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Reading that financial times article about them, and just looking at their general business practices (unlisted youtube videos, little to no advertisement outside direct GW media/publications, avoiding interviews, and so on) it's clear that GW has a deliberate (or perhaps subconscious) policy of avoiding media. For a hobby/recreational business, this makes zero sense.

So this is the place to try and figure out why such a policy exists.

Oh its this thread again.

orkybenji wrote:
Oh its this thread again.

52 posts on Dakka and already jaded, congratulations!

The best I can come up with is they just don't get it. By it I mean PR. They clearly aren't concerned, they make enough money without a ton of PR and a ton of PR may result in them being unable to meet demand. Just spit balling here since no one can know for sure who is on the outside.

I second OverwatchCNC's point. Unless someone high up in GW writes a tell-all, we won't know.

It's arguably the biggest company in a niche hobby, which is populated by those who get regarded as "strange" by the majority of individuals not involved or familiar with wargaming/RPGs, etc.

Unless GW(or any other company for that matter) starts having hot cheerleaders handing out "Come see us at Games Workshop stores and local hobby shops!", I can't see it changing the way people think of the company or people involved.

Because they know better than a bunch of "experts" on hobbyist forums. GW is raking in money hand over fist selling plastic toys. Why should they want to change? And if they ever falter, no big deal, the investors will just cut their losses and flee to another market.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

orkybenji wrote:
Oh its this thread again.

52 posts on Dakka and already jaded, congratulations!

The best I can come up with is they just don't get it. By it I mean PR. They clearly aren't concerned, they make enough money without a ton of PR and a ton of PR may result in them being unable to meet demand. Just spit balling here since no one can know for sure who is on the outside.

It could also just very well be they're biding their time. They're making enough money now, and hold increased advertising like a back up system in case sales start to slip, though I hardly know anything about business.

Im just trying to play devil's advocate. I see people bashing on GW all the time. The other day I remember seeing someone compare them to an overfed sloth. They have major releases at least every other month, still maintain plenty of lore, rpg, and literary book releases, and have more minis in one gaming system than many other wargame companies have altogether. Not to mention how gorgeous their plastic kits are. Sure it's expensive, but every new release just gets better (for the most part).

People always say GW has no idea what they're doing from a business standpoint. Like I said, I know practically nothing about business, but I figure you don't become the the most successful wrgaming company in the world by doing everything wrong.

GW became the most sucessful table top gaming company by doing most things right.(1989 to 1997).
Then started getting things wrong.(Botched the handeling of the LoTR.)
Then forgot thier core buisness and demoghraphic.(Making games for gamers and selling them minatures for the games.)
When the chairman told eveyone 'GW is in the buisness of selling toy soldier to children'.

Since the foicus on selling toy soldiers to children in 2004.
GW plc have lost appx 50% of thier customer base.
And kept turn over prety level by doubling the prices , over the rate of inflation.

GW plc steers clear of advertising simply because it depends on isolated marketing.
As GW products dont compare well the the other companies products in the TTMG hobby.

Lanrak wrote:
Since the foicus on selling toy soldiers to children in 2004.
GW plc have lost appx 50% of thier customer base.

Umm. Two things:
1) Citation Needed
2) And you're saying they've lost 50% of their base in 8 years? Do you have any idea of what the turnover is for other companies in the industry? How many people still play D&D or other games that were playing them 8 years ago?

 pretre wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
Since the foicus on selling toy soldiers to children in 2004.
GW plc have lost appx 50% of thier customer base.

Umm. Two things:
1) Citation Needed
2) And you're saying they've lost 50% of their base in 8 years? Do you have any idea of what the turnover is for other companies in the industry? How many people still play D&D or other games that were playing them 8 years ago?

Five?

I think two things, which I hope aren't too controversial.

1) GW doesn't recognise any other companies in the market*. Therefore, not advertising new releases/not creating hype makes sense (kind of), in that otherwise you might potentially stop customers from splurging on current releases. The reality is however that many customers might spend the money on other wargaming options, simply unaware that they should have saved their money.

2) It's tied in some way to New Line, and the forthcoming Hobbit release (there was a hoo-haa last time about the pictures from one of the films being leaked early). But, a speaker at Games Day last year commented, when questioned about the lack of marketing, that they would see how it goes and if it isn't popular or successful they will revert to another model. Which makes me think that the contractual obligations might not have any relation to the forthcoming films.

I don't think it matters to be honest, and in the grand scheme of things it probably helps the sci-fi/fantasy wargaming industry move away from monopoly a little - GW is still the king of the pile, and the lack of marketing on their part gives a leg up to other smaller companies to perhaps grow a bit.

* In the words of Rick Priestly, ex Godfather of GW (official title)

GW is the best mini company, but I cant say the same about prices :( so why would they need to try harder, basically

Advertising costs money. Lots of it.

GW/wargaming is a niche product.

Why spend lots of money advertising something that is niche and only interests a finite number of people?

 Lorizael wrote:
Advertising costs money. Lots of it.

GW/wargaming is a niche product.

Why spend lots of money advertising something that is niche and only interests a finite number of people?

Basically this.

How many commercials do you see for Luis Vitton(sp?) or Prada? They are luxury items in a niche market. Word of mouth is their advertising. The people who want their product know damn well where to find it.

Now, that line of thought does go against the GW strategy of wanting new players to burn $500 on the "hobby" and then bail out when they grow tired of it. GW's target market is 14-16 year olds. Those people in general DON"T know where to find GW models, on account of them never having heard of them or wargaming in general. I was 15 when I started, and you know how I found out about all this model nonsense? I randomly happened upon a comic store, and in my boredom that day decided to walk inside and take a gander. I saw some wicked awesome Chaos Warriors and I was sold.

I don't see how that can be a viable marketing strategy. I would be very interested in the statistics of sales based on demographic. What % of GW sales are actually made by 14-16 year olds(or their parents) as opposed to the % of sales made by veterans like myself. Veterans know where to buy, and we know what we want(most of the time). So there is no need to market to us.

 Myrthan wrote:
GW is the best mini company, but I cant say the same about prices :( so why would they need to try harder, basically

In their little niche` and that is all.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Lorizael wrote:
Advertising costs money. Lots of it.

GW/wargaming is a niche product.

Why spend lots of money advertising something that is niche and only interests a finite number of people?

Basically this.

How many commercials do you see for Luis Vitton(sp?) or Prada? They are luxury items in a niche market. Word of mouth is their advertising. The people who want their product know damn well where to find it.

.

But it doesn't exist inside a void, a market where only they are present.

Case in point: Last month daemons were released. Had I had any kind of warning about it, I would have put some money aside for them. But, not knowing what was coming from GW, my money went on the new Infinity book and a kick starter. I can't be alone here, and I would say nearly all of the adult market probably budget their purchases in this way. In that case having absolutely no advance warning of stuff is seriously detrimental to the veteran collector. Although, I realise I am not the target demographic for the company.

And to make out that GW has the same kind of perceived value connected to its brand as those fashion items I also think is incorrect. I think most parents probably buy GW stuff because they are unaware of rival products - unlike those aforementioned fashion brands where most people buying them are fully aware there are products which fulfil the same function (i.e. carry stuff) for 1% of the cost. So, while those parents go into only GW stores then that company is safe in terms of holding on to them. But, the moment they walk into a FLGS, get chatting to the staff and then realise their kid can play with toy solders for 1/4 of the cost that GW is asking, then I think there will be very little to give them any sense of brand loyalty.

As the number of people using the internet increases (and there are very few parents these days who don't shop using it), then the chance increases that they will come across the rapidly growing market of non-GW games - the latters complete lack of advertising (not to mention poor relations with seemingly a good chunk of independent wargaming shops) again will put them in a bad stead in that regard.

Advertising costs money. Lots of it.

Not necessarily. GW, being the biggest player in the game, could spend only the smallest fraction of its profits (and indeed tax laws encourage spending in this manner, it wouldn't hurt them) and they would immediately dwarf what pretty much any other company could spend on advertising.

Get initiatives going getting more people into the stores, GW roadshows, school visits & connections, more links with other areas of the entertainment industry (both movies and more games), introduce new technology and interactive marketing, and that is just in 30 seconds of thought. A first year business student would absolutely rip them to shreds in terms of wasted opportunity. That they are still making profits is not a valid counter-argument to this; firstly, actual unit sales have been dropping year on year, and secondly again there would be an extremely strong business viewpoint that would say doing any of those things above would boost sales.

Like Aerethan pointed out. They got to keep that elitist "Were the best in the biz" feel going. Also pointed out their market is very finite. They'd like to keep that omnipresent overlord game comapany thing going....
Lotta good points here that im simply re-hashing.

 Pacific wrote:


But it doesn't exist inside a void, a market where only they are present.

Case in point: Last month daemons were released. Had I had any kind of warning about it, I would have put some money aside for them. But, not knowing what was coming from GW, my money went on the new Infinity book and a kick starter. I can't be alone here, and I would say nearly all of the adult market probably budget their purchases in this way. In that case having absolutely no advance warning of stuff is seriously detrimental to the veteran collector. Although, I realise I am not the target demographic for the company.

And to make out that GW has the same kind of perceived value connected to its brand as those fashion items I also think is incorrect. I think most parents probably buy GW stuff because they are unaware of rival products - unlike those aforementioned fashion brands where most people buying them are fully aware there are products which fulfil the same function (i.e. carry stuff) for 1% of the cost. So, while those parents go into only GW stores then that company is safe in terms of holding on to them. But, the moment they walk into a FLGS, get chatting to the staff and then realise their kid can play with toy solders for 1/4 of the cost that GW is asking, then I think there will be very little to give them any sense of brand loyalty.

As the number of people using the internet increases (and there are very few parents these days who don't shop using it), then the chance increases that they will come across the rapidly growing market of non-GW games - the latters complete lack of advertising (not to mention poor relations with seemingly a good chunk of independent wargaming shops) again will put them in a bad stead in that regard.

Advertising costs money. Lots of it.

Not necessarily. GW, being the biggest player in the game, could spend only the smallest fraction of its profits (and indeed tax laws encourage spending in this manner, it wouldn't hurt them) and they would immediately dwarf what pretty much any other company could spend on advertising.

Get initiatives going getting more people into the stores, GW roadshows, school visits & connections, more links with other areas of the entertainment industry (both movies and more games), introduce new technology and interactive marketing, and that is just in 30 seconds of thought. A first year business student would absolutely rip them to shreds in terms of wasted opportunity. That they are still making profits is not a valid counter-argument to this; firstly, actual unit sales have been dropping year on year, and secondly again there would be an extremely strong business viewpoint that would say doing any of those things above would boost sales.

GW behave as if they are convinced they exist in a void. They pretend like no other company can do what they do. Even when they do admit that other companies exist, they herald themselves as the best in the world, which is more or less the same reasoning used by Prada or Gucci. Sure there are other purses out there, but they promote theirs as the best. To GW, that makes them perceive their own product as much higher value than the competition.

Now I do agree that perhaps the newcomers to the market are unaware of the competition, which is unfortunate. GW stores make that even more so.

As for veterans not knowing about releases ahead of time, when was the last time a GW product was released that wasn't in the rumor pipeline months ahead of time? Daemons were rumored at least a good number of weeks before the official announcement.

Now yes, for veterans it would be in GW's interest to at least produce an estimated release schedule for the next 3 months, in that it gives us a chance to save up money for what we want. But GW just sees that as lost spontaneous sales from people who don't know what to buy so they just get the flavor of the month.


I don't agree with GW's marketing at all. I think it is completely stupid. But I can at least understand their tragically warped view of it. They don't understand their ACTUAL customer base. Instead they focus on their INTENDED customer base. It makes no sense at all.

Which again, perhaps they have the sales numbers to support their terrible marketing ideas. Maybe 14 year olds are spending way more money than we think. If that is the case, middle class parents are to blame! Quit giving your kids money to make them go away instead of actually spending time with them.

PR is overrated and expensive, especially in a niche market where its competitors dont spend big on advertising.

Interesting points, and the comparison with LV and Prada are appropriate, and although they might not produce television commercials with much or any frequency, they do produce print ads in every mens/womens fashion/lifestyle magazine.

I think this is where GW could branch out. The GW licensed video games are a great way to get their brand out there, however, I haven't seen any advertisements for WH40k/WH/LoTR in a game magazine or anywhere else. Print and digital are cheaper on average than broadcast advertising, and if GW were to target consumers that were already into a form of gaming. Also, with web comics, such as Control Alt Delete and Penny Arcade which appeal to gamers (and CAD has directly talked about Warmachine), digital advertising would be a great way to reach a more targeted audience.

I don't own any GW stock, but if I were on the board, I would definitely push for more marketing.

How many of us have been cornered by a red-shirt touting the latest offering from GW as the current "you need to have this for your army" even when you don't play that particular army?

GW sales model and marketing go hand in hand, and that's all they care to focus on right now, they have a working formula, why change it? If they were headed for bankruptcy, they would change their business model, but at present they are growing year on year...

How many of us have retorted "I don't need the latest white dwarf or a daemon prince, because I only play guard (insert suitable army choices here) only to be told by a red shirt "there's nothing stopping you collecting more than one army at a time"... We've all been there... And they know the horrendous costs involved in building an army, but if you spread out your cash over a choice of armies, and aren't close to finishing any of them, you'll stay in the hobby longer, spending more money of different paints and models for a bunch of forces you are yet to finish... Simple really.. Why have one working car to drive to work when you can have 10 works-in-progress that all require you to spend a bunch of cash to keep in good working order just to get you to work and back?

 Lorizael wrote:
Advertising costs money. Lots of it.
...
Why spend lots of money advertising something that is niche and only interests a finite number of people?

Go to Table Top Gaming News. Look at the banner ads either side of the main blog. You don't think GW could do that? Wizards, Fantasy Flight, Privateer Press, and many others do this. What makes GW so special?


I think it comes down to the fact that in order to do ads and compete they would have to admit that they are not the only fish in the pond.

GW showed up to Gen-Con this year. It was a baby step, but a step in the right direction. They need to take more steps though.

There's a difference between avoiding media and not advertising. I can't speculate on reasons for the first, but the second is pretty easy.

They're the big dog in miniatures. They don't need to advertise. We do it for them. Look at the name and focus of this site and so, so many others. Look at the avatars and names on this forum. They also see the various videogames (and their promotions) as free advertising for the hobby product.

It's markedly different to D&D, but then TSR was eaten by Wizards and is now part of the Hasbro empire, which is why I was able to pick up a D&D boardgame from a mainstream games shop that sells Monopoly and such last week. D&D isn't a RPG brand anymore - the RPG is just part of a product line that extends to Heroscape sold in toy shops to Ravenloft being sold alongside Hungry Hungry Hippos.

Very different to GW. I wonder what might happen if Hasbro decides to eat them one day?

 scipio.au wrote:
There's a difference between avoiding media and not advertising. I can't speculate on reasons for the first, but the second is pretty easy.

They're the big dog in miniatures. They don't need to advertise. We do it for them. Look at the name and focus of this site and so, so many others. Look at the avatars and names on this forum. They also see the various videogames (and their promotions) as free advertising for the hobby product.

It's markedly different to D&D, but then TSR was eaten by Wizards and is now part of the Hasbro empire, which is why I was able to pick up a D&D boardgame from a mainstream games shop that sells Monopoly and such last week. D&D isn't a RPG brand anymore - the RPG is just part of a product line that extends to Heroscape sold in toy shops to Ravenloft being sold alongside Hungry Hungry Hippos.

Very different to GW. I wonder what might happen if Hasbro decides to eat them one day?

Which is interesting, because back in 2000ish GW was in talks with Wal Mart about distribution. GW's demands were laughable though, and Wal Mart passed. The terms were more or less:
GW product to have it's own isle. No other products allowed, with 2 end caps.
GW product had to be sold at MSRP, not Wal Mart's usual pricing.

GW wouldn't budge on the terms(which are steep), which is unfortunate because they are the ones who lost out from the deal. Not having GW is no skin off Wal Marts back, but the exposure and sales volume would have been epic for GW. So that gives a little insight into how they view themselves: Premium luxury items that are too superior for Wal Mart to sell at anything other than top dollar.

Now that I think about it, I'm sure Wal Mart could just buy GW outright and sell at whatever the hell margin they wanted with insane distribution. BRB, I have a few calls to make.

 Aerethan wrote:
How many commercials do you see for Luis Vitton(sp?) or Prada? They are luxury items in a niche market. Word of mouth is their advertising. The people who want their product know damn well where to find it.

Flip through your girlfriend's copy of Vogue (your eyes will bleed a little, but it's in the name of science); you'll find that Louis Vuitton and Prada (along with actually classy luxury brands like Hermès and Smythson) do indeed advertise. Now wargaming hasn't had for many years a stable independent magazine published; maybe Ravage will change this if it establishes a stable subscription base.

As it is, GW, as the publisher of the only newsstand wargaming magazine (crap though it is), not only feel no great obligation to communicate with their playerbase in any other way, but are indeed motivated not to do so, in order to preserve WD's apparent value. Who would waste £4.50 on what is essentially a thinly-disguised compilation of advertising flyers if said "content" were all available for free elsewhere? This doesn't of course, from our perspective, change the fact that compared with Privateer, Mantic and Wyrd, who are able to engage us weekly with press releases, blogs and through their own forums, GW look remote and unengaged.

 Aerethan wrote:
I don't see how that can be a viable marketing strategy. I would be very interested in the statistics of sales based on demographic. What % of GW sales are actually made by 14-16 year olds(or their parents) as opposed to the % of sales made by veterans like myself. Veterans know where to buy, and we know what we want(most of the time). So there is no need to market to us.

Percentage-wise, probably not much, but when GW's profitability sits in the 5-10% margin, decisions (shoddy miniatures, unbalanced rules, juvenile prose) which send even a single per cent of their customer base elsewhere will have a discernible negative impact of their profits. They would be wise to throw a bone to the grognards more often.

 scipio.au wrote:
It's markedly different to D&D, but then TSR was eaten by Wizards and is now part of the Hasbro empire, which is why I was able to pick up a D&D boardgame from a mainstream games shop that sells Monopoly and such last week. D&D isn't a RPG brand anymore - the RPG is just part of a product line that extends to Heroscape sold in toy shops to Ravenloft being sold alongside Hungry Hungry Hippos.

Very different to GW. I wonder what might happen if Hasbro decides to eat them one day?

TSR were on the verge of bankruptcy when WotC snapped them up; their only asset of value was the D&D brand, not the stock, not even the actual IP content. Hasbro were able to make an offer to Peter Adkinson, as owner of WotC, of $325 million back in 1998, during a long economic boom during which large corporations went crazy for mergers and acquisitions. Given that GW's present market capitalisation is approximately $337 million in an economic climate much less friendly to pricey acquisitions, it's unlikely right now. It's particularly so when you consider that their share price has been kept artificially high with overgenerous dividends while their unit sales have been falling year-on-year for six years. I'm sure Hasbro could find the cash, but I very much doubt they'd be happy in these circumstances to gamble on twenty years of sustained profitability at GW for their investment to realise any profit.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Because they know better than a bunch of "experts" on hobbyist forums. GW is raking in money hand over fist selling plastic toys. Why should they want to change? And if they ever falter, no big deal, the investors will just cut their losses and flee to another market.

I don't have it handy, but presume this post begins with the Joker "not sure if serious" image.

Have people really become so brainwashed by Marketist dogma that they can express sentiments like the above without even a hint of realisation?

Here is my take on it:

1) Wargaming in general is not a very well known hobby. GW, on the other hand, has quite a large presence - I was on their website when a friend came up to me and said he saw a shop sporting that logo right outside where he stayed for the summer. Therefore they don't really need that much PR. And anyway, how many 12 year old hobbyists have really heard of other wargaming companies? We won't buy the Chinese airgun at $5 but we'd buy the Nerf airgun at $55 because the Nerf company is more well known and therefore we assume that their product is better even if they're identical.

2) I must admit that GW's models are very nice. Their games are also very fun to play and they can keep you engrossed for hours. They are a joy to paint. They have developed such a unique universe for their two main games that can't be beaten by most companies. Hell, I don't think I've seen such a well developed sci-fi world as the Warhammer 40k galaxy. In comparison I don't think that Privateer Press make as nice models, their games are a bit too - well - flimsy (but they're still fun) and the Iron Kingdoms aren't as interesting as the Old World.

3) A lot of people are attracted to high prices. We all want a Ferrari and we want to wear designer apparel even if the Honda sports car is similar or the Thai fake sunglasses are just as nice. Similarly if GW were to sell models at, say, $5 for a Tactical Squad the product will lose its prestige factor.

And this increases sales, making GW think that it's ok to have crappy PR and little to no advertising.

I don't understand what you mean by flemsy. I was under the impression warma/hordes was pretty rock solid and balanced.

Why is Games Workshop anti-publicity?
They want no witnesses for their management methods?

 Lorizael wrote:
Advertising costs money. Lots of it.
GW/wargaming is a niche product.
Why spend lots of money advertising something that is niche and only interests a finite number of people?

Because in the past it worked? See the mass of new customers brought to the hobby by MB's advertising for Heroquest and Spacequest/SpaceHulk and NewLineCinema/DeAgostini advertising for movie and LOTR magazine (complete with GW sprues). See the mass of customers and sales lost when noone does advertising for GW.

It's crystal clear. GW doesn't like money!

Come on man, really?