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Allies have been on my mind a lot, mostly becuase, like most experienced 40k players I have more than one army (Tau, GK, and a dash of silver marines for the old daemonhunters ally rules, FYI) and there are obvious advantages to it. It’s one of my favorite things about 6th ed, btw, as it breaths new life into old armies, and it gives people like me that have mostly complete armies an excuse to buy “just a few” of some new army….which will probably segue into an entire army at some point. (which of course is GW’s plan, but I forgive them their mercantile intent driving rules this time; it’s just too fun)

This has been mostly a GK blog so far, but truth be told most of my time has been spent thinking about Tau….they have new viability with the change to rapid fire more general vehicle changes (massed str 5 is a vehicle killer now). However, unlike GK, which are pretty well self contained, Tau almost need allies because their weaknesses are so profound (assault and anti-psychic, lack of flyers).

I think we can assume for the sake of argument that ALL armies have something that potential partners will want; even Black Templars have cheap 5 man las/plas squads, terminators with tank hunting cyclone launchers (and a double dose too), and 20 point cheaper typhoon land speeders.

But there’s a cost here: obviously we have to buy 1 HQ and 1 Troop, and just obviously, not all HQs are created equal. HQs are usually not nearly as “points efficient” as regular troops — one of the main mistakes new players tend to make is over-tooled-up, bloated HQs– but most provide a decent “punch” that let you enforce local dominance in a small section of the field. Troops can vary everywhere from fastastic, as capable as the elites of other armies, to near wastes of points that people have always felt forced to take. We’re going to call these mandatory HQs and troops the “Tax”, which will be low when things are either cheap or super effective, or high when they’re useless.

There’s a second, more subtle factor going on that is probably under appreciated, though. Internal synergies and force multipliers, ways in which the army is meant to support itself. A good example would be Tau markerlights. These are pure force multipliers, and they obviously work better if you have a certain mass of Tau to utilize them properly. So, you’re unlikely to get much use out of markerlights in a small ally force, and conversely, by adding allies into a Tau army you’re creating some portion of your force that can’t use them. Less obvious internal synergies include things such as SW Wolf Guard and BA priests (both of which require an Elites slot) and Necron courts (which are a free slot, but still need units to put them in).

These are just things to keep in mind when adding allies into your list…..it’s fun and exciting but you are usually paying a premium to do so. It’s good to understand what that cost is and make sure it’s worth it.


The rest of the article is at http://prometheusatwar.com/2012/08/the-allies-tax-and-internal-codex-force-multipliers-or-the-cost-to-take-allies-in-6th-ed/ I just don't want to format all the heading and whatnot here.

I agree 100%

I think this is the main thing people forget when they are taking allies or crying "ALLIES IZ BROKEN WAAAAH"(there's also double FoC whining too)



Yeah, my GKs can take Tau as allies to get some Broadsides. Yum, 3 Str10 AP1 TL BS3 shots. But at what cost?

At the very cheapest,

Shas'el: Thats an easy 120ish points for not a whole lot. I mean, 3 T4 3+ save wounds with a couple of Str6 AP2 shots and a couple of Str7 AP4 shots. Thats not great, its not bad either.

6 Fire Warriors. 60 points of lame. They bring nothing to the GK army besides a scoring unit. We already have Str5 shooting(and in greater quantities)

Then we finally can get the Broadsides.


So for around 500 points, we get 3 Str10 Ap1 shots, an expensive 3 wound HQ unit that has moderate firepower, and 6 useless bodies to sit on an objective.

What could this get you in the GK codex?

2 pimped out Stormravens.

a fully loaded 10 man Terminator squad.

2 squads of Purifiers pimped out.

A Grandmaster and another Purifier squad.

See, what I've been doing (Tau and GK also happen to be my two armies) is adding GK to my Tau force instead. The thing is that cheap or effective troops make the best allies....and I'm bring GK for the troops.

I've been saying this since day 1.

I'm happy for you to take a Farseer ally since I know you'll also have to take guardians. Both of them are easily killed and a significant drain on points that would have made the rest of your army much stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Yeah, my GKs can take Tau as allies to get some Broadsides. Yum, 3 Str10 AP1 TL BS3 shots. But at what cost?

At the very cheapest,

Shas'el: Thats an easy 120ish points for not a whole lot. I mean, 3 T4 3+ save wounds with a couple of Str6 AP2 shots and a couple of Str7 AP4 shots. Thats not great, its not bad either.

6 Fire Warriors. 60 points of lame. They bring nothing to the GK army besides a scoring unit. We already have Str5 shooting(and in greater quantities)

Then we finally can get the Broadsides.


So for around 500 points, we get 3 Str10 Ap1 shots, an expensive 3 wound HQ unit that has moderate firepower, and 6 useless bodies to sit on an objective.

What could this get you in the GK codex?

2 pimped out Stormravens.

a fully loaded 10 man Terminator squad.

2 squads of Purifiers pimped out.

A Grandmaster and another Purifier squad.

Things like that make me think...if having broadsides is so damn good, you'd be collecting Tau in the first place.

Same with people saying that marines can get 3 Leman Russes as a back-up. Yes, they can. But if you wanted Russes, you'd be playing the Guard

There are a few instances that allies are very useful, mainly across MEQ codexes since they naturally synergise. But 90% of the time GEQ bodies in a MEQ list, or vice versa, will be expensive and questionable.

Well, I think GEQ benifits from MEQ allies but not always the other way around.

In some cases you are right, it goes from a nice idea to a real point sink and very quickly.
But some allies do work.

CSM and daemons are one that really do benefit quite a bit from the allies.
Kairos or a thirster now give real pushing power thanks to FMC and kairos's bubble.
Taking oblitz in a daemon army gives a real punch to armour.
Plague marines and letters etc all as troops is nice as you then have a shooty unit that can hold while you have a pure all out combat unit for assaulting.

Main issue with daemons at the current time? the way they arrive.
Usually you have 50% on the board and your sat about waiting.
Now you have 75% of your army present and the other 25% comes in as and when.
Really does remove the threat of being wiped out as units drop in.

The biggest reason for Allies (And why I think they included them), is it is a cheap way for vet players with one army to start up a second full army.

Have 4000 points of Marines? Want to start guard? Just by 1 HQ and 1 Troop and you are on your way to playing guard.

It is nothing but a marketing ploy that will work.

I think I can make an even shorter summary:

Allies make a terrible codex better and a great codex the same or worse.

When you're already at the top of the heap in every facet of the game, like Grey Knights, allies can't make you better at anything.

GKs can benifit from Guard allies. They can cover the weakness the GK codex has and thats a lack of long range shooting as well as low body count.

Hey, for around 150 points you can get the 1 HQ and 1 Troop then get 3 LRBTs. The HQ and Troops can sit on an objective and shoot a lascannon each turn or something. And its not all that expensive either.

But other then this, I can't really see a decent ally for GKs.

With the new rules for FMC, they are even more of a threat now.
Ally with some DE?
Venoms with twin cannons cant hurt, and the points cost for taking them is nothing compared to the use you get from them.
Cheap HQ? just run a basic skinman if you like.

So to take DE as an ally, it really does not cost alot, but Darkness hit the nail on the head.
Other than providing variety, it really dont do alot
Just means my daemons get to roll with CSM once again.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, I think GEQ benifits from MEQ allies but not always the other way around.

As a guard player I would *much* rather have another Russ than a tactical squad and a Librarian. Though a LC+Blob can be handy for holding objectives for MEQ, still probably not better than more points spent on their own army.

nevermind.

GKs are a bad example for ally efficiency , because they dont battle brother .

Battlebrother ally are a totaly different thing , then the whole easily killed part stops being a problem . It is hard to kill a SW RP in a 30 or bigger IG blob . A harli star works because eldar are bros etc . If GK could battlebrother other marines or IG we would get some realy horrible [as in to play against] builds.

As a guard player I would *much* rather have another Russ than a tactical squad and a Librarian. Though a LC+Blob can be handy for holding objectives for MEQ, still probably not better than more points spent on their own army.

how about a rune priest with a +4 dispel staff , a unit of GH[with a terminator WG standing upfront] and some LFs ?

 Testify wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, I think GEQ benifits from MEQ allies but not always the other way around.

As a guard player I would *much* rather have another Russ than a tactical squad and a Librarian. Though a LC+Blob can be handy for holding objectives for MEQ, still probably not better than more points spent on their own army.

If you put a cheap SM IC in your blob ("cheap" unfortunately still being a 100 pts or so) the blog gets ATSKNF. No foolin'.

About Tau and IG for GK - they do not provide scoring units because they are Allies of Convenience. In fact, Allies are basically a waste imho unless you're taking Battle Brothers for this very reason. GK are usually just better off sticking with their own units and spamming henchmen if they need bodies.

Hmm... I thought allies of convenience did allow allied troops to score. Must check again. I don't know that much about GK, but I agree in principle with Darkness Eternal. Regarding Tau I need to get around to trying out a Tau army backed up by Belial and some assault Deathwing.

Actually, if you were so inclined you could easily use a Fire Warrior squad as a cheap garrison for an Aegis line to defend a home-area objective.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
About Tau and IG for GK - they do not provide scoring units because they are Allies of Convenience. In fact, Allies are basically a waste imho unless you're taking Battle Brothers for this very reason. GK are usually just better off sticking with their own units and spamming henchmen if they need bodies.

I'm sorry, you're mistaken....allies of convenience still score. It's only "desperate allies" that don't score.

Makumba wrote:
GKs are a bad example for ally efficiency , because they dont battle brother .

Similar thought in response to you...."allies of convenience" isn't a huge imposition, it just means your ICs can't join your allies, and the psychic powers and auras don't carry over (most auras were errata'd in the FAQs not to carry over, anyway). Other than weird things like allying with Immotek (Conveinance allies are technically enemies, and his lightning will strike them!) I don't think it changes a lot of peoples plans much. I wouldn't really want my GK allies in my Tau units anyway (except for Coteaz) because they're just doing different things to different people and have different plans most of the game.

Now, it sure would be nice to use divination from my GK on my Tau units....but it's not the hugest deal. Suits can twin-link and there's always markerlights, anyway. Now, I COULD use Divination from Eldar on my Tau.....but is that worth a much less efficient HQ (runes of warding aside) and generally useless troops (except for guardian jetbikes! Hmmmm.....sweet jet bikes)?

Well, it's questions like that that prompted me to write this post. Tau was my first army and GK my second (welllllllllll before the latest codex, mind you) so I already have GK painted up all pretty. It's been working well so far....the GKSS put out high quality dakka and grab the center while the tau work around the edges and do most of the real killing.

I'm still on the fence, and will probably wind up buying a couple of bikes, a farseer and perhaps a Wraith Lord....not a huge investment and I like the way the WL looks, anwyay. But yeah, those are the issues I'm wrestling with.

Makumba wrote:
how about a rune priest with a +4 dispel staff , a unit of GH[with a terminator WG standing upfront] and some LFs ?

To me that's dead weight. My opponent's MEQ firepower would focus on them and wipe them out, I'd far rather have more dakka.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
If you put a cheap SM IC in your blob ("cheap" unfortunately still being a 100 pts or so) the blog gets ATSKNF. No foolin'.

Aye but blobs are rubbish now. In 4th that'd be pretty sweet.

This is definitely an issue that occurred to me early on. If I want to bring that vendetta from the IG codex, I will have to pay 100 points more than it costs as I need to bring a command squad and 10 guardsman.

Often enough the point costs of HQ, troop and toy end up being pretty high. Most codexes have something that you'd rather take for the huge point investment. This gets worse if the forces you take are not battle brothers.

The key to taking good allies is to find units that do a similar job to a troop, HQ, toy that you already use, but they do the job better.

One example that I've been mulling over is to bring Sisters into my Guard army. Bringing Celestine gives me a descent CC HQ that can help protect my rear lines or can actually get across the board to contest things. Then a Sisters squad replaces a unit of melta vets as a counter attack unit. I also gain the benefit of having a troop choice that is more survivable that can go up field to secure mid field objectives.

So as pointed out by the OP, you need to plan a use for all the Allies you bring. Otherwise you pay a premium cost to use the 1 thing that you wanted to bring.

bogalubov: Actually, the cheapest version of IG vendetta ally is 50 (CCS) + 70 (Veterans) + Vendetta cost. Not 100 + vendetta cost. Not to mention your will upgrade your CCs and veterans so they can to at least somethink. CCS + LC + VEterans + LC is 160 points. Then you can get your vendettas

Sir_Prometheus: A SM IC for 100 points for ATSKNF is not worth it.

btw. IG is a great ally for space marines. Space marines lack the posibility of fielding cheap objective holders. Also you can take Astropath, if you plan to outflank or deep strike, who can really help you. I would play IG allies for marine like this: CCS + LC + Astropath + PCS + AC + 2x IS+AC+GL. 270 points. Costly, but very resilient objective holders with nice buff to your outflank/deep strike.

How about 140 points for ATSKNF, some psychic powers, and a force weapon toting baddy in TDA with a stormshield?

 Testify wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
If you put a cheap SM IC in your blob ("cheap" unfortunately still being a 100 pts or so) the blog gets ATSKNF. No foolin'.

Aye but blobs are rubbish now. In 4th that'd be pretty sweet.

Mur? Not really an authority on IG but I'd heard the opposite.

bogalubov wrote:
This is definitely an issue that occurred to me early on. If I want to bring that vendetta from the IG codex, I will have to pay 100 points more than it costs as I need to bring a command squad and 10 guardsman.

Still not an authority on IG but it's hard to see how a cheap little troop choice (sub 100 pts) is ever a bad thing, never mind that you can give them three melta or plasma (whatever you're lacking) and drop them out of a vendetta on either on an objective, or a tank that needs some melting.

One example that I've been mulling over is to bring Sisters into my Guard army. Bringing Celestine gives me a descent CC HQ that can help protect my rear lines or can actually get across the board to contest things. Then a Sisters squad replaces a unit of melta vets as a counter attack unit. I also gain the benefit of having a troop choice that is more survivable that can go up field to secure mid field objectives.

So, Celestine is totally disgusting (I mean it, if I could remove one unit from the game, it'd be her), but how are we figuring 145 pts of sisters with 2 meltas is better than 100 pts of veterans with 3? (this is mentioned in the linked blog post)

So as pointed out by the OP, you need to plan a use for all the Allies you bring. Otherwise you pay a premium cost to use the 1 thing that you wanted to bring.

As the OP, I agree.

 Lothar wrote:
Sir_Prometheus: A SM IC for 100 points for ATSKNF is not worth it.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
How about 140 points for ATSKNF, some psychic powers, and a force weapon toting baddy in TDA with a stormshield?

What he said.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
About Tau and IG for GK - they do not provide scoring units because they are Allies of Convenience. In fact, Allies are basically a waste imho unless you're taking Battle Brothers for this very reason. GK are usually just better off sticking with their own units and spamming henchmen if they need bodies.

I'm sorry, you're mistaken....allies of convenience still score. It's only "desperate allies" that don't score.

Not so sure about that. Desperate Allies are treated exactly like Allies of Convenience, the only difference being the 1/6 chance of not acting if within 6". Allies of Convenience are treated as if they are enemy units that cannot be targeted by any of your attacks. So they can contest but not score unless I'm sorely missing something in the rules.

*EDIT*
Hmm apparently there's some discussion about it on YMDC... might have to wait for an FAQ on it then...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
About Tau and IG for GK - they do not provide scoring units because they are Allies of Convenience. In fact, Allies are basically a waste imho unless you're taking Battle Brothers for this very reason. GK are usually just better off sticking with their own units and spamming henchmen if they need bodies.

I'm sorry, you're mistaken....allies of convenience still score. It's only "desperate allies" that don't score.

Not so sure about that. Desperate Allies are treated exactly like Allies of Convenience, the only difference being the 1/6 chance of not acting if within 6". Allies of Convenience are treated as if they are enemy units that cannot be targeted by any of your attacks. So they can contest but not score unless I'm sorely missing something in the rules.

*EDIT*
Hmm apparently there's some discussion about it on YMDC... might have to wait for an FAQ on it then...

Um...no idea what silliness they're discussing on YMDC, but it's super clear on PG 112.

The 'Can't score' restriction is under Desperate Allies.

This is a nice discussion topic.

Allies are definitely not a mandatory buy. The addition of Allies to an army does not always improve the build and can often hinder the build. For the most part I like the idea of Allies simply because I will not have to invest in an entire new army to get a taste of what they can do. I'm a very indecisive player and like to switch things up frequently. I've never had a set build that I always play. It doesn't help me too much since I currently play Nids but when I go back to my SM and BA, I'll be ready to try it all out.

Allies also seem a lot better utilized at a higher point value, over 1500 points but under 2000 probably. This will reduce the effect of the "Tax" since those higher point values would mean you are more likely to include 1 more HQ and Troop anyways so giving it to an Ally isn't that big of a deal. This of course is reversed once you hit the double FOC of 2000 point games.

*EDIT*
Hmm apparently there's some discussion about it on YMDC... might have to wait for an FAQ on it then...

I looked it up, found the thread, one guy (who couldn't spell "convenience") proposed they can't score, 5 people pointed out that yes, they can, and then all was quiet.

I'm not linking to the thread, it would encourage silliness.

Ok well in any case, scoring questions aside, way back when people were still discussing the rumours surrounding allies, I said they probably wouldn't be worth it more often than not due to the tax idea. It was hard enough to work a list in to 1500-2000pts, let alone cramming a 2nd army in there and making everything mesh together perfectly.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How about 140 points for ATSKNF, some psychic powers, and a force weapon toting baddy in TDA with a stormshield?

You clearly missed what I had in mind. 100 points for ATSKNF is not worth it (SM Captain for example). 100 points for psychic power IS worth it (Runepriest). 40 points for adding TDA and stormshield is not worth it (do you really want to lose your psyker? No, you dont, you do not let him fight, so you dont need TDA).

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
See, what I've been doing (Tau and GK also happen to be my two armies) is adding GK to my Tau force instead. The thing is that cheap or effective troops make the best allies....and I'm bring GK for the troops.

A cheap Inquisitor unlocking a Warband in a Psyback would be rather cost effective.
But what would you get at the battle field?
Here the Inquisitor should have rad and psychostroke grenades and lead an assault based squad (Termies) to make more use if him/her.