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So I keep hearing about these Necron units that are often referred to as "useless":

Tomb Spyders
Deathmarks
Flayed Ones

Obviously GW wants us to buy moar models so I do not fully believe that the current Necron Codex makes them "useless" in semi-competitive games. Thoughts?

deathmarks arent bad. they give the cryptek flamer a +2 on wounding .

FO suck and there is nothing one can do to fix them , good thing about it is that in 6th shoting is better then assaulting , so having one bad hth unit means nothing .

spyders were ok for farm builds in the 5th . Technicly they are still ok , but nothing can stay good for ever.

Deathmarks are great, maybe not the most competitive for the tournament scene or whatever (never been to one but looking at most competitive lists they don't seem to feature), but they are really fun to use - deep striking in and have rapid fire snipers, can't complain at that.

The bonuses of the 2+ on a marked unit, the addition of harbringers of despair for an ap2 template that wounds the marked target on 2+.. that's what makes them great. I haven't tried it yet but instead of deep striking or veiling them in putting them in a night scythe might be good with the new disembark rules and the scythes portal (iirc its like a 36" move then the with 6" of base disembark to get those templates in the right place)

People are going to shout at me for this, but I like Flayed ones. You can take a big group of 20 of those things and they cost the same as a warrior each. In close combat on the assault you are looking at 80 attacks for the first round at full strength. They are jsut different. I'm not saying they are a deathstar, but I think someone could make them work, you just have to try.

 Diesel Stradin wrote:
So I keep hearing about these Necron units that are often referred to as "useless":

Tomb Spyders

Never heard anyone say that Canoptek Spyders are a bad unit. 50pts for a 3 wound T6 monstrous creature which is also the only thing in the army with access to any form of psychic defence? Yes please.

Ork KFF works on friendly and enemy non vehicle units. Only 1 spyder needs to be within 6" of the kff to gain the cover save. The spyder farm has some pretty good synergy with green tide.

adam304 wrote:
The bonuses of the 2+ on a marked unit, the addition of harbringers of despair for an ap2 template that wounds the marked target on 2+.. that's what makes them great. I haven't tried it yet but instead of deep striking or veiling them in putting them in a night scythe might be good with the new disembark rules and the scythes portal (iirc its like a 36" move then the with 6" of base disembark to get those templates in the right place)

Technically if you moved 36" the unit could disembark and move 6" but could only snapfire, which means no AP1 2+ wounding templates... you have to stop the scythe at 24" and then disembark them 6", then you are allowed to shoot as normal. A subtle but important distinction. Point is... they are awesome when used this way.

Tomb Spyder? The Forgeworld thing? Never tried it.

I haven't tried FO yet either.

I think the majority opinion is that only the Flayed Ones are really useless.....I really don't know what they were thinking when they made that unit, particularly in a world where Wraiths exist. Fearless really would have fixed them pretty easy, too, without much complaint from anybody, I think.

Scarab farms seem slightly less good or just less needed, but a spyder is still 50 pt MC.....all sorts of uses for that.

Even without 2+ template silliness, I think Deathmarks are perfectly useful. I don't they're especially needed over basic troops, but they look cool and work fine, snipers that can walk and gun, DS, nothing wrong there.

 Diesel Stradin wrote:
Obviously GW wants us to buy moar models so I do not fully believe that the current Necron Codex makes them "useless" in semi-competitive games. Thoughts?

You assume that GW is actually good at writing rules, and is capable of making every unit useful in a competitive environment. This is a bad assumption.

 Diesel Stradin wrote:
So I keep hearing about these Necron units that are often referred to as "useless":

Tomb Spyders
Deathmarks
Flayed Ones

Flayed ones are terrible and have been for a while.

Those other 2 units are great, nothing wrong with them. There are much worse things in the newcron codex than Deathmarks.

All the people who never use Flayed Ones think that they are bad. Everyone I've talked to that has really taken the time to figure out their nuances and used them in an appropriate list have come away impressed with how wrong the preconceived notions on them are. They're a tarpit that can handle both infantry and most vehicles alike in 6th. They are also incredibly good against most varieties of Terms. And work swimmingly in DLord lists as they give the super beat stick a nice backup option when his Wraith or Triarch escort dies.Just a situation where people make bad assumptions based on there statline, ignore there overall capabilities, and allow preconceived notions to inform a confirmation bias in regard to any limited sampling pool.


As for the other two, I'm in agreement with Exergy not sure where you're getting your info. Deathmarks are an incredibly powerful antiinfantry/deathstar tool when combined with a Despair Tek and precision dropped from a Scythe. Tomb Spyders are a very point efficient jack of all trades that can provide fire support if wanted, fit extremely well in scarab farm lists, and also play nice in 2xMono and 2XDoomsday Arc lists, and have access to one of the better anti psyker tools in the game.

Gangrel767 wrote:

adam304 wrote:
The bonuses of the 2+ on a marked unit, the addition of harbringers of despair for an ap2 template that wounds the marked target on 2+.. that's what makes them great. I haven't tried it yet but instead of deep striking or veiling them in putting them in a night scythe might be good with the new disembark rules and the scythes portal (iirc its like a 36" move then the with 6" of base disembark to get those templates in the right place)

Technically if you moved 36" the unit could disembark and move 6" but could only snapfire, which means no AP1 2+ wounding templates... you have to stop the scythe at 24" and then disembark them 6", then you are allowed to shoot as normal. A subtle but important distinction. Point is... they are awesome when used this way.

Tomb Spyder? The Forgeworld thing? Never tried it.

I haven't tried FO yet either.

Sorry for the off topic question in advance. Can you tell me what pages in the BRB say that you can disembark troops after moving 24"? If thats true, that changes alot of things for me. Thank you.

And to contribute: I agree, deathmarks and spyders are the opposite of useless. Flayed Ones... They could be a nice distraction unit and maybe even a good unit to protect other units. Having 20 FO's surrounding 2 DoomArks sounds okay to me.

It's in the necron faq, portal of exile for the night scythe

ShadarLogoth wrote:
All the people who never use Flayed Ones think that they are bad. Everyone I've talked to that has really taken the time to figure out their nuances and used them in an appropriate list have come away impressed with how wrong the preconceived notions on them are. They're a tarpit that can handle both infantry and most vehicles alike in 6th. They are also incredibly good against most varieties of Terms.

Except that they're going to lose combat, and have a decent chance to run. Which means no WBB.

Oh dear, anyone else remember the "why flayed ones are good and you are not" thread that ShadarLogoth ranted his way through. Entertaining reading!

When 6th arrived I put my genestealers back on the shelf and I think that any marginal use FOs had has gone the same way.

S4/T4,4+ armour save, no grenades, no rending. Generally getting a 5+ cover save for 1-2 rounds of shooting before they can assault and then suffering overwatch.

I can't see how anyone thinks they do well against terminators. How? Any lightning claws rip right through them and then their lack of rending makes the 2+ armour save too good for them. Assault into cover and they go at the same time as the power fists/thunder hammers. Then if there's any alive they don't have fearless.

Vehicles? No rending and no grenades again. Dreadnaughts are certainly a no-no for them. Certain Leman Russes with rear armour 11, landraiders, flyers.

Saying they work in DLord lists is because DLords are good, not the FOs.

I see Deathmarks working now and the cost of a Tomb Spyder makes Nid players cry - half a carnifex for quarter of the cost!

Garukadon wrote:
Sorry for the off topic question in advance. Can you tell me what pages in the BRB say that you can disembark troops after moving 24"? If thats true, that changes alot of things for me. Thank you.

And to contribute: I agree, deathmarks and spyders are the opposite of useless. Flayed Ones... They could be a nice distraction unit and maybe even a good unit to protect other units. Having 20 FO's surrounding 2 DoomArks sounds okay to me.

adam304 wrote:
It's in the necron faq, portal of exile for the night scythe

Just in case you didn't see the reply. I was speaking specifically with regards to the night scythe (due to the FAQ update of the necron Codex), not all transports. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 ruminator wrote:

The cost of a Tomb Spyder makes Nid players cry - half a carnifex for quarter of the cost!

basically it makes anyone who takes MC cry. They are so cheap and yet so good.

I dunno, on their own (i.e., not boosting scarabs), they're not really that scary or useful. Yeah, they're a 50 pts MC, but they're only S/T 5, 2 attacks, no special movement.......meh? It doesn't suck, but your game isn't going to revolve around it. I've barely ever seen them in get into combat, and if they do, it probably means I was already in the Necrons lines, killing stuff.

Deathmarks are good with a Cryptek of Despair, else don't take them.

Spyders are good for their points cost, don't underestimate the prism either.

FO are utter crap.

What's a good number for deathmarks? One unit of 5? 8? 10? Or 2 units for more targets?

CrimsonKing wrote:
People are going to shout at me for this, but I like Flayed ones. You can take a big group of 20 of those things and they cost the same as a warrior each. In close combat on the assault you are looking at 80 attacks for the first round at full strength. They are jsut different. I'm not saying they are a deathstar, but I think someone could make them work, you just have to try.

That's all under the naive assumption that all 20 make it to combat. The whole reason they suck is because they have no shooting options and deep strike, and combo with WTF written all over it.

I love deathmarks. I find them great for picking off small enemy squads that are camping next to objectives or acting as fire support.

Flayed Ones aren't that great. If they were troops, then that would be different story.

Tomb Spyders are alright. They aren't meant to be an assault unit; they are meant to provide support.
They are intended to stay behind the rest of the necron army. They are for repairing vehicles, spewing scarabs and blocking the odd psi-power.

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned monoliths or C'tan. They also appear to be considered useless by most necron players.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
but they're only S/T 5

They are Str 6 and T 6

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I dunno, on their own (i.e., not boosting scarabs), they're not really that scary or useful. Yeah, they're a 50 pts MC, but they're only S/T 5, 2 attacks, no special movement.......meh? It doesn't suck, but your game isn't going to revolve around it. I've barely ever seen them in get into combat, and if they do, it probably means I was already in the Necrons lines, killing stuff.

compared to Nid MCs or DE pain engines they are stupidly good. They can be taken in 3s, have tons of wounds for the cost. Grotesques and Ogryns are 15 points cheaper, but lack the AP2 goodness, hammer of wrath, 3+ armor. Also they are lower toughness and strengh, meaning they are going to take twice as many wounds from Str4 before you get into armor.

Baronyu wrote:
What's a good number for deathmarks? One unit of 5? 8? 10? Or 2 units for more targets?

I find 5-6 to be adequate. The trick is to keep the squad small, so when you deepstrike them there will be less of a chance for a mishap.
It also keeps them cheap, so if they die (and they will most likely die) only 100 points is lost.

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
but they're only S/T 5

They are Str 6 and T 6

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I dunno, on their own (i.e., not boosting scarabs), they're not really that scary or useful. Yeah, they're a 50 pts MC, but they're only S/T 5, 2 attacks, no special movement.......meh? It doesn't suck, but your game isn't going to revolve around it. I've barely ever seen them in get into combat, and if they do, it probably means I was already in the Necrons lines, killing stuff.

compared to Nid MCs or DE pain engines they are stupidly good. They can be taken in 3s, have tons of wounds for the cost. Grotesques and Ogryns are 15 points cheaper, but lack the AP2 goodness, hammer of wrath, 3+ armor. Also they are lower toughness and strengh, meaning they are going to take twice as many wounds from Str4 before you get into armor.

And yet......you never seen them taken without scarabs.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
but they're only S/T 5

They are Str 6 and T 6

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I dunno, on their own (i.e., not boosting scarabs), they're not really that scary or useful. Yeah, they're a 50 pts MC, but they're only S/T 5, 2 attacks, no special movement.......meh? It doesn't suck, but your game isn't going to revolve around it. I've barely ever seen them in get into combat, and if they do, it probably means I was already in the Necrons lines, killing stuff.

compared to Nid MCs or DE pain engines they are stupidly good. They can be taken in 3s, have tons of wounds for the cost. Grotesques and Ogryns are 15 points cheaper, but lack the AP2 goodness, hammer of wrath, 3+ armor. Also they are lower toughness and strengh, meaning they are going to take twice as many wounds from Str4 before you get into armor.

And yet......you never seen them taken without scarabs.

Have you ever seen a necron army without scarabs? They are extremely popular right now.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
but they're only S/T 5

They are Str 6 and T 6

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I dunno, on their own (i.e., not boosting scarabs), they're not really that scary or useful. Yeah, they're a 50 pts MC, but they're only S/T 5, 2 attacks, no special movement.......meh? It doesn't suck, but your game isn't going to revolve around it. I've barely ever seen them in get into combat, and if they do, it probably means I was already in the Necrons lines, killing stuff.

compared to Nid MCs or DE pain engines they are stupidly good. They can be taken in 3s, have tons of wounds for the cost. Grotesques and Ogryns are 15 points cheaper, but lack the AP2 goodness, hammer of wrath, 3+ armor. Also they are lower toughness and strengh, meaning they are going to take twice as many wounds from Str4 before you get into armor.

And yet......you never seen them taken without scarabs.

scarabs are awesome, and it is not like you see DE pain engines in competitve play either.

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
but they're only S/T 5

They are Str 6 and T 6

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I dunno, on their own (i.e., not boosting scarabs), they're not really that scary or useful. Yeah, they're a 50 pts MC, but they're only S/T 5, 2 attacks, no special movement.......meh? It doesn't suck, but your game isn't going to revolve around it. I've barely ever seen them in get into combat, and if they do, it probably means I was already in the Necrons lines, killing stuff.

compared to Nid MCs or DE pain engines they are stupidly good. They can be taken in 3s, have tons of wounds for the cost. Grotesques and Ogryns are 15 points cheaper, but lack the AP2 goodness, hammer of wrath, 3+ armor. Also they are lower toughness and strengh, meaning they are going to take twice as many wounds from Str4 before you get into armor.

And yet......you never seen them taken without scarabs.

scarabs are awesome, and it is not like you see DE pain engines in competitve play either.

The only problem with Scarabs is that they fill the same slot as Wraiths. I'd say that the reason for never seeing a Spyder inclusive list without Scarabs is because for just a few extra points you can squeeze even more use out of them, making them even more points efficient despite the fact that they were excellent anyway.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
All the people who never use Flayed Ones think that they are bad. Everyone I've talked to that has really taken the time to figure out their nuances and used them in an appropriate list have come away impressed with how wrong the preconceived notions on them are. They're a tarpit that can handle both infantry and most vehicles alike in 6th. They are also incredibly good against most varieties of Terms. And work swimmingly in DLord lists as they give the super beat stick a nice backup option when his Wraith or Triarch escort dies.Just a situation where people make bad assumptions based on there statline, ignore there overall capabilities, and allow preconceived notions to inform a confirmation bias in regard to any limited sampling pool.

Flayed Ones are simply not good. They cannot win combats very easily because they have mediocre stats and hit second. Their toughness means little when they have to take morale checks and are easily swept, so they make poor tarpits. You are left with a foot-slogging infantry unit whose only useful function is assaulting specialized shooting infantry and vehicles. Warriors can perform both of those tasks better for the same cost with the bonus of being scoring.

Res orb D.Lord could help out the flayed ones quite a bit.

Unfortunately I agree with the majority of you here, they are a sad lot still. They should have been made troop choices (at least with taking a special character HQ or something like that), but no. Instead they take up an elites slot and no one wants to buy the new horrid models. I've been meaning to try out proxying a bunch of them but with a 4+ armor save and no way to get them across the board in a timely fashion (without eliminating their DS or Infil options), there's just far better choices to include. Some day I'll try out an almost all melee-cron list.