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Ork Codex 4th edition pg 37.

Zzap Fluff sentence. Choose and enemy unit within line of sight. If in range, that units is automatically hit. Zzap has the profile below:

Is there some weird and twisted way that this would not hit flyers automatically?

Things that automatically hit cannot be fired per snap fire.

It's not 'weird and twisted'; it's 'weapons which automatically hit cannot be snap-fired' in combination with 'weapons without the 'skyfire' rule can only be snap-fired at fliers' rules.

 Amaya wrote:
Ork Codex 4th edition pg 37.

Zzap Fluff sentence. Choose and enemy unit within line of sight. If in range, that units is automatically hit. Zzap has the profile below:

Is there some weird and twisted way that this would not hit flyers automatically?

Yep it does, the shot was fired as per snap shot and needs a 6 to hit, this autohit (set result), this is pretty much the same as say the brotherhood banner and psy tests, the test was taken but the result was pre-determined

I really can't find the 'weapons which automatically hit cannot be snap-fired' rule. Am I missing it or is this just a re-wording of shots that don't use BS can't snap shoot.

Not rolling a d6 is not the same as rolling a d6, especially in reference to a rule stating that things that do not roll a d6 cannot be used.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Am I missing it or is this just a re-wording of shots that don't use BS can't snap shoot.

It is, as PSA are shots, and ones that hit automatically do not use BS to hit.

Damn that is lame.

Oh well, lock thread plox.

...Why are you using the previous Ork codex in the current rule edition? :p In the current Ork codex, Zzzap guns roll to-hit as normal, so can snap-fire at flyers but needs 6's to-hit them.

Pyrian wrote:
...Why are you using the previous Ork codex in the current rule edition? :p In the current Ork codex, Zzzap guns roll to-hit as normal, so can snap-fire at flyers but needs 6's to-hit them.

It's the Wierdboy Psychic power Zzap, not Zzap guns...

Same thing thats going on with the BA power for The Blood Lance answers your same question. Ill post my TLDR from that thread and I would also urge folks to check it out.

The Blood Lance does not have to roll to hit, this prevents Evade from triggering due its wording for the Flyer
The Blood Lance still is a Psychic Shooting Attack and must be resolved as one, thats where the Flyer's Hard to Hit trumps the actual resolving of the shot by making the entire shot a Snap Shot.
The Blood Lance is prevented from being fired at all (in its entirety) due to Snap Shots preventing the power from happening.

 grendel083 wrote:
It's the Wierdboy Psychic power Zzap, not Zzap guns...

Ohhh... Well that's not confusing.

Pyrian wrote:
...Why are you using the previous Ork codex in the current rule edition?

He is not. The current Ork Codex came out during 4th Edition.

Pyrian wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's the Wierdboy Psychic power Zzap, not Zzap guns...

Ohhh... Well that's not confusing.

At least Orks have more diverse descriptive language than Space Wolves.

 grendel083 wrote:
I really can't find the 'weapons which automatically hit cannot be snap-fired' rule. Am I missing it or is this just a re-wording of shots that don't use BS can't snap shoot.

Your not missing it. Its a convoluted argument that some are making to say that auto hits cannot hit something that requires a 6 to hit.

 Amaya wrote:
Ork Codex 4th edition pg 37.

Zzap Fluff sentence. Choose and enemy unit within line of sight. If in range, that units is automatically hit. Zzap has the profile below:

Is there some weird and twisted way that this would not hit flyers automatically?

As much as many of the people from the Blood Lance thread want to jump in here and jump over steps in the actual rule to see who can shout SNAP SHOTS the first and the loudest, the actual rules pertaining to this scenario are played out as follows,

The rule for Hard to Hit on page 81 of the BRB,

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

Since the Zzap psychic shooting attack tells you to choose an enemy unit, in this case the Zooming Flyer, you are targeting it specifically. Since you are targeting a Zooming Flyer, you are indeed resolving a shot at it which can then only be resolved as a Snap Shot. Any shooting attack that does not use a a BS cannot be fired as a Snap Shot.

That is why the Zzap psychic shooting attack does not work against Zooming Flyers.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I really can't find the 'weapons which automatically hit cannot be snap-fired' rule. Am I missing it or is this just a re-wording of shots that don't use BS can't snap shoot.

Your not missing it. Its a convoluted argument that some are making to say that auto hits cannot hit something that requires a 6 to hit.

It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

No, really - it's a rule. If it doesn't use a Ballistic Skill (ie - it auto hits) it cannot be fired as a snap shot.

According to the rulebook FAQ.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when
making a Snap Fire? (p13)
A: Yes.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490286a_40K_Rulebook_v1.pdf

As the only weapons that I know of that auto hit are psyker power and templates I think it is safe to say that Zzap auto hits flyers.

There's another question regarding auto-hit weapons and flyers, so it still won't work.

It does say weapons that hit automatically may fire snap shots, however more specifically in the rules regarding interactions with flyers it says that weapons which do not roll to hit may not be fired. Does the zzap gun roll to hit?

 Meade wrote:
It does say weapons that hit automatically may fire snap shots, however more specifically in the rules regarding interactions with flyers it says that weapons which do not roll to hit may not be fired. Does the zzap gun roll to hit?

This is the Zzap psychic power, not Zzap guns..
The power auto hits, the gun rolls to hit.

Q: How do , and – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming and ? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Zzap can auto hit when being Snap Fired, but can not be fired at Flyers because it auto hits.

>.<

Feth me with a pointy stick

First of all this is in response to a post from the other thread, which the discussion had gone down a slightly different vein, but as that post here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/475008.page has useful information I'll post it here.

ClassicCarraway wrote:I think you are interpretting the FAQ wrong. The one FAQ question specifically asks regarding weapons that hit both automatically and make a Snap Fire shot, does that shot still hit automatically (to which the answer was yes). Nowhere does it state that all weapons that hit automatically can snap fire. I took the question to mean that IF a weapon that both A) hits automatically, and B) is ALLOWED to make a Snap Fire shot, does take a Snap Fire shot, does it still hit automatically instead of firing as BS1.

The second question about flyers and various non-to hit roll weapons/powers/effects clearly states that those types of attacks typically cannot Snap Fire. Many took this as a contradiction, but I think its pretty clear that their intention with the first question was IF a weapon/power/etc that hits automatically is somehow allowed a snap fire (such as by special Codex or character rules), it still hits automatically. I think it could also be taken as applying to a weapon or power that still has to make some sort of blanket to-hit roll, such as "Automatically hits on a 2+ regardless of the user's BS", in which case, the weapon can make Snap Fire shots.

 Amaya wrote:

Zzap can auto hit when being Snap Fired, but can not be fired at Flyers because it auto hits.

>.<

Feth me with a pointy stick

I'll respond to both of those posts, since the answer would apply to both of them. Carraway you're correct in that if a weapon hits automatically and is allowed to make a snap shot it will hit automatically instead of firing at BS 1, but in no way does that mean the weapon did not make a snap shot. Notice how in the secondary FAQ answer that tells us, "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures." If a weapon that hits automatically is allowed to make a snap shot (such as the autocannon that hits automatically I referenced as an example in the other thread), it is allowed to shoot a zooming flyer. Why? Because we are told only snap shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures. Certain weapons that hit automatically are allowed to make snap shots. For example we're talking about the Zzap psychic power, it has a regular profile and it is a shooting attack that is not a blast marker, template, or line thus it is able to make a snap shot since it still follows all the shooting rules, it just bypasses rolling to hit. The weirdboy is able to make a snap shot, the shot was still a snap shot even if it automatically hits, that means that the shot was resolved properly as a snap shot (since it is a normal shooting attack it is able to make a snap shot) thus it falls into that first clause. In other words the attack is resolved as a snap shot at the flyer, because there is nothing that prevents the weapon from being able to make a snap shot, and if it is resolved as a snap shot it CAN hit said flyer.

Like I said in the other thread, weapons that automatically hit are a very specific subset of attacks that do not roll to hit, and have their own rules in the FAQ. Because of that first rule saying that weapons that automatically hit can still make a snap shot, and the other FAQ about flyers says it can only be hit with snap shots. Thus if shots that hit automatically can make a snap shot, they can hit a flyer.

What I don't get is that the BRB still says that weapons that don't use BS can't be fired as a snap shot...so if you're firing it at a flier that means you're firing it as a snap shot and since it auto-hits it doesn't roll against BS...so...uhm...man.

 Kevin949 wrote:
What I don't get is that the BRB still says that weapons that don't use BS can't be fired as a snap shot...so if you're firing it at a flier that means you're firing it as a snap shot and since it auto-hits it doesn't roll against BS...so...uhm...man.

However weapons that automatically hit don't necessarily forgo using their BS. Take Zzap for example, I pick up a die and go to roll to hit, and then declare it automatically hits. It's not like the death ray, which doesn't use BS because it doesn't "roll to hit." Something that automatically hits is not necessarily forgoing the to hit roll, it is ignoring the result of the roll and saying it hits.

Compare Zzap to a flamer. Zzap says it automatically hits. A flamer says, "instead of rolling to hit simply place the template" there is a huge difference between those two. One says it automatically hits, the other says instead of rolling to hit. It's all in how we determine who is hit whether or not the attack is able to hit a flyer or not. Is there a special rule that would cause it to ignore normal to hit circumstances? It is unable to snap shot. Is the special rule one that would roll to hit if it were not for the "automatic hit" clause? It can make a snap shot, and thus hit a flyer. In other words, what cannot hit a flyer? Blast markers, templates, lines, beams, novas, maelstroms, and "attacks that don't roll to hit." The difference is in the original power, if it is a shooting attack that you still follow all the rules of shooting for, and automatically hits, we have another rule that allows us to hit a flyer because we can make a snap shot.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
What I don't get is that the BRB still says that weapons that don't use BS can't be fired as a snap shot...so if you're firing it at a flier that means you're firing it as a snap shot and since it auto-hits it doesn't roll against BS...so...uhm...man.

However weapons that automatically hit don't necessarily forgo using their BS. Take Zzap for example, I pick up a die and go to roll to hit, and then declare it automatically hits. It's not like the death ray, which doesn't use BS because it doesn't "roll to hit." Something that automatically hits is not necessarily forgoing the to hit roll, it is ignoring the result of the roll and saying it hits.

Compare Zzap to a flamer. Zzap says it automatically hits. A flamer says, "instead of rolling to hit simply place the template" there is a huge difference between those two. One says it automatically hits, the other says instead of rolling to hit. It's all in how we determine who is hit whether or not the attack is able to hit a flyer or not. Is there a special rule that would cause it to ignore normal to hit circumstances? It is unable to snap shot. Is the special rule one that would roll to hit if it were not for the "automatic hit" clause? It can make a snap shot, and thus hit a flyer. In other words, what cannot hit a flyer? Blast markers, templates, lines, beams, novas, maelstroms, and "attacks that don't roll to hit." The difference is in the original power, if it is a shooting attack that you still follow all the rules of shooting for, and automatically hits, we have another rule that allows us to hit a flyer because we can make a snap shot.

I get that, it's the same principle argument I used to get people to understand wraiths assaulting into terrain (pre-6th) still went at I1.

It still seems pretty...I don't know, can't think of the right word. It just seems that with so much going for the flyers and all the special rules and fortifications specific to taking them out, to allow auto-hit weapons to just hit them just seems wrong. But oh well, that's how it goes, eh?

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
What I don't get is that the BRB still says that weapons that don't use BS can't be fired as a snap shot...so if you're firing it at a flier that means you're firing it as a snap shot and since it auto-hits it doesn't roll against BS...so...uhm...man.

However weapons that automatically hit don't necessarily forgo using their BS. Take Zzap for example, I pick up a die and go to roll to hit, and then declare it automatically hits. It's not like the death ray, which doesn't use BS because it doesn't "roll to hit." Something that automatically hits is not necessarily forgoing the to hit roll, it is ignoring the result of the roll and saying it hits.

Compare Zzap to a flamer. Zzap says it automatically hits. A flamer says, "instead of rolling to hit simply place the template" there is a huge difference between those two. One says it automatically hits, the other says instead of rolling to hit. It's all in how we determine who is hit whether or not the attack is able to hit a flyer or not. Is there a special rule that would cause it to ignore normal to hit circumstances? It is unable to snap shot. Is the special rule one that would roll to hit if it were not for the "automatic hit" clause? It can make a snap shot, and thus hit a flyer. In other words, what cannot hit a flyer? Blast markers, templates, lines, beams, novas, maelstroms, and "attacks that don't roll to hit." The difference is in the original power, if it is a shooting attack that you still follow all the rules of shooting for, and automatically hits, we have another rule that allows us to hit a flyer because we can make a snap shot.

I have to disagree with your logic. Based on the FAQ and the BRB, ZZap does not get totarget flyers. The exact wording of the power is "Choose an enemy unit within line of sight, if in range, that unit is automatically hit." You do not roll against your BS (and you can't just say you're going to roll and then claim it hits automatically). The FAQ is very clear,..." any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don't roll to hit cannot target [zooming flyers]." Furthermore, the BRB states "any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill (of which Zzap is one) cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." It can't really get any clearer than this.

The assumption that the first FAQ question allows automatic-hit weapons/powers the ability to snap fire isjust plain wrong. The way the question is worded is not, "Can weapons that hit automatically snap fire", its "Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot?". Nowhere does it state the snap fire rules have changed, it's just saying that should you somehow have a weapon/power that hits automatically AND has the ability to make snap fire shots, it will hit automatically on those shots. Why they chose to include that question is puzzling, maybe the Chaos Codex will have something that fits this and they were being proactive, but it in no way grants the blanket ability to make snap fire shots to those weapons/powers that don't require a roll to hit.

It is clearly stated that weapons that auto hit can never be aimed at zooming flyers. I hate the rule, I think it is stupid and it goes against the established fluff for psykers, but GW has a chub for flyers right now. Nothing we can do about it.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, weapons that automatically hit are a very specific subset of attacks that do not roll to hit, and have their own rules in the FAQ. Because of that first rule saying that weapons that automatically hit can still make a snap shot, and the other FAQ about flyers says it can only be hit with snap shots. Thus if shots that hit automatically can make a snap shot, they can hit a flyer.

Where are you reading this at? As I've stated in my previous posts, that's not what the first FAQ question says at all.

For example, if I ask the question, "If I jump off the roof, and I have the ability to fly, can I avoid hitting the ground?" (answer: Yes), does that mean that everybody that jumps off a roof now has the ability to fly?

ClassicCarraway wrote:
I have to disagree with your logic. Based on the FAQ and the BRB, ZZap does not get totarget flyers. The exact wording of the power is "Choose an enemy unit within line of sight, if in range, that unit is automatically hit." You do not roll against your BS (and you can't just say you're going to roll and then claim it hits automatically). The FAQ is very clear,..." any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don't roll to hit cannot target [zooming flyers]." Furthermore, the BRB states "any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill (of which Zzap is one) cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." It can't really get any clearer than this.

The assumption that the first FAQ question allows automatic-hit weapons/powers the ability to snap fire isjust plain wrong. The way the question is worded is not, "Can weapons that hit automatically snap fire", its "Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot?". Nowhere does it state the snap fire rules have changed, it's just saying that should you somehow have a weapon/power that hits automatically AND has the ability to make snap fire shots, it will hit automatically on those shots. Why they chose to include that question is puzzling, maybe the Chaos Codex will have something that fits this and they were being proactive, but it in no way grants the blanket ability to make snap fire shots to those weapons/powers that don't require a roll to hit.

I'll repost a post I made in another thread because it will explain my stance to your post. Actually if the rules weren't meant to be played the way I've suggested, why would one of their FAQ answers tell us that when a weapon that "automatically hits" snap fires, it automatically hits? Again in the second FAQ answer, why would their first line out of there be, Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? If a weapon that hits automatically still hits automatically when making a snap shot. and it is making a snap shot at a vehicle, is the vehicle hit? The answer has to be yes. Notice in the second question they take the time to separate weapons that "hit automatically" from a weapon that "doesn't need to roll to hit?" Again in the answer do you see anything that explains something that hits automatically? Every way they mentioned in the question is covered in the answer, except weapons that "hit automatically." There has to be a reason, and that reason is made clear when we look at their first question. Weapons that hit automatically can snap shot, and if something can snap shot it can legally target a flyer.


Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when
making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Amaya wrote:It is clearly stated that weapons that auto hit can never be aimed at zooming flyers.

Actually nowhere in the second question (which I've posted again so it's handy) does it even mention attacks that automatically hit. In order it mentions Blast Markers, Templates, attacks that create a line of/area of effect or weapons that don't roll to hit. As I said above, notice in the question how they specifically separate attacks that don't roll to hit from attacks that hit automatically? They are addressed separately in the question, but only one of them is addressed separately in the response. There has to be a reason for that, and as I said above, that reason becomes clear when we read the earlier FAQ. Weapons that hit automatically are given permission to snap shot with the way the question is worded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, weapons that automatically hit are a very specific subset of attacks that do not roll to hit, and have their own rules in the FAQ. Because of that first rule saying that weapons that automatically hit can still make a snap shot, and the other FAQ about flyers says it can only be hit with snap shots. Thus if shots that hit automatically can make a snap shot, they can hit a flyer.

Where are you reading this at? As I've stated in my previous posts, that's not what the first FAQ question says at all.

For example, if I ask the question, "If I jump off the roof, and I have the ability to fly, can I avoid hitting the ground?" (answer: Yes), does that mean that everybody that jumps off a roof now has the ability to fly?

It is implied by the first question of the FAQ;
Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when
making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

That gives weapons that "hit automatically" permission to make a snap shot. If we look at the book, weapons that "do not use Ballistic skill to hit" cannot make a snap shot, that's fine we have numerous weapons that hit using a way other than ballistic skill; Flamers, Blast Markers, Line attacks, etc. However those have alternate ways of hitting compared to normal. Thus if an attack follows the normal pattern for shooting (measuring range, testing line of sight), except that it hits automatically it is capable of performing a snap shot.

You act as if Snapfire is only applied to Flyers.

Allowing autohit weapons to Snapfire (and auto hit) means that they can effectively move and shoot/shoot out of a transport or potentially shoot out of a transport.

As these weapons DO NOT ROLL TO HIT they can not even TARGET zooming flyers and the equivalent flying MC.

 Amaya wrote:
You act as if Snapfire is only applied to Flyers.

Allowing autohit weapons to Snapfire (and auto hit) means that they can effectively move and shoot/shoot out of a transport or potentially shoot out of a transport.

As these weapons DO NOT ROLL TO HIT they can not even TARGET zooming flyers and the equivalent flying MC.

I realize shooting at flyers is not the only time snap shots are made. However there is no distinction made between making a snap shot at a flyer, or making a snap shot out of a transport, or making a snap shot with a heavy weapon. A snap shot is a snap shot. If they open it up for one instance without specifying, they open it up for all instances.