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Mind you, future shotguns could shoot a cloud of flechettes and be designed for a much larger spread, but at that point you may as well call it a different weapon.

Well, in the past, guns shooting a cloud of pellets existed, at least as cannons.

And honestly, it's what i want to do, but for a Space Marine handgun (replacing storm bolter for free).

I'm still interested by the "looking real" shotgun : Can be a terrifying weapon, and go perfectly with my SM fluff (as they operate in the Halo, they arrive often AFTER the enemy is entrenched, and have to do a lot assault in buildings, cities, caverns...).

LittleOrk wrote:
Well, in the past, guns shooting a cloud of pellets existed, at least as cannons.

And honestly, it's what i want to do, but for a Space Marine handgun (replacing storm bolter for free).

I'm still interested by the "looking real" shotgun : Can be a terrifying weapon, and go perfectly with my SM fluff (as they operate in the Halo, they arrive often AFTER the enemy is entrenched, and have to do a lot assault in buildings, cities, caverns...).

And why don't they want to use flamers?

-Matt

Well, they uses flamers, but that's only 8" long.
Also, you can have double-barreled shotgun (assault 2 or twin-linked as needed by the situation).
And you can't use flamers on fliers.

LittleOrk wrote:
Well, they uses flamers, but that's only 8" long.
Also, you can have double-barreled shotgun (assault 2 or twin-linked as needed by the situation).
And you can't use flamers on fliers.

If you think shotguns are any good against aircraft, then you are going to have a bad time...

In the real world you are right, but in 40k, even pistols are so good they can shoot at fliers... They why not a shotgun ?

What? What pistols have the 24" range necessary to shoot upward, even if the flyer is directly over them?

Remember, fliers are now supposed to be mounted on 24" bases.

I'm sorry, but i don't see in the rules you can't shoot at a flyer with a pistol (at least, in the flyers part of the book).

But it's right i'm not a very regular player and i've never played with "true" flyers myself, just with skimmers, jetbikes, jumps...

EDIT : OOPS, wrote too fast : 24" base only ? That's a hell of a base ! I don't think i have ever see one !
Can you direct me on where is this new rule ? I can't find it (but i don't have all books).

I never said pistols couldn't fire at flyers, only that you need the range to be able to.

Models must be mounted on an appropriate base as per the modeling rules in the BRB. The flier base is a Large Oval base, but looking around I can't find rules or precedence for the stem (the average stems are 8-12" upon further research).

I'd read somewhere that fliers must be mounted on 24" stems but I suppose I'm mistaken (or possibly thinking of old apoc rules?)

Regardless, you have to shoot at the hull; if a flier is 12" up and your model is 2" tall, you still need to be within 6.5" of it laterally to have range.

The flying base is completely standardized, and it is 6" tall. The whole thing is the base, the game forbids you to change any aspect of that.

To be honest, no flame weapon ever devised has the same pattern as the template used in the game either.

Let's propose :

Shotgun :

- Easier to hit with (but W40K don't really give rules for that). The fact the pellets scatter, even a little, mean it's easier to have at least some hit.
- Longer range than pistol or flamer, but shorter than "rifles". Too short range to hit flyers.
- Enormous damages at short range, few at long range.
- Weak AP.
- Assault 1.
- Version double-barreled can be used as Assault 2 or Assault twin-linked, as the situation need it.

Basically, W40K has few use of stopping power and accuracy.

Actual shotgun scatter their pellets by having the end of the cannon reduced in diameter. Length and diameter of the "shoke" are what make the scatter important or not.


Advice ?

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Special rule is Buckshot fires at full BS for overwatch at ranges of 6" or less.

That is a nice idea, a fine boost, and makes sense.

6" Or less strength 5 ap 5 assault 3. 7" to 12" strength 3 ap- assault 1 weapon.

The higher fire rate represents the mass of pellets.

 psychadelicmime wrote:
6" Or less strength 5 ap 5 assault 3. 7" to 12" strength 3 ap- assault 1 weapon.

The higher fire rate represents the mass of pellets.

No, we've been over that. What you're thinking of is not a shotgun, it's a claymore mine.

 psychadelicmime wrote:
6" Or less strength 5 ap 5 assault 3. 7" to 12" strength 3 ap- assault 1 weapon.

The higher fire rate represents the mass of pellets.

If anything you have it backwards, if anything there should be more shots at longer range with a lower strength to represent the greater spread. In all honesty this is what I think is simplest
Str: 3 (4 for astartes shotguns) AP: - Type: Assault 2, Twin-Linked (can also fire overwatch at full BS if you want). The rules are simple, a regular short range assault weapon, but represent a shotgun well in that it is fairly easy to hit your target, which is perfect for a low BS unit like scouts.

Okay, new info guys : Shotgun range is inferior than even pistol range (around half).

source :

http://homestudy.ihea.com/ammo/20cartridges.htm and the next two.

That is like the absolute maximum range, like if you pointed it at a 45 degree angle and fired. You will never hit anything with a .22 LR beyond a mile, ever, no matter what.
Also, only one of those is a pistol round (.22 LR can be fired from a pistol), and none of those are shotgun shells or slugs. It even says rifle ranges.

 Panopticon wrote:
Mind you, future shotguns could shoot a cloud of flechettes and be designed for a much larger spread, but at that point you may as well call it a different weapon.

That would be the Flak Cannon on the Blood Angels Dread. Belt fed and massive, it's S6 AP- rending, assault 2 Template.
Maybe 12" range, S3 AP- assault 1 rending. Using rending to replicate stopping power crushing a man inside his armor (a slug can kill a man in body armor without penning the vest).
Though I rather like my first idea of overwatch at full BS at half range.

From the training I had, I was about as good with a slug as with a pistol at range. That being said, I was top of the class with slugs and middle of the road with the pistols.
In a GW setting, putting them both at 12" seems right.

-Matt

I like the idea of the shotgun using full BS on snapfire. It gives them a little more accuracy in close combat conditions but S4/S3 depending on your army is still just fine with me.

Snapfire 10 bolters and get 3 or 4 hits. Snapfire 10 shotguns and get 13 hits... Sounds good enough to bring the shotgun back from irrelevance.

Okay. Then here what we have :

- Short range.
=> 12"

- Big damages.
- Weak AP.

* Pellet Ammo : Can shoot on Snapfire at full BS (or for all ammos ?).
* Slug Ammo : Has the Rending rule.
* Dart Ammo : Less damages, more AP.


For the Snapfire, don't that's for Heavies only ?

 Panopticon wrote:
Mind you, future shotguns could shoot a cloud of flechettes and be designed for a much larger spread, but at that point you may as well call it a different weapon.

Current shotguns can fire flechettes, and it isn't so much about spread as it is about penetration. In the end however, it is still just a type of shotgun ammunition, so it would still be best represented as another shooting mode.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LittleOrk wrote:
Okay. Then here what we have :

- Short range.
=> 12"

- Big damages.
- Weak AP.

* Pellet Ammo : Can shoot on Snapfire at full BS
* Slug Ammo : Has the Rending rule.
* Dart Ammo : Less damages, more AP.


For the Snapfire, don't that's for Heavies only ?

Marine shotguns
Shot: Str 4, AP -, Assault 2, Spread (special rule lets you snap fire on full BS)
Slug: Str 4, AP -, Assault 2, Rending
Flechette: Str 4, AP 6, Assault 2

Guard Shotguns
Shot: Str 3, AP -, Assault 2, Spread (special rule lets you snap fire on full BS)
Slug: Str 3, AP -, Assault 2, Rending
Flechette: Str 3, AP 6, Assault 2

Spread rule is not in the rulebook. Its in a codex ?

LittleOrk wrote:
Spread rule is not in the rulebook. Its in a codex ?

I made it up. To my knowledge there is no rule that nullifies the BS 1 overwatch.

Well, there is one now, Button :-)

To me the fudgy way to do the shotgun.

12" Assault 2 S4 AP -

Or

12" Blast S1 AP -

Full BS when charged.

So if you want the spread, go for it but don't count on it doing anything much except a mob of grots maybe.

DAaddict wrote:
To me the fudgy way to do the shotgun.

12" Assault 2 S4 AP -

Or

12" Blast S1 AP -

Full BS when charged.

So if you want the spread, go for it but don't count on it doing anything much except a mob of grots maybe.

No one knows how spread works ITT. Spread from shooting a shotgun won't let you hit another person unless they are extremely far apart, or your shotgun has the strangest choke ever (in which case it should be a strength 1 AP- flamer template because each guy will get hit by like two pellets). The point of a shotgun isn't to hit multiple people it is to make aiming easier. To kill a man you don't need to aim directly at the heart, you can aim at the torso in general and due to the spread you are likely to hit something important. The best way to represent this is honestly just twin-linking it, although if you want to include special ammunition types (slugs, flechettes) there are ways to do that too. Honestly there is nothing wrong with the shotgun at all, guard shotguns are close range lasguns that you can assault with, marine shotguns are like short range assault bolters with crap AP.

Buttons wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
To me the fudgy way to do the shotgun.

12" Assault 2 S4 AP -

Or

12" Blast S1 AP -

Full BS when charged.

So if you want the spread, go for it but don't count on it doing anything much except a mob of grots maybe.

No one knows how spread works ITT. Spread from shooting a shotgun won't let you hit another person unless they are extremely far apart, or your shotgun has the strangest choke ever (in which case it should be a strength 1 AP- flamer template because each guy will get hit by like two pellets). The point of a shotgun isn't to hit multiple people it is to make aiming easier. To kill a man you don't need to aim directly at the heart, you can aim at the torso in general and due to the spread you are likely to hit something important. The best way to represent this is honestly just twin-linking it, although if you want to include special ammunition types (slugs, flechettes) there are ways to do that too. Honestly there is nothing wrong with the shotgun at all, guard shotguns are close range lasguns that you can assault with, marine shotguns are like short range assault bolters with crap AP.

I agree... I was just trying to make a concession to the flamer template people. A shotgun is basically as low-tech as you can get in the 40K universe.

I think it should be S 4 (or 3) Assault 2 12" AP - . My concession for the easier to aim part is that you get full ballistic skill when snapfiring. Truthfully that is awesome enough and differentiates it from the bolter.

Bolter S4 AP 5 24" Rapidfire
Shotgun S4 AP- 12" Assault 2

So take 2 simplistic situations 10 marines with bolters and 10 marines with shotguns.

24" 10 Bolter shots 7 hits
12" 20 Bolter shots 13 hits
Gets charged 20 snapfire bolter shots 3 hits

12" 20 shotgun shots 13 hits
Gets charged 20 shotgun shots 13 hits.

This makes shotguns good but limited range and protected by a flak jacket you will lose 1/3 of your kills.

Why not use the flamer template for determining hits then use diminishing damage and ap as more targets are hit

(Template to represent ease of hits, and spread [it doesn’t have to be super realistic and for all we know they can be using super powered sawed off shotguns] as well over watch suppression fire which will always at least hit once)

So closest takes st 6ap 4, next is st 5, ap 5 and so on.

mind ya this is all for fun

edit: also why take slugs when your basicly shooting armor piercing gernades from your rifles. ( would be cool if space marine buck shots used power fist tech)

 Desubot wrote:
Why not use the flamer template for determining hits then use diminishing damage and ap as more targets are hit

(Template to represent ease of hits, and spread [it doesn’t have to be super realistic and for all we know they can be using super powered sawed off shotguns] as well over watch suppression fire which will always at least hit once)

So closest takes st 6ap 4, next is st 5, ap 5 and so on.

mind ya this is all for fun

edit: also why take slugs when your basicly shooting armor piercing gernades from your rifles. ( would be cool if space marine buck shots used power fist tech)

I like this idea. But it loses the ability to ignore cover saves.