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I can't answer SM as pilots- perhaps their Sphess Marhine skills transfer there as well (the IoM is always happy to accommodate building a fighter scaled to their needs), but I haven't read too many books with them actually piloting spacecraft either so I don't really know. The chapters also have massive battle barges, staffed with countless serfs and normal crewmen who are simply honored to be in the presence of the SM's.

As far as tanks and heavy weapon *teams* are concerned - at a "real" level as real as this universe gets, having suppression and heavy armor in the hands of the best is far more understandable than having people with little in common in you and far less training than themselves. It's a bit like an extreme version of the USMC borrowing out two incredibly valuable resources to the new recruits of the National Guard -or even conscripts. When so much is at stake, it makes little sense for the Astartes to risk so much, just to put ten percent more boots on the ground when they are even more capable in their other combat roles.

Well if I'm going to be dropped into a combat zone i definitely want the best pilot/driver available.

I would also have to disagree that SM in a Heavy Weapons squad is a waste, being able to lay down suppressing fire with a heavy bolter or take out a tank from range with a lascannon is invaluable when its so mobile in a marines hands.

A reason as to why they don't take guard along to take supportive roles as your saying is just for efficiency sake, there is just no way that the IG are going to be able to keep up with the SM while they are in their role of shock trooper and pushing forward. Also communications, i would much rather have direct coms with my own support units and whom each and everyone i know.

It does completely break (albeit it was already broken by Command units and special characters), the 1000 Man CODEX Chapter decree.

I think this actually means 1000 Combat Line Troops, with a like a further 600 Marines to drive and man Weapons on Rhinos, Predators, Whirlwinds, Landraiders, Razorbacks, Storm-Talons, Thunderhawks, StormEagles etc etc. If you take that every Vehicle you buy has a Marine with a Techmarine Pauldron on, then the Techmarine Cadre must be 100+, maybe they are junior Techmarines, but then you get Chronus and others who complicate matters a bit. The 10th Company as I envision it can be anywhere from like 30+ to 200+ depending on recruitment numbers of Scouts at various stages of recruitment.

The Gunner on a Storm Raven is a Servitor, so why is it hard to believe that Marines would not hard wire Servitors into others of their vehicles, they don't want marines manning those positions, same with the Thunderhawk Gunship. It's a bit of a broken element that everyone just rolls with.

 Amaya wrote:
Well, I used to think that Imperial Guard organization was slowed, but then I realized that GW is British and are more familiar with the regimental system then the continental one so its only natural that they would order the Guard into Regiments.

I've got to say IG Regiments are like the same as a Brigade or Light Division. Look at the Tanith 1st and Only they were like what 3000 -5000 and that was written by a Brit. Most British Regiments in the late Victorian Era were made of Multiple Battalions 2-7. In the modern Era, we have reduced to Battalion size Regiments with maybe a Reservist battalion attached.

Soviet Regiments were different again, look at USMC Regiments for a different organisation again. You can even have Regiments of Corps, such as the Regiment of Artillery in the Indian Army.

The term Regiment is very different depending on Doctrine, historical factors and also differing military traditions.

I guess in a way amaya or whatever is right. Us marines are by no way superior, however i guarantee you most grunts i know can take you 1 v 1. Now youre probly gonna tell me youve done xyz martial arts and your bench is 400. I dont care. Its irrelevant, were crazy bastards

Yeah Keyboard Warriors that post on Dakka? Joking..I know what you are saying it's a Mental ability when you know you can own someone, it really does translate regardless of size, build or speed it's the self belief to fearlessly approach and dispatch an enemy. Fairbairn Sykes wrote a book on this called "Get Tough" written during WWII and its pretty much still taught in the Royal Marines and I'm pretty sure it was taught by OSS and subsequently to the US Marines at Quantico. It's all about mental attitude, and mental toughness.

http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/fairbairn-01.shtml

ON TOPIC - 40k cannot really be given a Real life frame of reference, it just fails, The Emperors Palace is basically the entire continent of Asia and his Chambers are the Himalayas . I cannot even envisage this.

mwnciboo wrote:It does completely break (albeit it was already broken by Command units and special characters), the 1000 Man CODEX Chapter decree.
I think this actually means 1000 Combat Line Troops, with a like a further 600 Marines to drive and man Weapons on Rhinos, Predators, Whirlwinds, Landraiders, Razorbacks, Storm-Talons, Thunderhawks, StormEagles etc etc.

Actually, GW themselves wrote long ago that the 1k limit does not include the HQ:

"A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the Company organisation. These individuals are known as the Headquarters staff and may be assigned to fight with a Company in battle. Included amongst them are psychic Librarians from the Chapter's Librarius and Techmarines together with their servitors."

Furthermore, many Space Marines actually have a double role in that they may be employed as infantry or as vehicle drivers:

"The Assault squads of a Battle Company may be employed as Bike squadrons or Land Speeder crews."

And this is how, all added up, you can actually get to the 1k Codex number just fine. These particular quotes are from the Index Astartes I, by the way, in case anyone wants to read up on the article itself. It's a rather interesting piece of fluff with much detail about Codex restrictions or how closely they are adhered to (or not).

mwnciboo wrote:The Gunner on a Storm Raven is a Servitor, so why is it hard to believe that Marines would not hard wire Servitors into others of their vehicles, they don't want marines manning those positions, same with the Thunderhawk Gunship. It's a bit of a broken element that everyone just rolls with.

Everyone rolls with it because that is what the codices tell us. When the book says something like "crew: 3 Space Marines" for a Land Raider, why should anyone not run with it?

Something else that just occurred to me, though, is the extreme value that the various Imperial Adepta put into these vehicles. Contrary to common belief, Rhinos or Land Raiders aren't just "cars" for the Astartes, they are treasured relics that are kept in service for many centuries, and costly battles are fought just to recover their smoking hulls from the battlefield in the hopes of restoring their body and machine spirit to new glory. Thus, a Chapter would obviously not trust anyone but their own Brother-Marines with command over such esteemed vehicles.

mwnciboo wrote:The term Regiment is very different depending on Doctrine, historical factors and also differing military traditions.

The same holds true for the IG as well, though. There are regiments a few thousand or even just a few hundred strong, and then you have stuff like the Valhallans who take to the field with a single regiment of line infantry having a 100k troops. 5.000 seems to be the average, but the extreme ends of the scale can add or take entire decimals to/from that number.

mwnciboo wrote:
The Gunner on a Storm Raven is a Servitor, so why is it hard to believe that Marines would not hard wire Servitors into others of their vehicles, they don't want marines manning those positions, same with the Thunderhawk Gunship. It's a bit of a broken element that everyone just rolls with.

Servitors are only useful for tasks involving no higher thought, a Servitor gunner would be programmed to fire at enemy targets (either by visually matching a database or reacting to incoming fire) they would not be able to pilot a ship or drive a tank due to the constant thought process involved.

They could however make good gunners on Predators and Sponsons etc. So really you just need one Marine to Drive a Razorback Or Predator? Or are we going down the line of lots of Marines used to do menial tasks?

I do take your point, that servitors have limits.

 mwnciboo wrote:
They could however make good gunners on Predators and Sponsons etc. So really you just need one Marine to Drive a Razorback Or Predator? Or are we going down the line of lots of Marines used to do menial tasks?

I do take your point, that servitors have limits.

The problem with that is where in a tank full of ammunition and weaponry are you gonna fit all the servitors needed to do each task. Also being a tank driver/gunner is not a menial tank.

Take it from a grunt on the ground, any pilot or operator that has previous direct fire experience is a welcome asset to the support infrastructure.

Makes perfect sense to me that power armored guys would pilot stormravens and the like.

What if they got shot down? They'll be a ground asset.

Double benefit. "You want a lasgun? Sure, take mine! You may not have a control stick but you're still a space marine with blah blah"

Space Marines are able to do things that basic humans can't, they do all the roles they do, because they need the best pilots, drivers etc

 BluntmanDC wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
They could however make good gunners on Predators and Sponsons etc. So really you just need one Marine to Drive a Razorback Or Predator? Or are we going down the line of lots of Marines used to do menial tasks?

I do take your point, that servitors have limits.

The problem with that is where in a tank full of ammunition and weaponry are you gonna fit all the servitors needed to do each task. Also being a tank driver/gunner is not a menial tank.

Being a Turret Gunner of Razorback is a menial task, for an Astartes. A man who has been genetically engineered to fight, close combat and ranged, equipped with super reflexes and extra organs becoming a pseudo-automated turret. You want that guy actually in the fight. Think about it as economy of effort, having an Astartes as a Sponson Gunner on a Tank is a complete waste, the sheer amount of resources needed to train and equip him, just to stick him at a vision slit with a HW and say "Shoot at anything NOT FRIENDLY". That said, I'm countering my own argument about Realism and 40k that I wrote above. I just love the inconsistencies, servitors are there to do menial and simple tasks, yet they'll take a Fully qualified Astartes to man a Turret except if it is a Stormraven or THunderhawk Turret where a servitor is used? Also Titan's have gun Servitors and seem to do pretty well.

Titans are near sentient and have a neural linked Princeps to help along.

Some novels point out that most of the driving/piloting is done by Chapter serfs (either indentured servants, or failed aspirants) and Servitors. I guess it varies based on Chapter and author.

But yes, this can be incredibly stupid, like the Grey Knights tasking their own to drive Rhinos. Really? You have a one in a billion type of individual... the genetic potential to survive the transformation into a Space Marine, a powerful psyker who isn't insane or possessed, and the strength of will to pass the trials and resist corruption.... and you have him driving a transport?

Omegus wrote:But yes, this can be incredibly stupid, like the Grey Knights tasking their own to drive Rhinos. Really? You have a one in a billion type of individual... the genetic potential to survive the transformation into a Space Marine, a powerful psyker who isn't insane or possessed, and the strength of will to pass the trials and resist corruption.... and you have him driving a transport?

Well, it makes sense when you consider how much the Astartes value these vehicles.

Also, would you really trust someone who may actually get possessed by a daemon accompany you into battle against them, with a bigass tank whose cannons can quickly swivel around to blast your ceramite armour to bits?

 Lynata wrote:

Omegus wrote:But yes, this can be incredibly stupid, like the Grey Knights tasking their own to drive Rhinos. Really? You have a one in a billion type of individual... the genetic potential to survive the transformation into a Space Marine, a powerful psyker who isn't insane or possessed, and the strength of will to pass the trials and resist corruption.... and you have him driving a transport?

Well, it makes sense when you consider how much the Astartes value these vehicles.

Also, would you really trust someone who may actually get possessed by a daemon accompany you into battle against them, with a bigass tank whose cannons can quickly swivel around to blast your ceramite armour to bits?

Where it falls apart for me is that daemon hunters with near-flawless teleportation technology who fight ephemeral beings that pop in and out of existence need tanks in the first place.

 Omegus wrote:
Some novels point out that most of the driving/piloting is done by Chapter serfs (either indentured servants, or failed aspirants) and Servitors. I guess it varies based on Chapter and author.

But yes, this can be incredibly stupid, like the Grey Knights tasking their own to drive Rhinos. Really? You have a one in a billion type of individual... the genetic potential to survive the transformation into a Space Marine, a powerful psyker who isn't insane or possessed, and the strength of will to pass the trials and resist corruption.... and you have him driving a transport?

Considering what a GK Rhino/thunderHawk/etc might be driving in to, hell yes. I do not want my driver suddenly going all khorne lover on me half way in to a fight.

its not like the Marines have a junior techmarine in every rhino. In most fluff its clear that a Squad drives its own ride. So they get to a location and leave the Rhino behind.

Junior Techmarines will drive Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Land Raiders, and all the Chapters aircraft.


The rules on the tabletop arn't perfect representations of the fluff. Its just a sacrifice the game makes so it functions.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Look at the Tanith 1st and Only they were like what 3000 -5000 and that was written by a Brit.

Dan Abnett is American.

Marines are vulnerable in transit. Why wouldn't you invest in an Astartes crew for a Thunderhawk carrying ~40 marines? Wouldn't you want a guy with increased visual acuity, reaction time, strength and tolerance to G force driving that investment aournd? Seems the pilot's the most important guy on that ship to me.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Look at the Tanith 1st and Only they were like what 3000 -5000 and that was written by a Brit.

The Tanith 1st is a Scout regiment. They are going to have less men then a full on Line Infantry regiment, though not as few as an Armored Regiment.

For a scout regiment, they spent an awful lot of time in trenches, assault roles and static defensive positions

 mwnciboo wrote:

 BluntmanDC wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
They could however make good gunners on Predators and Sponsons etc. So really you just need one Marine to Drive a Razorback Or Predator? Or are we going down the line of lots of Marines used to do menial tasks?

I do take your point, that servitors have limits.

The problem with that is where in a tank full of ammunition and weaponry are you gonna fit all the servitors needed to do each task. Also being a tank driver/gunner is not a menial tank.

Being a Turret Gunner of Razorback is a menial task, for an Astartes. A man who has been genetically engineered to fight, close combat and ranged, equipped with super reflexes and extra organs becoming a pseudo-automated turret. You want that guy actually in the fight. Think about it as economy of effort, having an Astartes as a Sponson Gunner on a Tank is a complete waste, the sheer amount of resources needed to train and equip him, just to stick him at a vision slit with a HW and say "Shoot at anything NOT FRIENDLY". That said, I'm countering my own argument about Realism and 40k that I wrote above. I just love the inconsistencies, servitors are there to do menial and simple tasks, yet they'll take a Fully qualified Astartes to man a Turret except if it is a Stormraven or THunderhawk Turret where a servitor is used? Also Titan's have gun Servitors and seem to do pretty well.

A marine can control all the turret/sponsor weapons of the tank with the vid link sights, due to his improvements. That means instead of having a tank full of servitors you can have a tank with extra ammunition. Also a Titan does most of the work itself (with guidance from the crew).

Omegus wrote:Where it falls apart for me is that daemon hunters with near-flawless teleportation technology who fight ephemeral beings that pop in and out of existence need tanks in the first place.

Tanks are still a friggin' huge weapons platform, and Rhinos are a good means to have your troops advance slowly with added protection, rather than risking immediate annihilation by teleporting into a crisis zone. At least that'd be my explanation.

Nobody says GKs have to use their tanks all the time, just like they don't have to teleport all the time. They will use whatever tool is best for the job at hand, keeping in mind any "environmental hazards" and other things that may put mission success at a risk.

On a sidenote, aren't teleporters also related to the Warp somehow? This is one of the pieces of IoM tech I've read next to nothing about yet, I confess.

 Amaya wrote:
I don't understand why Marines are used as pilots or drivers at all. Yes, I know it is so chapters can be largely autonomous, but even in the fluff their is only so much a single Chapter's full complement can do before they require allies. Virtually all major conflicts consist of multiple detachments of Imperial forces coming predominantly from the Imperial Guard and Space Marines.

It seems to me that using an elite killing machine that can deal and sustain more damage than any guardsman on foot as a pilot or driver is a waste of resources. The same is true for using Marines in Heavy Weapons squads. The Imperial Guard has personnel resources to spare, Marines do not. Why utilize Marines as anything other than shock infantry when the Imperial Guard can supply adequate pilots, drivers, and fire support?

I think this is one part of the fluff that continually gets downplayed and thrown under the bus far too often, chapter serfs. They have got to be around piloting, carrying supplies and ammo, tending equipment etc. I mean hell, Chaos has their slaves running around with them everywhere in the stories.

 DeffDred wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
Look at the Tanith 1st and Only they were like what 3000 -5000 and that was written by a Brit.

Dan Abnett is American.

I'm pretty sure he's British...

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
Look at the Tanith 1st and Only they were like what 3000 -5000 and that was written by a Brit.

Dan Abnett is American.

I'm pretty sure he's British...

Hmmm... one book says Kent in England the other says Virginia....

Dual citizenship?

Google says British. The Internet is never wrong!

1. Why do you American's always claim anything that is excellent is automatically "American"? Dan Abnett is not an American, you damn fools. I have met him twice and neither time was he even close to being a Yank.

2. Just because you live in a Country, doesn't automatically make you that Nationality, hence the existence of "Work Visa's" and "Dual Nationality".

3. Virginia, I have no idea if he has lived there or not, it's possible. However all Americans should be aware that most places in the US exist somewhere else in the world. So there is a Virginia in Surrey about 10 miles south of Windsor, so that's possible. Although in all honesty I haven't read the book that this is supposedly referenced in.

You'll probably tell me Terry Pratchett is an American next!

 mwnciboo wrote:


You'll probably tell me Terry Pratchett is an American next!

Don't be ridiculous...he is clearly an Aussie!


Anyway, Dan Abnett is not American. He is a Brit.
If he isn't, then wikipedia is going to be mighty embarrassed.