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I can't count how many people I've met in this hobby that started solely because of HeroQuest, or Talisman.

Instead GW releases Space Hulk as a $100 limited print run that wasn't ever sold in any store for more than like a week before they all sold out.

I'd like to know how much money went into model and molding design for that game versus how many units they made. Normally GW use the same model designs and molds for decades before deciding to pay for new ones.

Not to mention unless they were already interested in Space Hulk, they probably wouldn't have even known it existed. Especially with that narrow time frame it was out.

When the Hobbit comes out, will they do the Battle Games of Middle Earth again? That was as mainstream as they ever went. Though that was when they were making stuff in metal and could churn out figures reliably in bulk. There's nothing mainstream about Finecast, fragile figures suspended in a messy web of flash and sprue likely with miscasts.

But Space Hulk proved that GW could indeed make high detail one piece models on a whopping 2 molds for the entire game, and in it's insanely small print run, I assume they made money on it. Why on earth would they not print more? I thought GW was in the practice of making money, not creating super limited edition items that sell for loads on ebay that GW never sees a penny of. The game itself was worth $100 to GW. People bought up every single one of them. Smart business says make more until people stop buying them.

Even if they did a single print a year of them I'm sure they'd sell. Let alone if GW pumped them into Wal Mart and Target at as low a price as possible. The exposure for GW would be MASSIVE. Throw in that pamphlet and perhaps a basic brush and 5 color paint set and you'd have all manner of people getting into the wargames hobby. But what do I know, I'm just a guy who would buy it and then convince all of his friends to buy it as a cheap gateway into my hobby. EVERYONE WOULD WIN!!!

So what the crap GW? Y U NO LIKE MONEY?

Davylove21 wrote:You could call that an MB ad but I'm not going to believe that GW didn't OK it. Even for 1991, they didn't do a great job.

Guess these posts answer it:

Scott-S6 wrote:When they released Hero Quest and Space Crusade (published by MB games and carried in all the mainstream toy/game stores) we were seeing national TV adverts with the Games Workshop logo and there was a GW brochure in the box.
They found a lot of new players over that period which would otherwise never have heard of them.
I'm surprised they never thought to repeat that.

Aerethan wrote:I can't count how many people I've met in this hobby that started solely because of HeroQuest, or Talisman.

So it worked. Actually, most TV spots aimed at children are not subtle works of art, but do their job anyway.
Why does GW not repeat this? because they never did, they wait for someone else to invest millions in advertising GW products ... under severe restrctions of course.

Aerethan wrote:But Space Hulk proved that GW could indeed make high detail one piece models on a whopping 2 molds for the entire game, and in it's insanely small print run, I assume they made money on it. Why on earth would they not print more? I thought GW was in the practice of making money, not creating super limited edition items that sell for loads on ebay that GW never sees a penny of. The game itself was worth $100 to GW. People bought up every single one of them. Smart business says make more until people stop buying them.

Actually, Space Hulk is the perfect example that GW is NOT interested in maximising sales. They could have easily doubled the number of customers by selling Space Hulk unlimited and in general toy stores including Toys'R'Us. They could have mass distributed the perfect introduction game for 40k, but they rather flooded Tom Kirby and the other shareholders with millions of pounds. Same reason why they don't invest in ads, because they rather want the money for themselves.

Allegedly GW had some kind of dispute with MB over the rights to the games which is why GW moved away from mainsteam boardgames. I don't know how true this is but its something that I have heard quite often.

Space Crusade was my first exposure to wargaming when I was in primary school, I am highly unlikely to have started wargaming until I went to university if I hadn't spotted that boardgame in an Argos catalogue.

Space hulk was limited run because of the card content that was supplied by a third party company. To keep continuous production they would have to keep bulk ordering the card components. This would be risky as you might have to buy a thousand units to satisfy three sales. It also narrowed the margin considerably. This is why dread fleet had a cloth mat, vastly cheaper than the card content for space hulk was.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Space hulk was limited run because of the card content that was supplied by a third party company. To keep continuous production they would have to keep bulk ordering the card components. This would be risky as you might have to buy a thousand units to satisfy three sales. It also narrowed the margin considerably. This is why dread fleet had a cloth mat, vastly cheaper than the card content for space hulk was.

I guarantee that the cost to develop and mold the models far outweighed any printing costs. And either way, the initial sales run should have been enough incentive to facilitate at least another bulk print run. Hence, even if they only did a single run a year it would be profitable.

Printed card stock can't have been the nail in the coffin of that game. The game retailed for $100. There's no way that some huge portion of that went into card stock. I know of plenty of small run games that have just as good card stock mats and plastic injected models that retail for less than $100 and they sell just fine without a huge playerbase of preexisting customers.

And another point, if such things were a concern, they could just as well make a kickstarter for it to gauge interest and cover setup costs like so many other models companies are doing now.

Reaper wanted to change over to plastics. To see if people were interested in such a change, the made the decision public, and then people gave them 3.5 million dollars to do it. Assuming $10k per injection mold set in which they could fit a solid 10 figures easily, that covers 350 individual mold sets, for a theoretical 3500 models to be covered.

GW could just as easily do this to replace finecast, or to revive specialist games. Instead, they rely on the age old business practice of head in the sand and not changing a damn thing unless they find a way to do it poorly.


If I owned a large portion of GW stock, I'd be pissed as hell at the myriad ways in which they don't make money. They are notoriously bad at being profitable.

Palindrome wrote:
Allegedly GW had some kind of dispute with MB over the rights to the games which is why GW moved away from mainsteam boardgames. I don't know how true this is but its something that I have heard quite often.

Space Crusade was my first exposure to wargaming when I was in primary school, I am highly unlikely to have started wargaming until I went to university if I hadn't spotted that boardgame in an Argos catalogue.

By Argos catalogue I assume you're referring to the Laminated Book of Dreams.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Davylove21 wrote:You could call that an MB ad but I'm not going to believe that GW didn't OK it. Even for 1991, they didn't do a great job.

Guess these posts answer it:

Scott-S6 wrote:When they released Hero Quest and Space Crusade (published by MB games and carried in all the mainstream toy/game stores) we were seeing national TV adverts with the Games Workshop logo and there was a GW brochure in the box.
They found a lot of new players over that period which would otherwise never have heard of them.
I'm surprised they never thought to repeat that.

Aerethan wrote:I can't count how many people I've met in this hobby that started solely because of HeroQuest, or Talisman.

So it worked. Actually, most TV spots aimed at children are not subtle works of art, but do their job anyway.
Why does GW not repeat this? because they never did, they wait for someone else to invest millions in advertising GW products ... under severe restrctions of course.

Aerethan wrote:But Space Hulk proved that GW could indeed make high detail one piece models on a whopping 2 molds for the entire game, and in it's insanely small print run, I assume they made money on it. Why on earth would they not print more? I thought GW was in the practice of making money, not creating super limited edition items that sell for loads on ebay that GW never sees a penny of. The game itself was worth $100 to GW. People bought up every single one of them. Smart business says make more until people stop buying them.

Actually, Space Hulk is the perfect example that GW is NOT interested in maximising sales. They could have easily doubled the number of customers by selling Space Hulk unlimited and in general toy stores including Toys'R'Us. They could have mass distributed the perfect introduction game for 40k, but they rather flooded Tom Kirby and the other shareholders with millions of pounds. Same reason why they don't invest in ads, because they rather want the money for themselves.

Which of course is a juvenile concept. More ads and distribution means more money, which means more money for you down the line.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Lorizael wrote:
Advertising costs money. Lots of it.

GW/wargaming is a niche product.

Why spend lots of money advertising something that is niche and only interests a finite number of people?

Basically this.

How many commercials do you see for Luis Vitton(sp?) or Prada? They are luxury items in a niche market. Word of mouth is their advertising. The people who want their product know damn well where to find it.

Now, that line of thought does go against the GW strategy of wanting new players to burn $500 on the "hobby" and then bail out when they grow tired of it. GW's target market is 14-16 year olds. Those people in general DON"T know where to find GW models, on account of them never having heard of them or wargaming in general. I was 15 when I started, and you know how I found out about all this model nonsense? I randomly happened upon a comic store, and in my boredom that day decided to walk inside and take a gander. I saw some wicked awesome Chaos Warriors and I was sold.

I don't see how that can be a viable marketing strategy. I would be very interested in the statistics of sales based on demographic. What % of GW sales are actually made by 14-16 year olds(or their parents) as opposed to the % of sales made by veterans like myself. Veterans know where to buy, and we know what we want(most of the time). So there is no need to market to us.

Blah EVERTHING sells to a FINITE # of people.

Now mind you DUNGEONS & DRAGONS put adds on the web, adds in magazines, and YES they even had a (1) TV spot actually. That's not huge advertising, but they have their channels and basically say "HEY Get together with some friends and roll some dice!"

Yes many people are veterans, but ultimately they DO want new people into the hobby. Now ONE DIFFERENCE between D&D and anything GW makes is the power of the name. Even if you never played, I know maaaany "mundanes" (boring, non-gamer, average joe types) who have HEARD of D&D. The name alone is powerful.

That aside, also considering that video/computer games and the Warhammer Roleplay are a form of advertising and product at once. One gets the videogamers the other gets roleplayers (OH and there are NOVELS TOO MIND YA [both graphic and plain print] and I have found people that liked them without initially being into 40K at the time). Basically this stuff has potential (maybe) to get people interested in the main product through tie in, while being sellable itself.

ALSO: let me say that their age bracket is probably wrong, in which case I agree with you. I see wargaming as (mainly) a 24-35 hobby with some 18-24 in there too. Most of the people I know were "older" and beardier than I was when I started. The KEY is OLDER people have faaaar bigger disposable incomes to afford all these expensive plastic bits.

Sorrowdusk wrote:ALSO: let me say that their age bracket is probably wrong, in which case I agree with you. I see wargaming as (mainly) a 24-35 hobby with some 18-24 in there too. Most of the people I know were "older" and beardier than I was when I started. The KEY is OLDER people have faaaar bigger disposable incomes to afford all these expensive plastic bits.

Wish I could dig up the article as I'm just recalling this from the top of my head but there was some research done that shows that men in their 20's who have geeky pursuits (and often geeky, high paying jobs) have a huge amount of disposable income but many business never see any of it because they never think to adjust their marketing to target them.

 Aerethan wrote:
Why on earth would they not print more? I thought GW was in the practice of making money, not creating super limited edition items that sell for loads on ebay that GW never sees a penny of. The game itself was worth $100 to GW. People bought up every single one of them. Smart business says make more until people stop buying them.

I believe the answer to why no more copies were printed was because GW destroyed the moulds straight after the initial run was done. Before they realised the demand was higher than expected, hence Dreadfleet's larger run and shelf warming. Undoubtedly the Dark Vengeance Chaplain's mould is also destroyed, just like they destroy the mould for the exclusive subscription miniature every year. They do it so that once the run is done, its done. Its exclusive and "one of a kind" so to speak.

Also printing a 'cheaper' or 'newer' version damages them. Those that bought the limited run lose their exclusiveness and get annoyed at paying such a high price for it, those that buy a newer version get annoyed at not getting the same quality as the limited run did (With the Terminator and Genestealer moulds gone, it would be ASOBR Termies and Battle for Macragge Genestealers). Either way, its bad press and they'd rather avoid it so they just remain at the single limited run, once its gone, its gone. In a few years with another anniversary maybe they'll print a new run up, with new minis.

SkyD wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Why on earth would they not print more? I thought GW was in the practice of making money, not creating super limited edition items that sell for loads on ebay that GW never sees a penny of. The game itself was worth $100 to GW. People bought up every single one of them. Smart business says make more until people stop buying them.

I believe the answer to why no more copies were printed was because GW destroyed the moulds straight after the initial run was done. Before they realised the demand was higher than expected, hence Dreadfleet's larger run and shelf warming. Undoubtedly the Dark Vengeance Chaplain's mould is also destroyed, just like they destroy the mould for the exclusive subscription miniature every year. They do it so that once the run is done, its done. Its exclusive and "one of a kind" so to speak.

Also printing a 'cheaper' or 'newer' version damages them. Those that bought the limited run lose their exclusiveness and get annoyed at paying such a high price for it, those that buy a newer version get annoyed at not getting the same quality as the limited run did (With the Terminator and Genestealer moulds gone, it would be ASOBR Termies and Battle for Macragge Genestealers). Either way, its bad press and they'd rather avoid it so they just remain at the single limited run, once its gone, its gone. In a few years with another anniversary maybe they'll print a new run up, with new minis.

WD models are made in rubber molds which don't cost all that much to make. So destroying those isn't a big loss. An injection molding die set runs well over $10k. GW would be insane to destroy ANY perfectly functional injection molds. That is just dumb, whether it's true or not.

Also, $100 isn't really an "exclusivity" price bracket when it comes to specialty games. Plenty of high end board games go for $80+. So making more and selling them for the same price in no way devalues what people bought. Now if GW released the same set for $50, sure. But those same people had first access and so on. I'm sure more people would want a second print run than there are people who would feel cheated in some abstract way.

I maintain that the cost to produce that game had to have been considerable, and the number of units produced was quite low. Iirc it was sold out within a few hours of preorders being up.

That said, there is hope for GW yet. There is rumor of Blood in the Badlands being run a second time due to sales and demand. So perhaps if that goes well the trend will carry over into other areas for GW.

 Aerethan wrote:

Reaper wanted to change over to plastics. To see if people were interested in such a change, the made the decision public, and then people gave them 3.5 million dollars to do it. Assuming $10k per injection mold set in which they could fit a solid 10 figures easily, that covers 350 individual mold sets, for a theoretical 3500 models to be covered.

GW could just as easily do this to replace finecast, or to revive specialist games. Instead, they rely on the age old business practice of head in the sand and not changing a damn thing unless they find a way to do it poorly.

Although I'm not sure how well a kickstarter would go down considering GW is a publically owned company? They make millions in profits, but it gets given out in shareholder dividends rather than being re-invested into things that obviously need attention, or that the company could benefit from (Finecast/new game lines/interactive technologies etc. - you could make a list as long as your arm).

The problem isn't money - it's to do with investment. If you view yourself as being a king in a market of one, with no competition, then what incentive is there to do anything better? And especially as those companies get larger and run by directors whose only interest is in the bottom line. Any companies which have existed in an almost monopoly (Microsoft for instance) get fat and lazy, and GW is no different in that regard.

The really interesting stuff will come when they perhaps realise they have some competition, or profits start to drop to the point and they are unable to disguise the figures and the board demands some rejuvination of the business process. Hopefully then we will see GW return to something like the company of old, with imagination and a new directive in their games making. At the moment, it's just re-treading the same old ground, feeding gamers the same stuff they have been playing for 20+ years and for anyone who is a veteran player of their games (speaking personally) it has become remarkably stale.

 Aerethan wrote:

WD models are made in rubber molds which don't cost all that much to make. So destroying those isn't a big loss. An injection molding die set runs well over $10k. GW would be insane to destroy ANY perfectly functional injection molds. That is just dumb, whether it's true or not.

I read an article somewhere about the moulds for Lego blocks. When a run of specific lego blocks is completed (say, they needed a special block for some space line they don't produce anymore) the mould is first disfigured, then crushed, then the remains mixed into the concrete foundation for any new buildings at the Lego HQ, in order to stop OOP moulds going 'missing'.

I almost want to say they won't reprint Space Hulk because of Zone Mortalis, but I know that's stupid. I literally can't think of any other reason why, though.

Zone Mortalis is a similar game and they sell 3D tiles for it that are, of course, ludicrously expensive. I can imagine someone complaining about not being able to get Space Hulk and being directed by GW staff to order $600+ worth of Zone Mortalis tiles and playing that instead.

They have the latest market share, so why bother.

Trasvi wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

WD models are made in rubber molds which don't cost all that much to make. So destroying those isn't a big loss. An injection molding die set runs well over $10k. GW would be insane to destroy ANY perfectly functional injection molds. That is just dumb, whether it's true or not.

I read an article somewhere about the moulds for Lego blocks. When a run of specific lego blocks is completed (say, they needed a special block for some space line they don't produce anymore) the mould is first disfigured, then crushed, then the remains mixed into the concrete foundation for any new buildings at the Lego HQ, in order to stop OOP moulds going 'missing'.

Buuuuuuuuuut.........cant you make NEW molds from the actual parts???

Aerethan wrote:But Space Hulk proved that GW could indeed make high detail one piece models on a whopping 2 molds for the entire game, and in it's insanely small print run, I assume they made money on it. Why on earth would they not print more? I thought GW was in the practice of making money, not creating super limited edition items that sell for loads on ebay that GW never sees a penny of. The game itself was worth $100 to GW. People bought up every single one of them. Smart business says make more until people stop buying them.

Even if they did a single print a year of them I'm sure they'd sell. Let alone if GW pumped them into Wal Mart and Target at as low a price as possible. The exposure for GW would be MASSIVE. Throw in that pamphlet and perhaps a basic brush and 5 color paint set and you'd have all manner of people getting into the wargames hobby. But what do I know, I'm just a guy who would buy it and then convince all of his friends to buy it as a cheap gateway into my hobby. EVERYONE WOULD WIN!!!

So what the crap GW? Y U NO LIKE MONEY?

The line I've heard repeated by GW staff is that were they to promote and sell Space Hulk (and Blood Bowl), they would essentially be promoting cheaper (and better) competitors to their own products. Which makes a measure of sense, in GW's crazy way.

n0t_u wrote:Not to mention unless they were already interested in Space Hulk, they probably wouldn't have even known it existed. Especially with that narrow time frame it was out.

If the discussion at the time of its release on BGG was anything by which to go, Space Hulk sold quite well among board games who had no particular interest in wargames, or who hadn't for many years.

SkyD wrote:I believe the answer to why no more copies were printed was because GW destroyed the moulds straight after the initial run was done. Before they realised the demand was higher than expected, hence Dreadfleet's larger run and shelf warming.

I've heard this claim made, but does it have any official substantiation? Even if it's true, new moulds could presumably be struck from the master sculpts.

Dreadfleet sold poorly for two main reasons: 1) it lacked Space Hulk's existing recognition and player base, and 2) it was crap.

yea i found tabletop thanks to DW1-2, but i always heard tales from my dad about it. Were i am it is word of mouth for GW products so when i got the chance to see dark eldar even their old models i was sold.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
When they released Hero Quest and Space Crusade (published by MB games and carried in all the mainstream toy/game stores) we were seeing national TV adverts with the Games Workshop logo and there was a GW brochure in the box.

They found a lot of new players over that period which would otherwise never have heard of them.

I was one of them. I can still remember it.

"I'll use my Broadsword!"
"Fire of Wrath!"

Magnamaniac wrote:
They have the latest market share, so why bother.

I presume you mean largest?

Complacent companies are bad companies and bad companies fail. In a post internet world companies simply cannot rest on their laurels and pretend that they are the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
[
By Argos catalogue I assume you're referring to the Laminated Book of Dreams.

Actually no, it was a paper mail order one. I proably didn't go into an Argos shop for another 20 years

Palindrome wrote:

Magnamaniac wrote:
They have the latest market share, so why bother.

I presume you mean largest?

Complacent companies are bad companies and bad companies fail. In a post internet world companies simply cannot rest on their laurels and pretend that they are the best.

Indeed. And as I already pointed out, TSR were still the world's largest RPG publisher in the year in which they went bankrupt.

Dawn of War (1 & 2)- Advertising since 2004 that makes GW money, instead of them having to pay it out. A new expansion per year (except 2007) when DoW 2 came out in 2009 - also with its own content expansions. And Space Marine - Same as DoW since 2011.

Both advertisings that were smartly played. Because they're video games they are definitely targeting the 16-24 year old demographic. The game companies themselves are taking the financial risks for failure while GW can assume the stance that even poor publicity is still publicity. If the game sells well GW sees a return for having done nothing more than letting Jervis(or some other GW guy) sit down with some rabid fans for artistic direction. Everyone who plays gets exposed to the grim dark, everyone who likes grimdark finds out they can go to their FLGS and buy up. Whether you actually go into a FLGS and buy GW still gets its tithe (for advertising) It's so win win for them. And yes there was Fire Warrior in the 90's.

And there's White Dwarf. If for some reason your a gamer and you don't know about 40k you'll at some point ask about or open up a copy of that WD on the shelf and get directed to the 40k section or your FLGS/ City/ Interwebs /etc. We may heckle the WD for being a catalog, but it's advertising too.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Lorizael wrote:
Advertising costs money. Lots of it.

GW/wargaming is a niche product.

Why spend lots of money advertising something that is niche and only interests a finite number of people?

Basically this.

How many commercials do you see for Luis Vitton(sp?) or Prada? They are luxury items in a niche market. Word of mouth is their advertising. The people who want their product know damn well where to find it.

Past the examples I pointed out I agree with this post and backing whole heartedly. If you're a wargamer, you've got to be living under a rock not to have heard of GW products. If a game company is going to go the regular route and advertise in the open market to attract new people who have literally never heard of your product I suspect it costs a metric gak-ton. And honestly I don't see any other companies advertising their wares in open media. The last $600 I spent on gaming has been on Reaper Bones KS (no advertising), X-Wing (FFG game - no advertising), Relic Knights KS (CMON and Soda Pop - no advertising), and Dark Vengeance (no advertising)....all companies who don't advertise (unless you count Facebook/Twitter), who's product I found out about via word of mouth because I knew where to find it.

There's not really an all emcompassing Our Type Gamer magazine out there in print to buy at your local Wal-Mart like there are for PC Gaming and console gaming, so no advertising there. I guess they could do is put up some web links, but as to why they wouldn't put up those nickels I couldn't tell ya.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Zone Mortalis is a similar game and they sell 3D tiles for it that are, of course, ludicrously expensive. I can imagine someone complaining about not being able to get Space Hulk and being directed by GW staff to order $600+ worth of Zone Mortalis tiles and playing that instead.

You'd go bankrupt just buying all the doors you need to play Space-Hulk, let alone the damned tiles. Doors should be like fries in a Happy Meal, and included with each Mortalis tile, not sold separately.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
And there's White Dwarf. If for some reason your a gamer and you don't know about 40k you'll at some point ask about or open up a copy of that WD on the shelf and get directed to the 40k section or your FLGS/ City/ Interwebs /etc. We may heckle the WD for being a catalog, but it's advertising too.

Makes sense ... in a world where people actually PAY for seeing commercials

 Kroothawk wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
And there's White Dwarf. If for some reason your a gamer and you don't know about 40k you'll at some point ask about or open up a copy of that WD on the shelf and get directed to the 40k section or your FLGS/ City/ Interwebs /etc. We may heckle the WD for being a catalog, but it's advertising too.

Makes sense ... in a world where people actually PAY for seeing commercials

Doesn't cost me a cent to pick it up off the rack, peruse it for a minute and ask the counter guy what're all these little things. Saw it happen last time I was at my FLGS. I will cut you some slack and admit it doesn't happen often though (some brand new gamer getting into GW). 40K people who aren't forum monkeys using the WD to see what's coming out this month....that happens all the time.

I agree with the Dawn of War thing. The first time I had encountered a "Space Marine" was when a gift shop had set up a computer with vanilla Dawn of War running. I wasn't aware that the game was based on a board game and I don't think I would've cared. But later, when I was older, I played it again at a friend's house and learnt about Warhammer. I went off and did LotR, but I know at least 2 other people who got into 40k thanks to DoW.

Yea dark crusade and soulstorm was a Friday thing for my group we played from 6-2am then we got grant checks and got into 40k then warmachine then fantasy then 40k agian and it has been a blast