over the top. I truly hope the next daemon codex will fix some of that.

6th didn't really nerf C:GK much, but gave everyone else more options and removed some of the imbalances between codexes (but in a way that makes us buy more GW products...clever. real clever)

as a side note...how could they make Prescience the primaris power in Divination......its the strongest one in divination and should really be rolled for...not that i'm complaining being able to reroll to hit

Aandiin wrote:
As a grey knights player i feel for any daemon player. Not just because of the average codex creep making their old codex weaker and weaker, but to put out a grey knights codex with all the bells and whistles we have, and on top of that make them a "anti codex:daemons" codex was abit over the top. I truly hope the next daemon codex will fix some of that.

Flamers and Flying Circus.

Deamons don't need any sympathy, thanks