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Philosophical question: How does one achieve properly done NMM if by your logic, most attempts you see are failures at the technique?

Just wanted to chime in and express my love for this log.

Great work in this thread so far, and you both found some extremely awesome inspiration pics.

You've also inspired me to finally take the plunge on Infinity, and Aleph in particular.

Question for anyone, since I don't have my rules yet:
Can I use the Guija that I purchased ages ago with my Aleph force somehow?

~Eric

Taarnak wrote:Just wanted to chime in and express my love for this log.
Great work in this thread so far, and you both found some extremely awesome inspiration pics.
You've also inspired me to finally take the plunge on Infinity, and Aleph in particular.
Question for anyone, since I don't have my rules yet:
Can I use the Guija that I purchased ages ago with my Aleph force somehow?

Thanks, good to hear you'll be joining this ever-growing community.
You know you can download the rules for free, right? I bought the books for the fluff of course, but you really don't have to in order to play the game.
Regarding the Guijia, while you can include one or two Aleph models into an Yujing army, there is no legal way to include a Guijia into the other afaik.
But you could go ahead and make an awesome conversion of it and design your own "greek" TAG to go with the myrmidons, which you could then play as a Maruts, I don't think anybody could dislike that.

dsteingass wrote:Philosophical question: How does one achieve properly done NMM if by your logic, most attempts you see are failures at the technique?

I have a problem with NMM in general. It's a cool technique no doubt, but I personally think it looks out of place more often than not. On Infinity miniatures I actually like it, because it supports the general graphic style of the game. On 40k miniatures there is very little room for it.
The problem is, that the most convincing NMM must find a balance between having the strong contrast that metal surfaces have and at the same time not looking to shiny for the actual object.
An example:

Yellow One is a god with the brush and his technique is flawless as far as I'm considered, but his NMM on the gatling almost has the contrast of a chrome surface, that's stupid.
On the other hand, if you go for longer gradients it can easily look like a dull grey surface and not like metal at all.

If one finds the balance between those two things and chooses the right miniature/object to use the technique, then I'd call it properly achieved.

 Baiyuan wrote:

Taarnak wrote:Just wanted to chime in and express my love for this log.
Great work in this thread so far, and you both found some extremely awesome inspiration pics.
You've also inspired me to finally take the plunge on Infinity, and Aleph in particular.
Question for anyone, since I don't have my rules yet:
Can I use the Guija that I purchased ages ago with my Aleph force somehow?

Thanks, good to hear you'll be joining this ever-growing community.
You know you can download the rules for free, right? I bought the books for the fluff of course, but you really don't have to in order to play the game.
Regarding the Guijia, while you can include one or two Aleph models into an Yujing army, there is no legal way to include a Guijia into the other afaik.
But you could go ahead and make an awesome conversion of it and design your own "greek" TAG to go with the myrmidons, which you could then play as a Maruts, I don't think anybody could dislike that.

I had forgotten that you can download the rules. Thanks for the reminder. I really want to get the full books for the fluff though.

Thanks for the idea. I'll have to start looking for a cool Greek name for the Not-Guija now.

 Baiyuan wrote:

dsteingass wrote:Philosophical question: How does one achieve properly done NMM if by your logic, most attempts you see are failures at the technique?

I have a problem with NMM in general. It's a cool technique no doubt, but I personally think it looks out of place more often than not. On Infinity miniatures I actually like it, because it supports the general graphic style of the game. On 40k miniatures there is very little room for it.
The problem is, that the most convincing NMM must find a balance between having the strong contrast that metal surfaces have and at the same time not looking to shiny for the actual object.
An example:

Spoiler:

Yellow One is a god with the brush and his technique is flawless as far as I'm considered, but his NMM on the gatling almost has the contrast of a chrome surface, that's stupid.
On the other hand, if you go for longer gradients it can easily look like a dull grey surface and not like metal at all.

If one finds the balance between those two things and chooses the right miniature/object to use the technique, then I'd call it properly achieved.

Spoiler:

Not that anyone asked, but in my opinion, NMM almost never "reads" correctly at the scales were are normally working in. At the larger stuff (say, 75mm+) it can be pulled off, but in my opinion still only looks right from one angle.

~Eric

That's easy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kataphraktos

So, while a "neat" novelty technique, that can be done, it really isn't relevant to the average gamer/hobbyist?

The reason I ask is that I agree, it can look cool, I just don't have a desire to try it, since exponentially more can be done with metallics with less effort, and in less time.

 Baiyuan wrote:
That's easy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kataphraktos

Good call. Thanks!

~E

So, while a "neat" novelty technique, that can be done, it really isn't relevant to the average gamer/hobbyist?

That's how I see it, it's a bit of a show-off technique because you are effectively painting a trompe l'oeil and it's very impressive technically, but it often just doesn't look convincing. Baiyuan's example is good but the gold still looks quite matte to me, even with strong contrast painted on (like on his skirt bit). The only time I have seen NMM and loved it is the Sanguinor because it achieves what looks like a really deep, rich polished gold that you would really struggle to get with metallic paint.



I just found this well explained article about it: http://www.mainlymedieval.com/ozpainters/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=878

Yeah, but that fig is worth the effort, orks or guard players...meh..you'll just be scooping up piles of em no matter the paintjob

Had the worst tummy bug last few days, even just looking at a mini has made me feel like I was gonna puke but even with that awful illness I managed to pass those tests I was worried about! So only one left, pressure is off a little for now, will get back to Devabot soon....

@Baiyuan - No WIPs B as he's not converted in anyway. I don't like posting PIPs this close to finish.

@ Brut - Yeah I guess...Well I'm not sure if you'd say paint scheme "based on Borderlands 2 graphics" or "looks like Borderlands 2 graphics" we'll have to see at the end. I've tryied to add some of that 'cell shaded lining' in a few natural places on him but not as much as you'd see in game I guess. I'd probably say "based on..." at this stage.

R

 Ghostflame wrote:
even with that awful illness I managed to pass those tests I was worried about! So only one left, pressure is off a little for now, will get back to Devabot soon....

Good for you mate! Congratulations! Can't wait to see the Devabot.

@Baiyuan - No WIPs B as he's not converted in anyway. I don't like posting PIPs this close to finish.

That's ok, I understand. I don't like PIPs either, I generally think my miniatures look like crap while painting (sometimes even after that ), because I never finish one part of a miniature and then move on to the next. I usually put down all the base colors and then hop back and forth between different zones as I see fit.

No progress on my part, it's been a bit busy and for recreative purposes I chose Borderlands over painting. Mechromancer rooooocks!
Tomorrow I'll supervise exams for four hours (i.e. I'll read the Iliad or my Infinity books for four hours), hopefully after that I'll be in the right mood for painting.

heh..I wouldn't be able to concentrate on my exam if I were in your class...I'd be distracted by your books

Hehe, if you were taking a C level exam in German I guess you'd have other things to worry about than your teachers rulebook!

In other news, the first DLC for B2 is sooo cool. First of all it got pirates and you can't go wrong with that. And second it has hovercraft sandskiffs as vehicles. Now I want to build one for my ashwaste nomads... (it goes on the to do list).

Been a really good boy!
Instead of reading the rulebooks again I took care of my translations and instead of playing games I spent the last two nights painting.
I've removed the blue/green attempt at osl on the wings of the netrod and decided not to apply any osl on that rather big area.
I've basecoated all of the colors.
Finished the highlights on the grey parts.

I am still pondering about color choices, but the grey and orange are final at least in theory. I'm extremely pleased with both sets of colors.
The blue for the osl is going to work I think, but I can't tell before the rest is done.
Now I just need to figure out what direction I want to go with the white. I do have a concept, but I'll need to test it once the dark colors are done.

Something just occurred to me about NMM..metal surfaces in Video game graphics are all done in NMM by necessity! (gradient textures being the closest thing you can get to light reflective paint when working in pixels)



thoughts?

Video game graphics are all done in NMM by necessity

Anything that doesn't literally contain metal is NMM. Computer games simulate the reflective qualities of metal by using bump and reflection maps (and probably some other tricks, I am out of date) in addition to textures.

Of course they do and it's possible to create/paint an absolutely lifelike image of actual metal in NMM, but it's a complicated matter and the real problem for me is how it translates to painting miniatures.

There are artists who can paint metal perfectly (I remember an airbrush-god who painted an chrome airsteamer caravan, that I didn't recognize as a painting even after straight looking at it for a minute) and in the end it's just a question of how well you can reconstruct a lightsituation, while taking into account the reflective properties of the chosen material.

I can't do it, but I know people who can and one of them (who's a professional artist for graphic novels) keeps on claiming, that he could teach a monkey how to do it, as it's just simple logic. He's exaggerating I think, but especially painting SENMM is actually just figuring out how the lighting goes.

The problem with miniatures is, that, unlike a painting, they are threedimensional and have to look good from different angles. Which certain incredible looking effects simply cannot do. I've seen ice/glass armor being perfectly painted on a miniature, but you could only look at it from one angle, or the effect would be gone.




These are really cool and they look quite realistic, despite just being painted in blue and brown. But again it's the question how often you'll paint polished chrome and how it looks from another angle.

For more common metal surfaces being painted in NMM it's the same, it's just a matter of achieving the right level of reflection.
If an artist does that right it looks realistic enough to be convincing, but I'd still prefer RMM. It's hard to explain, but some things shouldn't be transported 1:1 from reality to a model.

Take this as an example:

Taking into account the strength of the lightsource and the nature of the metal, this image is well-done and absolutely realistic. Now picture this being painted onto a miniature, it would only work from one angle and a lot of it would actually be painted in plain white.

Same here (his right arm):

Could be a stunning effect on a miniature if done right, but it would still look awkward, don't you think?

Most people try to achieve an effect like this one, when they paint NMM on a miniature:

Very realistic, but fething hard to paint, as you have to be spot on with the reflection and texture of the material, because if you make the slightest mistake you end up with miniature, that's just smothered in different shades of blue/grey.

 Baiyuan wrote:
and in the end it's just a question of how well you can reconstruct a light situation, while taking into account the reflective properties of the chosen material.

I absolutely agree, but I would add "And lighting properties" to the end of what you said. I think lighting and direction of lighting has a lot more to do with it than the metal. I struggle for light intensity and direction with colors, wouldn't it be safe to say, that the direction of lighting and other lighting properties (intensity, color, etc) are the important part is the lighting? The only difference between using colors, or shades of grey, is the lighting?

You're right of course, the wife was nagging so I had to hurry up and left it out for being obvious. The light is just as important as the material, but not more important than it. That's just my point, some people do the light perfectly but pay not enough respect to the material.

I surmise then that OSL is fundamental to properly-done NMM.

Do you really mean OSL, or do you mean zenithal lighting?

Zenithal lighting is basically a must, when you do proper NMM. Because if your lighting has no clear direction, it's impossible to reason where light and shadow would go.

For OSL it depends, as it's a completely different effect, especially if you include things like glaring or rim light. The difference is that in OSL you try to represent (part of) the cause of the lighting. In NMM you try to represent it's effect on a certain (metallic) surface.

But then again both are just a way to represent a realistic (complex) lighting situation.
So it's not neccessary, but if there is a light source strong and directional enough, that it would logically contribute to the complexity of the scenes lighting, wouldn't it be awkward to ignore it, especially if you've gone through the pain of painting the rest as realistically as possible.

Now that might sound like NMM is a neccessity for realistic lighting, but it's not. Some people tend to forget, that painting RMM should be done exactly the same way as NMM. So that the painter steers the light by limiting it with shadows, implying shine by adding much brighter tones etc.
The metal particles are supposed to aid the effect, not create it.

It's the combination of all these effects, that makes the most interesting scenes. I chose some scenes from comics as examples, as they have a ridiculous amount of contrast and often feature multiple colorful light sources that make it easy to discern the components of the lighting situation. This can of course be done in a more realistic manner.





And finally something real, a photography that shows how much a chrome object actually depends on its surroundings and how fictitious it looks if the environment isn't right. Now picture this on a miniature, it wouldn't be very plausible:

I'm still alive, just in case anyone wondered.
The last few days have been a bit busy, but I managed to spent a few hours painting anyway.
After figuring out the (hopefully final iteration of the) paint scheme I went back to finish my Naga first, before I continue painting the netrods.
He's not done yet, but mostly and I'm making progress.

I also took the time to finally add supports to the corners of the frame for my modular table, so that it can actually be used now.
Once I figured out what material I want to use to protect the XPS, work on the table can proceed. I currently think a mixture of black and white gesso with something mixed in for texture. Definitely not sand, I'll need to find something finer.

Also did some research on what airbrush I'll be getting for christmas. It'll be an Iwata Eclipse HP-CS.

oooh, that's a nice ab! Just make sure you can get needles and nozzles locally, or order several for backup. The smaller the needle, the easier it is to bend it.

I currently think a mixture of black and white gesso with something mixed in for texture. Definitely not sand, I'll need to find something finer.

Finer than sand? Tricky. Maybe very fine grain sandpaper sealed quite heavily to reduce the grit (and make it safer to game on). I've tried this before and it works pretty well.

This is a great plog. It occurs to me that it would be really useful to have a plog roll in the Infinity sub-forum. The plogs on here move off the front page so fast that it's easy to miss them.

R.

Bruticus wrote:Finer than sand? Tricky. Maybe very fine grain sandpaper sealed quite heavily to reduce the grit (and make it safer to game on). I've tried this before and it works pretty well.

I'm afraid sandpaper is not an option, as I need to cover complex shapes including walls and stuff. What I want is something that creates the look of concrete, so plaster would be ideal, but it needs to be flexible. I'll make some experiments with gesso.

precinctomega wrote:This is a great plog. It occurs to me that it would be really useful to have a plog roll in the Infinity sub-forum. The plogs on here move off the front page so fast that it's easy to miss them. R.

Thanks, mate. That kind of a thread already exists, but it seems you just found out yourself.

dsteingass wrote:oooh, that's a nice ab! Just make sure you can get needles and nozzles locally, or order several for backup. The smaller the needle, the easier it is to bend it.

Yeah, I'll have to find a good supplier in town anyway, just in case I need some other stuff.
The needles of the two budget airbrushs I have from back in the days are both bent, but Iwata supplies are easy to get. Even if I can't find a store in Hamburg (there was one that had it all, but it turned out they went out of business last year), there are so many online shops that have them.
The real problem will be setting up a proper workplace for the airbrushing. My painting table doesn't have any space left and even though there is a spare table next to it, I'll have to figure out where to put all the crap I usually dump on it. I also think I'll have to build myself a spray booth, because the only place to set up the AB is in my library/study/home office/man cave and I wouldn't want all my gak to be covered in paint.
Also my compressor is a DIY one built by a friend. It's alright, but quite large and I will have to see if it's too noisy to use at night.

If you are only using acrylics, a fan and a backstop is really all you need. I just put it up for AB, and take it down for brushwork.

Hhhm, maybe you're right, but I think building a small cabinet wouldn't hurt. I really don't want to have to set it all up every time I want to work on a project.

Talking about projects:
I finally took a minute to do some planning on one of the major ideas for our gaming table.
I've been planning to scratch-build a prototype of a futuristic shipping container, that can be used for Infinity and Necromunda alike.
Once done I'll make a mould of it and then make as many copies as my table can handle.

But first things first, I more or less know what specifics I want it to have, but now I need to incorporate these into a design, that suits both games.
They have to be stackable, the doors must open, there must be ladders built into the side panels.

But what else? What would be another cool feature? Any ideas would be appreciated.

Here's a cookie in advance for your help:

I've been planning to scratch-build a prototype of a futuristic shipping container, that can be used for Infinity and Necromunda alike.
Once done I'll make a mould of it and then make as many copies as my table can handle.

Great idea, I've spent a long time trying to find a way to make/buy these that was both affordable and easy. I am pretty sure there must be some plastic train ones somewhere, but I've not found them, or at least, I am unsure of the scale. Lasercut mdf also seems like a good alternative to resin and there are some quite nice ones around on eBay and the like, but not at a price that would allow buying in bulk.

For details, I personally wouldn't be fussed about them all being openable, it might get a bit odd with dozens of dead end rooms around the place - perhaps some blown open walls would help if they are hollow.

Have you seen the new HDF stackable shipping containers coming very soon from Warmill?

R.