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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I agree with insaniak. You can't hover strike after declaring that you are evading.
So technically the person couldn't have hover struck anyway

Well, I don't agree. I believe somewhere in the FAQs in regards to snap fire that regardless of modifiers to base BS, snap fire shots are "counted as BS 1". So the flyer can choose to evade with the effects of gaining the jink rule and having to snap fire untill end of the next turn. There is nothing saying the flyers actions are restricted outside of those two conditions. So if the model does hover strike, it still has the jink rule, fires as BS 1, counting as pinning and any of the other effects that go with hover strike.

If the flyer enters Hover Strike it is now a skimmer, not a flyer, and so rules that apply to flyers can't apply to it...

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I agree with insaniak. You can't hover strike after declaring that you are evading.
So technically the person couldn't have hover struck anyway

Well, I don't agree. I believe somewhere in the FAQs in regards to snap fire that regardless of modifiers to base BS, snap fire shots are "counted as BS 1". So the flyer can choose to evade with the effects of gaining the jink rule and having to snap fire untill end of the next turn. There is nothing saying the flyers actions are restricted outside of those two conditions. So if the model does hover strike, it still has the jink rule, fires as BS 1, counting as pinning and any of the other effects that go with hover strike.

Unless there's a FAQ I don't see it that way at all.

You have to be zooming to Evade. Evade lasts until the end of your next turn.

 insaniak wrote:
If the flyer enters Hover Strike it is now a skimmer, not a flyer, and so rules that apply to flyers can't apply to it...

But it was a flyer when the rule was first applied. It was even a flyer at the start of the turn in which it chooses to enter a hover strike. Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I agree with insaniak. You can't hover strike after declaring that you are evading.
So technically the person couldn't have hover struck anyway

Well, I don't agree. I believe somewhere in the FAQs in regards to snap fire that regardless of modifiers to base BS, snap fire shots are "counted as BS 1". So the flyer can choose to evade with the effects of gaining the jink rule and having to snap fire untill end of the next turn. There is nothing saying the flyers actions are restricted outside of those two conditions. So if the model does hover strike, it still has the jink rule, fires as BS 1, counting as pinning and any of the other effects that go with hover strike.

Unless there's a FAQ I don't see it that way at all.

You have to be zooming to Evade. Evade lasts until the end of your next turn.

Right, you must be zooming to evade. Evade lasts untill The end of the next turn. Nothing says, you must zoom in the next turn, only that you get the jink rule, and snap fire.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Nothing says, you must zoom in the next turn,...

This does:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Right, you must be zooming to evade. Evade lasts untill The end of the next turn.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

If you are evading you have to be zooming. It's spelled out clear in the rules of how you may evade.

So the next turn, you have to continue zooming. otherwise you've broken the "evade" rule

The rule does not say a zooming evading flyer, it says evading flyer. Having zoomed is a condition of getting to evade. But the word zoom is not in the bold portion of the text. No where does it say you have to continue zooming. It only says a zooming flyer, after it has been shot at, but before penetration rolls can chose to evade. You can't even chose to evade on your own turn, it is a reaction. Like overwatch.


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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

If you are evading you have to be zooming. It's spelled out clear in the rules of how you may evade.

So the next turn, you have to continue zooming. otherwise you've broken the "evade" rule

Not broken. Cause and effect.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

Evade only affects flyers. So yes, you have to be a flyer in order to be evading.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The rule does not say a zooming evading flyer, it says evading flyer. Having zoomed is a condition of getting to evade. But the word zoom is not in the bold portion of the text. No where does it say you have to continue zooming. It only says a zooming flyer, after it has been shot at, but before penetration rolls can chose to evade. You can't even chose to evade on your own turn, it is a reaction. Like overwatch.


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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

If you are evading you have to be zooming. It's spelled out clear in the rules of how you may evade.

So the next turn, you have to continue zooming. otherwise you've broken the "evade" rule

Not broken. Cause and effect.

Not cause and effect, not at all.

Zooming flyers may choose to evade.
go look and see if a non zooming flyer has that option. (nope)
Logically if evading you must be zooming, so if you evade you must continue to zoom next turn.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Nothing says, you must zoom in the next turn,...

This does:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Right, you must be zooming to evade. Evade lasts untill The end of the next turn.

Look at it this way.
Evade has an effect untill the end of the next turn. That effect is jink and snap fire.

or look at it this way,

must be zooming to evade.

Evade lasts until the end of your next turn

My turn

hmm I must be zooming to evade, I'm evading so I must continue to zoom.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Look at it this way.
Evade has an effect untill the end of the next turn. That effect is jink and snap fire.

Sure... except that's not what the rule actually says. If the rule said that a Flyer that Evades gains Jink and must Snap Fire until the end of the next turn, you would have a point. But it doesn't... it says that the Flyer that evades does so until the end of the next turn, and while evading it gains those rules.

Evade is not an instant effect that has a result that lasts that long... it's a rule that is in effect for that period. And in order for it to be in effect, the subject has to be a flyer for that duration, because Evade only affects flyers.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The rule does not say a zooming evading flyer, it says evading flyer. Having zoomed is a condition of getting to evade. But the word zoom is not in the bold portion of the text. No where does it say you have to continue zooming. It only says a zooming flyer, after it has been shot at, but before penetration rolls can chose to evade. You can't even chose to evade on your own turn, it is a reaction. Like overwatch.


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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

If you are evading you have to be zooming. It's spelled out clear in the rules of how you may evade.

So the next turn, you have to continue zooming. otherwise you've broken the "evade" rule

Not broken. Cause and effect.

Not cause and effect, not at all.

Zooming flyers may choose to evade.
go look and see if a non zooming flyer has that option. (nope)
Logically if evading you must be zooming, so if you evade you must continue to zoom next turn.

Logically that is a conditional statement we are trying to find the truth of. I believe if it was true the rule book would say an evading flyer must continue to zoom, gain jink and must snapefire. It does not. Once you have chosen to evade, the following effect takes place. "an evading flyer has the jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." two conditions must be met to choose to evade. 1 flyer. 2. Zooming. The effect (evading) lasts until the end of the next turn. If the flyer chose to hover in the next turn when it was shot at it could not choose to evade because it did not zoom.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The effect (evading) lasts until the end of the next turn.

And that's where you're getting the disagreement. Evading is not an effect of evading.

It's not the effect that lasts the turn. It's the status of the flyer as currently evading.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Look at it this way.
Evade has an effect untill the end of the next turn. That effect is jink and snap fire.

Sure... except that's not what the rule actually says.

Arggg darn iPad!

Really? Because that is the bold print part in both my books, as a sentence. The whole paragraph is set up as a conditional statement. I see your logic. But in the context of the paragraph, I think the point of how it is suposed to play is the bolded part.


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 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The effect (evading) lasts until the end of the next turn.

And that's where you're getting the disagreement. Evading is not an effect of evading.

It's not the effect that lasts the turn. It's the status of the flyer as currently evading.

Ok, sure, the status is evading. No where does it say the status=zoom.
That is the logic of Americans speak English. English speakers are American.
And we all know us Americans do not speak English



Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about we agree this needs a FAQ?
The hover strike rule does cause a conflict.
And if a FAQ ever comes out in my favor you change your I fought the RAW to RAI wins

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Really? Because that is the bold print part in both my books, as a sentence.

The point is that while the Flyer gains Jink and Snap Fire as a result of evading, Evading is a condition that lasts for a specific duration. The flyer has those extra rules while it is evading. And because only Flyers can evade, if it stops being a Flyer, it can't be still evading.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Really? Because that is the bold print part in both my books, as a sentence.

The point is that while the Flyer gains Jink and Snap Fire as a result of evading, Evading is a condition that lasts for a specific duration. The flyer has those extra rules while it is evading. And because only Flyers can evade, if it stops being a Flyer, it can't be still evading.

Do you agree that an evading flyer can go from zooming to hovering and still be evading?

I was planning to stay out of this one but, Insurgency brings up a valid point. This reads to me as an identical situation with passengers getting shaken (not stirred).

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Do you agree that an evading flyer can go from zooming to hovering and still be evading?

I thought I was being quite clear that I don't.

Evading lasts for a specific duration.
A hovering flyer is treated as a skimmer, not a flyer.
Only flyers can evade.
If the flyer is now a skimmer it therefore can not still be evading.
If it stops evading before the end of the set duration, it has broken the rule that says that evading lasts for that duration.

Therefore, an evading flyer can not choose to hover.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Do you agree that an evading flyer can go from zooming to hovering and still be evading?

I thought I was being quite clear that I don't.

Evading lasts for a specific duration.
A hovering flyer is treated as a skimmer, not a flyer.
Only flyers can evade.
If the flyer is now a skimmer it therefore can not still be evading.
If it stops evading before the end of the set duration, it has broken the rule that says that evading lasts for that duration.

Therefore, an evading flyer can not choose to hover.

Similar situation, using your logic insaniak. Please note I'm not taking a side here, I think both sides have merit, just my two cents.

Stunned/Shaken effects on passengers lasts for a specific duration.
A unit that disembarks are no longer passengers.
Only passengers are affected.
If the unit is now no longer passengers it therefore can not still be shaken/stunned.
If it stops being shaken/stunned before the end of the set duration, it has broken the rule that says that shaken/stunned lasts for that duration.

Therefore, an shaken/stunned unit can not choose to disembark.

And yes I am aware that GW said they are still affected if they disembark (as I argued for in the original thread).

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Do you agree that an evading flyer can go from zooming to hovering and still be evading?

I thought I was being quite clear that I don't.

Evading lasts for a specific duration.
A hovering flyer is treated as a skimmer, not a flyer.
Only flyers can evade.
If the flyer is now a skimmer it therefore can not still be evading.
If it stops evading before the end of the set duration, it has broken the rule that says that evading lasts for that duration.

Therefore, an evading flyer can not choose to hover.

I do no disagree with your argument as such.
It merely feels convoluted, even for GW, to assume that we come to this conclusion.

I know that I will have trouble convincing my gaming-group of this simply due to this "feel".

I personally hope for an FAQ in the near future (hey, one can hope, right ), and would feel just fine whatever that FAQ says.


...

Personally if you get rid of the whole "its no longer a flyer argument" the rule becomes pretty simple.

Happyjew wrote:Stunned/Shaken effects on passengers lasts for a specific duration.

Nope. The difference is in the wording of how the two rules are applied.

Evade lasts for a specific duration, and while evading the flyer has other effects applied. So the flyer has to be evading for those effects to apply.

Stunned and Shaken don't apply to passengers for a specific duration... they are instant effects: Passengers in a stunned vehicle can not shoot in their next shooting phase. For the effect to be the same as the evasion issue, the damage chart would need to say that while the vehicle is stunned passengers can not shoot.

Fragile wrote:Personally if you get rid of the whole "its no longer a flyer argument" the rule becomes pretty simple.

The FAQ ruling on hovering flyers using skyfire suggests that we can't do that...

Is there any rule like evade to use as a precident?

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Is there any rule like evade to use as a precident?

The closest I can come up with is Gone to Ground. A unit that chooses to GtG gets a cover save (like jink) and stays that way until the end of the next controlling player's turn. Unless a rule specifically tells us it breaks GtG (like failing a morale check, the unit breaks and is no longer afflicted by GtG), we cannot leave being GtG until the end of the next controlling player's turn.

The exact rules text is "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (40k 6th edition rulebook, page 81)

This does not preclude the Stormtalon from using its Hover Strike ability in its next turn, at which point it changes its type to Skimmer until the start of its next movement phase. (WD 389, page 66)

When the Stormtalon is a skimmer, it is no longer a Flyer, though it is still evading. Nothing about this status change makes the Stormtalon stop evading. However, the effects of evading do not apply to it, as the evade rule specifically indicates that only an evading Flyer gains Jink and fires Snap Shots.

Therefore, a Stormtalon (if in Zoom mode) can Evade when fired upon, then use Hover Strike on its own turn to become a skimmer. When a skimmer, it loses the Jink rule provided by Evading and is no longer forced to snap fire, as it is no longer an evading Flyer but rather an evading Skimmer, and the Evade rule has no effect on skimmers. This means that it may fire at normal BS, with the modifiers from Hover Strike applied if appropriate.

However, note that since a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike ability is no longer a Flyer, it cannot choose to use the Skyfire special rule in its shooting phase, nor may it choose to Evade if fired upon in the turn after it performed a Hover Strike. These options are only available to Flyers, and a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike ability becomes a Skimmer, not a Flyer.

Couldnt have said it better myself Kingsley, though I have said the exact same things multiple times in this thread.

Glad to have another person agree.