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 Testify wrote:

Makumba wrote:
how about a rune priest with a +4 dispel staff , a unit of GH[with a terminator WG standing upfront] and some LFs ?

To me that's dead weight. My opponent's MEQ firepower would focus on them and wipe them out, I'd far rather have more dakka.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
If you put a cheap SM IC in your blob ("cheap" unfortunately still being a 100 pts or so) the blog gets ATSKNF. No foolin'.

Aye but blobs are rubbish now. In 4th that'd be pretty sweet.

Going to have to back up testify here. There's a reason you see other players getting excited to take allies, but when it comes to Allies threads, IG players could care less about it.

The reason why is that our stuff is so cheap, literally almost any choice in another amy is a huge chunk of points to us. That 140 Pt termie chaplain the one guy suggested? Thats only TEN POINTS LESS than a Leman Russ Battletank. And I'd imagine you can guess which a typical Ig player will choose. Not to mention we havent even added on the mandatory Troop choice you have to buy with him, which will be a lot more points. Armies like orks can make a good ally, but only because their codex mirrors how IG works (aka strong/dirt cheap troops and HQ's) I've considered bringing a couple of 20 strong shoota boy mobs, some lootas, and a KFF Big mek to back up my foot IG list more than once (KFF affects all ground infantry, even enemy units, but not enemy vehicles. So at least there's no KFF Leman Russes ) Whereas I would never consider space marine dexes, as they try to shore up weaknesses IG have by bringing in a lot more, and possibly far worse ones. Sisters of battle are a wierd one, and I'm starting to look at them for fun, but I'll wait until i know more about them to say anything.

I think OP's post hit the nail on the head. For most armies, especially stronger codexes, allies are more of a handicap than a help.

I think allies are very usefull, but only at bigger points. You can say that the tax is great, but you can also build an army from about half allies and half your primary force where every unit is important (there is no tax here, because you can use very well all your units, just like in your normal non ally army list). My brother is considering Eldar and DE army. Both of them are adding something which the other one lacks. DE army with psychic powers (divination from Farseer or Eldrad) and the best psychic defense in the game is nothing to spit at. Eldars on the other hand lack some cheap options which can provide much firepower - Venoms will help you with that. Also, Eldars dont have flyers at the moment. DE can provide. You can combine them and get a nice army. Nothing OP, but certainly something worth it.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
See, what I've been doing (Tau and GK also happen to be my two armies) is adding GK to my Tau force instead. The thing is that cheap or effective troops make the best allies....and I'm bring GK for the troops.

A cheap Inquisitor unlocking a Warband in a Psyback would be rather cost effective.
But what would you get at the battle field?
Here the Inquisitor should have rad and psychostroke grenades and lead an assault based squad (Termies) to make more use if him/her.

Psybacks are sooooo 5th edition... I'm kinda kidding, but the real question is, what is that psyback and henchmen adding that the Tau don't have? If all you're looking for is cheap scorers I can get 10 kroot for around the same cost.

I've been using fully kitted GKSS squad, on foot, with either Coteaz or a psybolt inq with divination. More damage output on the dakka end than FW, and psycannons are obviously useful, and they make for a sorta light counter attack unit.

On the subject of allies, I'm considering picking up a box of Grey Knight Terminators and maybe a grand master this weekend for a fun Scoring unit addition to my Space Marine or Eldar Army. Allies of Convencience makes it, well ... convenient, and I can get terminators with Thunderhammers for my Eldar much more cheaply than say from my Codex Marines (due to the force organization). That would be a fun counterpoint unit for an all skimmer army, to teleport in some Grey Knight Goodness, for 400-500 points with HQ of choice. This adds a super resilient unit, that Eldar really don't have (Wraithguard sorta, but certainly not the same kind of killiness/survivability).

We'll probably see lots of Grey Knight Terminator Allies in other armies, I'm guessing.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
See, what I've been doing (Tau and GK also happen to be my two armies) is adding GK to my Tau force instead. The thing is that cheap or effective troops make the best allies....and I'm bring GK for the troops.

A cheap Inquisitor unlocking a Warband in a Psyback would be rather cost effective.
But what would you get at the battle field?
Here the Inquisitor should have rad and psychostroke grenades and lead an assault based squad (Termies) to make more use if him/her.

Do keep in mind that unless you are using Coteaz as your Inquisitor, warbands are (non-FOC) Elites, so they're not scoring, and awesome as Coteaz is, he's not a "cheap" Inquisitor. That's one of my "annoyed with the GK codex" bits, as it's keeping me from sticking flavorful Inquisitors in various armies without being forced to bring a unit of GK's. While most Imperial armies could use a squad of awesome power-armored Troops choices (and one doesn't have to build them as "Grey Knights", just make sure they have the right weapons) it's not always desirable.

What im thinking most as an ally unit would be something along the lines of Deathwing for a Space Marine army. this give you a 130 pts HQ With terminators as troop choices which i feel can really help the weak assualt in a C:SM army

That tax isnt overly expensive for a ally unit because all units are excellent and scoring

 CIAbugguy wrote:
What im thinking most as an ally unit would be something along the lines of Deathwing for a Space Marine army. this give you a 130 pts HQ With terminators as troop choices which i feel can really help the weak assualt in a C:SM army

That tax isnt overly expensive for a ally unit because all units are excellent and scoring

Compare this to an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor w/ terminator armor, psycannon - 80 pts, leading a GK Terminator unit. The unit can be larger than 5 but has no access to storm shields.

Tax or no the opportunity to make a full Lost and the Damned force by using CSM w/ cultist plus adding Demon allies is just too good to pass up.

Allies 'tax' can easily become an allies tax credit if it lets you do something your own codex can't do, or only does with less efficiency/higher cost.

For isntance: SM flyers can be quite pricey, even if they do have scary firepower. But for the price of one Stormraven, you can almost have a squad of 2 Vendettas/Valkyries for all your zooming needs!

SM Devatators are meh. Expensive, no frills, bad at multitasking. So why not get those long-envied Long Fangs to explode DE Raiders with at twice the speed, lesser cost, and with an amazing Rune Priest attached to boot, bringing you again better psy-defense and powers on the cheap?

Same for Ba assault marines being scoring and better than their vanilla peers, and whatnot

And let's not even address the rather big disparity in choice and flexibility of allies across armies, which means that these taxes can be quite regressive!

 Magc8Ball wrote:
...........and awesome as Coteaz is, he's not a "cheap" Inquisitor.

Coteaz is 100 pts, which while more expensive than most inquisitor builds is still cheaper than any other HQ GK have. (well, same as champions) "Cheap" to Grey Knights is a very relative term. And he's a psyker equal to what most other armies are paying 150+ pts for, PLUS he's got all these little useful abilities like shooting deep strikers, re-rolling to seize initiative, and sure, stubborn.

It's an awful lot for 100 pts. Way more than say, Draigo is for 275 pts.

jbunny wrote:
The biggest reason for Allies (And why I think they included them), is it is a cheap way for vet players with one army to start up a second full army.

Have 4000 points of Marines? Want to start guard? Just by 1 HQ and 1 Troop and you are on your way to playing guard.

It is nothing but a marketing ploy that will work.

As someone who has a hard time picking between armies, I like this ploy!

As stated earlier, you cant really bolster a top tier army, but you can for a much lower army.

De alone are a pretty solid choice, but taken as allies they really can help with MC's and other such issues.
Seem to only really benefit lower tier armies.

Daemons get a nice boost from chaos allies as anti-tank really does get bolstered.
So i guess i can start a small knorne army to go with my khornate daemons

As a Tyranid player I also have been thinking about Allies a lot.

:(

 Sephyr wrote:

Allies 'tax' can easily become an allies tax credit if it lets you do something your own codex can't do, or only does with less efficiency/higher cost.

For isntance: SM flyers can be quite pricey, even if they do have scary firepower. But for the price of one Stormraven, you can almost have a squad of 2 Vendettas/Valkyries for all your zooming needs!

Squadrenning Vendettas is a bad idea. 260 points plus the 120 point minimum for HQ+Troop? Go for it. If you're using Stormravens without using them to transport something into assault, then why are you running them?

 Sephyr wrote:

SM Devatators are meh. Expensive, no frills, bad at multitasking. So why not get those long-envied Long Fangs to explode DE Raiders with at twice the speed, lesser cost, and with an amazing Rune Priest attached to boot, bringing you again better psy-defense and powers on the cheap?

Same for Ba assault marines being scoring and better than their vanilla peers, and whatnot

And let's not even address the rather big disparity in choice and flexibility of allies across armies, which means that these taxes can be quite regressive!

You saved 40 points in your list by using allies to get every unit as cheaply as possible. Woo.

I'm a fan of a 50 point herald and some cheap daemon troops in my IG army. It gives the army some counter attack that it just can't get any other way.

-Matt

 Testify wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

Allies 'tax' can easily become an allies tax credit if it lets you do something your own codex can't do, or only does with less efficiency/higher cost.

For isntance: SM flyers can be quite pricey, even if they do have scary firepower. But for the price of one Stormraven, you can almost have a squad of 2 Vendettas/Valkyries for all your zooming needs!

Squadrenning Vendettas is a bad idea. 260 points plus the 120 point minimum for HQ+Troop? Go for it. If you're using Stormravens without using them to transport something into assault, then why are you running them?

 Sephyr wrote:

SM Devatators are meh. Expensive, no frills, bad at multitasking. So why not get those long-envied Long Fangs to explode DE Raiders with at twice the speed, lesser cost, and with an amazing Rune Priest attached to boot, bringing you again better psy-defense and powers on the cheap?

Same for Ba assault marines being scoring and better than their vanilla peers, and whatnot

And let's not even address the rather big disparity in choice and flexibility of allies across armies, which means that these taxes can be quite regressive!

You saved 40 points in your list by using allies to get every unit as cheaply as possible. Woo.

Yep, still don't get why people think this way. It doesn't matter how many points you "saved" on a unit, when you have to pay at least a 100 or so points just to unlock it, and far more if you want something useful from that mandatory troop and HQ.

If you can find a bunch of stuff that meshes with your army, great, but most of the time I've found that it weakens almost any army.

 Testify wrote:

You saved 40 points in your list by using allies to get every unit as cheaply as possible. Woo.

Except I got -better- units for less, which you are disregarding for some reason. It may not mean much for IG players who get plenty of power on the cheap, but it definitely makes a difference.

 Sephyr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

You saved 40 points in your list by using allies to get every unit as cheaply as possible. Woo.

Except I got -better- units for less, which you are disregarding for some reason. It may not mean much for IG players who get plenty of power on the cheap, but it definitely makes a difference.

I'm not going to deny it'd be useful for many MEQ players to take BA allies and grab a couple of assault squads on the cheap, I just really don't think it's significant.

MarsNZ wrote:
Tax or no the opportunity to make a full Lost and the Damned force by using CSM w/ cultist plus adding Demon allies is just too good to pass up.

I think alot of Chaos players are in this boat, myself included

I'm planning on adding a SM captain, command squad, sternguard and probably scouts as the troops tax to my GK/inq army, because... I like Deathwatch, K?!

This is one of the things I like about the allies system, more than the complex tactical opportunities, is the chance to build an interesting and fluffy army. I know that's how they're going to sucker me in to collecting new stuf, but at least now when I succumb to the new shiny toy syndrome I have a chance of actually using it in a game.

I certainly thin it's great that you can pick your allies for fluff reasons. Of course, that's not really why I wrote the article, but it is fun!

I am holding out hope that the Allies book rumor turns out to be true, and that said book opens up basic inquisitors and their stormtroopers, because really, thats all I want to add to my Crimson Fists.

My main opponents are Necrons, Nids, Eldar, and Chaos, so for bigger battles, I just like the idea of including a small inquisitor retinue. Does it add much? Naw, its purely for fluff reasons, and when its 2000 points, you got enough room to play around with the fun stuff.

I love how well the eldar fire prism compliments my two hammerheads. You have space marines? Well luckily i have this handy AP2 blast weapon that works from the other side of the field. While moving at a fair clip! Though i have to admit i constantly find myself wishing the prism could make use of the markerlight.
I also enjoy the farseer blasting powers out of a wave serpent. It just feels so good twin-linking a hammerhead.

As far as the "tax" goes, the rangers/pathfinders bring sniper weapons into my army which I am happy to pay the cost for. It's such a waste using a railgun on something with T6.

[EDIT] Not relevant to OP.

ClassicCarraway wrote:
I am holding out hope that the Allies book rumor turns out to be true,

Uhhh,,,what allies book rumours?

I think allies is obviously a great way to foray into a new army and use your new models; also if you just really like that unit and your armies are compatible, then great - bring it. It adds variety to all the codexes and gives us umpteen different reasons to buy all the armies, as though there weren't enough already.

It also allows you to collect a whole army with allies in mind, which is cool. Coming up with really synchronious armies such as Eldar/Dark Eldar, or Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space Marines (or Chaos Daemons/Imperial Guard! would be disgusting ...) can make some killer lists, like said before where one army fills a void the other army is missing.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

Allies 'tax' can easily become an allies tax credit if it lets you do something your own codex can't do, or only does with less efficiency/higher cost.

For isntance: SM flyers can be quite pricey, even if they do have scary firepower. But for the price of one Stormraven, you can almost have a squad of 2 Vendettas/Valkyries for all your zooming needs!

Squadrenning Vendettas is a bad idea. 260 points plus the 120 point minimum for HQ+Troop? Go for it. If you're using Stormravens without using them to transport something into assault, then why are you running them?

 Sephyr wrote:

SM Devatators are meh. Expensive, no frills, bad at multitasking. So why not get those long-envied Long Fangs to explode DE Raiders with at twice the speed, lesser cost, and with an amazing Rune Priest attached to boot, bringing you again better psy-defense and powers on the cheap?

Same for Ba assault marines being scoring and better than their vanilla peers, and whatnot

And let's not even address the rather big disparity in choice and flexibility of allies across armies, which means that these taxes can be quite regressive!

You saved 40 points in your list by using allies to get every unit as cheaply as possible. Woo.

Yep, still don't get why people think this way. It doesn't matter how many points you "saved" on a unit, when you have to pay at least a 100 or so points just to unlock it, and far more if you want something useful from that mandatory troop and HQ.

If you can find a bunch of stuff that meshes with your army, great, but most of the time I've found that it weakens almost any army.

So I've been watching your comments for a while, and I think most of your opinion comes from the fact that IG are extremely cheap, efficient, and in many cases under-costed. You look at any particular unit from other armies, and you think "well, x points of guard can do way more damage than that" and even with cover et all, x number of bolter shots might kill less of you (in pts) than it would marines or whatever.

But just because IG units are extremely efficient, sometimes too efficient, doesn't mean that other lists can't add something to yours. You probably don't need counter-attack units the way say, Tau or Necrons do, since everything's so cheap, and you can just kill things after they die. But in a mirror match, would 10 marines drop podding on the enemy with flamers and then assault to disrupt a firebase be useful to you? How about something that has night fight, and can shoot long range when the game is night fight first turn (50% of games). How about just something big and nasty to draw fire in the front of the army, or super-fast scorers (faster than basic vehicles, like bikes or jet bikes).