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I think I read somewhere that the whirlwind could be upgraded to some sort of AA Platform. Is that true or am i just dreaming?

Whirlwind Hyperios, in Imperial Armour Aeronautica. It costs too many points for what it does, but when marine AA is so lacking in general I guess it's better than nothing.

is it available in standard 40k games?

Yes. Like everything GW publishes for 40k, it is 100% official and intended for use in standard games.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes. Like everything GW publishes for 40k, it is 100% official and intended for use in standard games.

Unless your definition of standard games includes tournaments. I don't know any large tournament that allows FW.

In most places, FW is considered as much expansion as Cities of Death or Apocalypse and therefore not suitable for 'standard' pick-up game. YMMV of course, in some places FW is par for course.
So talk about it before game with your opponent and assume you won't be able to use FW in tournaments and you'll be fine.

also, its not in my codex (I play DA), can i still bring it?

In most places, FW is considered as much expansion as Cities of Death or Apocalypse and therefore not suitable for 'standard' pick-up game.

Sure, but some people (including many tournament organizers) consider allies, fortifications, and double FOCs at 2000 points to be "expansions" that they don't want to include. However, Games Workshop, the people who actually decide what is legal or not, have clearly stated that all FW rules for 40k are intended for use in standard games. Having a house rule that FW isn't allowed is no different than having a house rule that Orks are not allowed: you can do it, but you really shouldn't.

 bobtheoverlord wrote:
also, its not in my codex (I play DA), can i still bring it?

Yes. The Whirlwind Hyperios is available to DA (see the unit entry in the book for more details).

Most Forgeworld stuff is in fact legal at all the significant US tournaments. Adepticon, the premier tournament in North America, springs instantly to mind. Just check out the Adepticon guidelines. And of course the Aeronautica book clearly indicates that most ADA (like the Hyperios) has a 40K stamp and is cleared for standard play/games.

I also think the Hyperios, @95 points, is not a bad buy. The Interceptor rule tends to scare the poop out of flyer players. And it is not all that bad at engaing ground targets (armor) IMO.

Peregrine wrote: However, Games Workshop, the people who actually decide what is legal or not, have clearly stated that all FW rules for 40k are intended for use in standard games.

As was pointed out with photographic evidence in the other thread, they state they are for use with 40k if they have the stamp and if your opponent is happy to play them. You refuse to acknowledge this because of whatever reason it is, but the fact is it is there, and telling people otherwise isn't fair as some poor sap someday will listen, fork out €100 on some model, and then find his local club won't agree to it, something he would have known could happen if some fanboy on the internet didn't insist otherwise.

I'm a huge fan of ForgeWorld, but I'm a fan of reality more.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
As was pointed out with photographic evidence in the other thread, they state they are for use with 40k if they have the stamp and if your opponent is happy to play them. You refuse to acknowledge this because of whatever reason it is, but the fact is it is there, and telling people otherwise isn't fair as some poor sap someday will listen, fork out €100 on some model, and then find his local club won't agree to it, something he would have known could happen if some fanboy on the internet didn't insist otherwise.

The "if your opponent is happy" rule applies to anything. Telling people otherwise isn't fair, because they might listen and buy an Ork army and then find out that their local club doesn't allow Orks. This isn't something special about FW, it's just a common-sense fact about a game involving two people. The only reason FW adds that comment is that many people aren't familiar with FW rules, so you should give them fair warning and let them read the book before you start the game.

And yes, some people will be {censored}s and impose their personal house rules about army construction, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules as published by GW state that FW rules are 100% official and meant for use in standard 40k. It's not my fault that some people have limited options for who they can play against, and are stuck with opponents who don't follow the rules of the game.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Peregrine wrote: However, Games Workshop, the people who actually decide what is legal or not, have clearly stated that all FW rules for 40k are intended for use in standard games.

As was pointed out with photographic evidence in the other thread, they state they are for use with 40k if they have the stamp and if your opponent is happy to play them. You refuse to acknowledge this because of whatever reason it is, but the fact is it is there, and telling people otherwise isn't fair as some poor sap someday will listen, fork out €100 on some model, and then find his local club won't agree to it, something he would have known could happen if some fanboy on the internet didn't insist otherwise.

I'm a huge fan of ForgeWorld, but I'm a fan of reality more.

I could bring a Necron flying circus and get the same reaction from many players. Should GW have a warning on them to ask your opponent first before bringing a really nasty list to game night?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Peregrine wrote: However, Games Workshop, the people who actually decide what is legal or not, have clearly stated that all FW rules for 40k are intended for use in standard games.

As was pointed out with photographic evidence in the other thread, they state they are for use with 40k if they have the stamp and if your opponent is happy to play them. You refuse to acknowledge this because of whatever reason it is, but the fact is it is there, and telling people otherwise isn't fair as some poor sap someday will listen, fork out €100 on some model, and then find his local club won't agree to it, something he would have known could happen if some fanboy on the internet didn't insist otherwise.

I'm a huge fan of ForgeWorld, but I'm a fan of reality more.

In what world do you live in where "hey these rules are harder to find than most things, so make sure your opponent knows and understands them" means "no one will ever agree to play FW"?

Just make a copy of the Hyperios's rules, and if someone asks what it is, show it to them. If they refuse to play it, they're not the type of opponent you want to play anyway.

Canadian 5th wrote:I could bring a Necron flying circus and get the same reaction from many players. Should GW have a warning on them to ask your opponent first before bringing a really nasty list to game night?

And they have that right. But it doesn't change the fact of what's written in the FW books, and that's why some players refuse to paly against it; the difference here is if he refuses to play your Necrons, he is just likely being a sorry sport because he thinks he will lose, whereas if he refuses your FW it's because he doesn't know it and the rules specifically say his permission is needed. Chances are if you go to a club and a player won't play your FW nobody will think anything of it, but he refuses to play Codex materials he'll get a slagging at the very least.

Indarys wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Peregrine wrote: However, Games Workshop, the people who actually decide what is legal or not, have clearly stated that all FW rules for 40k are intended for use in standard games.

As was pointed out with photographic evidence in the other thread, they state they are for use with 40k if they have the stamp and if your opponent is happy to play them. You refuse to acknowledge this because of whatever reason it is, but the fact is it is there, and telling people otherwise isn't fair as some poor sap someday will listen, fork out €100 on some model, and then find his local club won't agree to it, something he would have known could happen if some fanboy on the internet didn't insist otherwise.

I'm a huge fan of ForgeWorld, but I'm a fan of reality more.

In what world do you live in where "hey these rules are harder to find than most things, so make sure your opponent knows and understands them" means "no one will ever agree to play FW"?

Just make a copy of the Hyperios's rules, and if someone asks what it is, show it to them. If they refuse to play it, they're not the type of opponent you want to play anyway.

Am, what? I'm not sure I even understand what you just said, though it looks to me like you just put words in my mouth. ForgeWorld books says you need the get your opponent's permission, that's a fact. Accept that (most people agree to it these days, so why all the fuss to try and validate it?), and please don't bother trying to put words in my mouth again, or at least if you do, don't quote my post so that the words you are putting there aren't shown right above to clearly not exist; it makes you look silly.

I'm done having this debate though; for some reason when it comes to ForgeWorld, people start acting like silly fanboys and shoving their game down people's throats. If people really can't see the difference between the FW situation and not wanting to play a power list say, then why bother? It is within the rules to bring as cheesy a list as you want, but within the points limit agreed for the game. An agreed points limit is part of the rules of your game. Whether or not to use ForgeWorld is the same thing; more akin to the points limit or mission than any individual army choices.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
ForgeWorld books says you need the get your opponent's permission, that's a fact.

No they don't. The word "permission" is never used.

What it does say is that you should make sure your opponent is willing to play against FW rules that they might not be familiar with yet, just like you should make sure that your opponent is willing to play against Orks before you start the game. Key word should, not must. It's about basic politeness and not suddenly announcing on turn 2 that your FW unit (that your opponent has never seen before) is arriving, not a requirement to obtain special permission.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
ForgeWorld books says you need the get your opponent's permission, that's a fact.

No they don't. The word "permission" is never used.

What it does say is that you should make sure your opponent is willing to play against FW rules that they might not be familiar with yet, just like you should make sure that your opponent is willing to play against Orks before you start the game. Key word should, not must. It's about basic politeness and not suddenly announcing on turn 2 that your FW unit (that your opponent has never seen before) is arriving, not a requirement to obtain special permission.

Do you know what 'willing to play against' means? It means they have to give to go ahead for you to use it. That is called getting permission.

As for the rule about Orks you mentioned as an example, can you point that out in the 40k rulebook, because I don't see it. See the final section of my last post which I editing when you repied to this. There is a difference between refusing to play something out of principle, and refusing to play something between the rules say it should be within the agreed rules of the game. It aso has a lot to do with the fact of what is readily available, and how that effects game balance and player knowledge. Saying this is the same thing as refusing to play Orks is a fallacy, plain and simple. But good luck with your non-discussion. We're never going to get anywhere.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
ForgeWorld books says you need the get your opponent's permission, that's a fact.

No they don't. The word "permission" is never used.

What it does say is that you should make sure your opponent is willing to play against FW rules that they might not be familiar with yet, just like you should make sure that your opponent is willing to play against Orks before you start the game. Key word should, not must. It's about basic politeness and not suddenly announcing on turn 2 that your FW unit (that your opponent has never seen before) is arriving, not a requirement to obtain special permission.

Do you know what 'willing to play against' means? It means they have to give to go ahead for you to use it. That is called getting permission.

As for the rule about Orks you mentioned as an example, can you point that out in the 40k rulebook, because I don't see it. See the final section of my last post which I editing when you repied to this. There is a difference between refusing to play something out of principle, and refusing to play something between the rules say it should be within the agreed rules of the game. It aso has a lot to do with the fact of what is readily available, and how that effects game balance and player knowledge. Saying this is the same thing as refusing to play Orks is a fallacy, plain and simple. But good luck with your non-discussion. We're never going to get anywhere.

Sadly for your argument, "it's best to make sure they are happy with" is not synonymous with "must get permission to".

*audible sigh*

There will be an AA variant of the Whirlwind in the Dark Angels Codex, it will replace the standard loadout, but gives you an S7 TL shot with Skyfire (no word on interceptor yet).

 Peregrine wrote:

In most places, FW is considered as much expansion as Cities of Death or Apocalypse and therefore not suitable for 'standard' pick-up game.

Sure, but some people (including many tournament organizers) consider allies, fortifications, and double FOCs at 2000 points to be "expansions" that they don't want to include. However, Games Workshop, the people who actually decide what is legal or not, have clearly stated that all FW rules for 40k are intended for use in standard games. Having a house rule that FW isn't allowed is no different than having a house rule that Orks are not allowed: you can do it, but you really shouldn't.

 bobtheoverlord wrote:
also, its not in my codex (I play DA), can i still bring it?

Yes. The Whirlwind Hyperios is available to DA (see the unit entry in the book for more details).

Except that at the start of the FW books it says that the conents are only to be included if both players agree.

davou wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

In most places, FW is considered as much expansion as Cities of Death or Apocalypse and therefore not suitable for 'standard' pick-up game.

Sure, but some people (including many tournament organizers) consider allies, fortifications, and double FOCs at 2000 points to be "expansions" that they don't want to include. However, Games Workshop, the people who actually decide what is legal or not, have clearly stated that all FW rules for 40k are intended for use in standard games. Having a house rule that FW isn't allowed is no different than having a house rule that Orks are not allowed: you can do it, but you really shouldn't.

 bobtheoverlord wrote:
also, its not in my codex (I play DA), can i still bring it?

Yes. The Whirlwind Hyperios is available to DA (see the unit entry in the book for more details).

Except that at the start of the FW books it says that the conents are only to be included if both players agree.

Except that at the start of the FW books it says that the contents should be considered "official" and doesn't say anything about "You are hereby bound to only use these models if both players agree"

Peregrine wrote:However, Games Workshop, the people who actually decide what is legal or not, have clearly stated that all FW rules for 40k are intended for use in standard games. Having a house rule that FW isn't allowed is no different than having a house rule that Orks are not allowed: you can do it, but you really shouldn't.

... it's a miniature wargame we're talking about here. A game, social interaction that some people find difficult because you occasionally have to think about someone else's feelings. Don't assume everyone else will want to play the game in the way that you find it to be more agreeable and then show off when they don't. They might want to play it differently to you, or just use the main rule book & official army codex books, so you have to talk and interact from the start. Part of that process is making sure that you're both happy to play the other, and there are no surprises half way through a game ("your unit does WHAT?!").

The answer to the question "is FW legal in standard games?" is, "Yes, if your opponent is happy to".


- edited as it read a lot nastier than was intended

There will be an AA variant of the Whirlwind in the Dark Angels Codex, it will replace the standard loadout, but gives you an S7 TL shot with Skyfire (no word on interceptor yet).

Can you please elaborate More Dakka, this has got me interested, do you have any other info

Also, i probably will end up getting a hyperios

I lot of places don't use FW. Mostly I find because the models and the rules are hard to come by.

-Matt

infinityandbeyond wrote:


The answer to the question "is FW legal in standard games?" is, "Yes, if your opponent is happy to".

Actually, the answer is "Yes, but it's polite to make sure your opponent knows the rules".

 Peregrine wrote:


The "if your opponent is happy" rule applies to anything. Telling people otherwise isn't fair, because they might listen and buy an Ork army and then find out that their local club doesn't allow Orks. This isn't something special about FW, it's just a common-sense fact about a game involving two people. The only reason FW adds that comment is that many people aren't familiar with FW rules, so you should give them fair warning and let them read the book before you start the game.

And the chance that the local club has banned Orks altogether is the same as the chance they're not allowing FW. Right.

 bobtheoverlord wrote:

There will be an AA variant of the Whirlwind in the Dark Angels Codex, it will replace the standard loadout, but gives you an S7 TL shot with Skyfire (no word on interceptor yet).

Can you please elaborate More Dakka, this has got me interested, do you have any other info

Also, i probably will end up getting a hyperios

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=24243

All hearsay but the rumors through BoLS do usually have at least a grain of truth to them

/backontopic

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


The "if your opponent is happy" rule applies to anything. Telling people otherwise isn't fair, because they might listen and buy an Ork army and then find out that their local club doesn't allow Orks. This isn't something special about FW, it's just a common-sense fact about a game involving two people. The only reason FW adds that comment is that many people aren't familiar with FW rules, so you should give them fair warning and let them read the book before you start the game.

And the chance that the local club has banned Orks altogether is the same as the chance they're not allowing FW. Right.

Agreed. Using Orks, or any GW material really is a horrible example.

 Alkasyn wrote:
And the chance that the local club has banned Orks altogether is the same as the chance they're not allowing FW. Right.

Sure, it's less likely, but it's exactly as justified as banning FW. Or, if you want a more likely example, just look at how many tournaments ban some combination of allies/fortifications/double FOC, or players who won't play against GK/necron flyerspam/etc.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Agreed. Using Orks, or any GW material really is a horrible example.

You're right, using GW material is a horrible example, so we should think of something besides FW rules to use when discussing house rule bans of various things .

Concerning the "FW allowed or not" discussion:

Alright, time to throw in my thoughts with the Space Marines:

alright so right now everyone knows that there isn't much AA on the field except some fortifications and other flyers, and that Storm talons are one of our only defenses. The general lack of AA (IG aside) is what is causing the Talon to be so dang annoying. when Armies start getting more anti air, I can see myself trading the talon for the whirlwind or something else for added support and for yet another vehicle on the table.

did that make sense?