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In the latest FAQ, Incubi have been changed to AP2 across the board, apparently after their sales dropped to near zero with the introduction of 6th.
They now strike at initiative, hitting most things one 3s, wounding on 4s or 3s with enough attacks to make it worth it.

This sounds great and is certainly better than the place CWE Banshees have been left in. How many other squads out there have AP2 weapons that dont strike at init 1? How many are there out there that strike at init 5?

It does however, leave Incubi about where they were in 5th. They are fairly expensive and very very killy. Even with their armor you really hope that they don't wipe their target after a charge so they dont get shot in the open. They dont have grenades, so to preserve their high Init you really need to give them an Archon with a PGL, which doesnt help the too killy for their own good problem. Once you have an archon you might be tempted to add another character to take challenges, and the squad upgrade klavex is even more killy. With his murderous assault killyness is further enhanced. All at great cost and nothing really has added much survivability. Adding all this is also a problem against anything but 20 strong units of Khorne Bezerkers or Death Company, as just about anything without a solid ++ save is going to melt away.

In 5th these guys worked, not well, but worked in small 5 man squads with no upgrades. At his level, they weren't that expensive, and if they found an opportune target, like a 10 man squad of Meq out of cover, they could charge and do major damage and likely finish the squad in 2 turns. They were then also useful to take out terminators without storm shields with a squad of wyches in support. The wyhces lock the terminators so most of the terminators have to attack wyches with their 4++(and now maybe 4++/5+) while the incubi bravely pile all their attacking into one terminator on the edge.

Now with Teq growing are incubi getting more useful? Are the nerfed assault rules shelving them like so many other units? Has wyches decreased viability due to overwatch death removed the possiblity of combined arms attacks on terminators?

I have used them a few times in 6th. They helped win a pile on where i charged some TH/SS Teq with my entire army, gotten gunned down several times, and failed their charges otherwise from overwatch. Not a great track record. I am leaning towards saying, "even with AP2, these guys are not viable in semi competitive play."

Incubi are too good at what they do, and to do what they do means spending an arm and a leg in points. You need grenades, so you have to grab an archon(although I never understood the need for PGL, the archon has plasma grenades. Might be better now for +1 cover save). To have them weather an overwatch, the archon needs a shadow field. Once your taking a con, he needs a cool weapon and probably some drugs and maybe ghostplate armor.

The squad also loves to have FNP, so throw a hamey on in with them, and he will probably want a liquifier gun and maybe a CC weapon.

Throw the whole shebang into a raider with aethersails to get where you want quick and you could be looking at ~500 points.

Thing is, other assault deathstars can beat them, and shooty armies can drop them even with all the defensive upgrades.

They really, really, don't need grenades. I don't know why everyone thinks they do....they don't. The template weapon is a pseudo grenade if your absolutely worried about it, but really, it's not a big deal either way. Just don't assault very good CC units in cover and you'll be fine (And why exactly is this really good CC unit hanging out in cover in the first place)?. Even a full squad of ASM in cover are going to do kill what, 2 bases? I dunno, I just don't get it.

But yeah, the AP 2 buff was a very nice one.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
You need grenades, so you have to grab an archon(although I never understood the need for PGL, the archon has plasma grenades. Might be better now for +1 cover save).

The archon's grenades only allow HIM to strike at regular init. The PGL lets the whole squad strike at regular init.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
They really, really, don't need grenades. I don't know why everyone thinks they do....they don't. The template weapon is a pseudo grenade if your absolutely worried about it, but really, it's not a big deal either way. Just don't assault very good CC units in cover and you'll be fine (And why exactly is this really good CC unit hanging out in cover in the first place)?. Even a full squad of ASM in cover are going to do kill what, 2 bases? I dunno, I just don't get it.

But yeah, the AP 2 buff was a very nice one.

I agree with you about the grenades thing, but how can you the template weapon as a pseudo grenade? If that is true I really like that, and wouldn't mind using it.

But I am stuck between running 8 or 9 in a raider with the Duke, or 4 in a venom with the Duke. I really like the Duke, he is my new go to hq of choice.

CrimsonKing wrote:

I agree with you about the grenades thing, but how can you the template weapon as a pseudo grenade? If that is true I really like that, and wouldn't mind using it.

But I am stuck between running 8 or 9 in a raider with the Duke, or 4 in a venom with the Duke. I really like the Duke, he is my new go to hq of choice.

Well, the idea is, being an AP 3 template and ignoring anything but invulnerable and 2+ saves, you can use it to whittle down a few bases before assaulting. Basically, it gives you a moderately powerful I10 strike, and lowers the amount of damage you'll take before your bad boys start striking. If you run some simulations with the template weapon assaulting into cover and without, you'll see it generally "pays for it self" both in what it kills, and what it allows to live, in that scenario.

Also now days with Overwatch, it's not a bad thing at all to have in your back pocket when you get assaulted. And Klaivex's are Certified Badass's in the Challenge world. I think people's opinion of Incubi in general would go up substantially if they played with large, buffed out squads, more often. Now that you can clearly assault out of an assault vehicle even if you got shot down the previous turn, loading up 8 guys, a Haemie, and a beat stick HQ (like Draz for instance) in a Raider and turbo boosting it into your opponents face first turn, then reeking havoc starting turn 2, is a pretty damn powerful little bomb. I just think it's one of those units that really benefits from going hard as possible with.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

CrimsonKing wrote:

I agree with you about the grenades thing, but how can you the template weapon as a pseudo grenade? If that is true I really like that, and wouldn't mind using it.

Well, the idea is, being an AP 3 template and ignoring anything but invulnerable and 2+ saves, you can use it to whittle down a few bases before assaulting. Basically, it gives you a moderately powerful I10 strike, and lowers the amount of damage you'll take before your bad boys start striking. If you run some simulations with the template weapon assaulting into cover and without, you'll see it generally "pays for it self" both in what it kills, and what it allows to live, in that scenario.

it is only str 3 so even if you cover 3 marines you are unlikely to kill more than one.

And if you kill one, the closest model to your incubi is removed and then you have longer to charge on your 2d6.

 Exergy wrote:


it is only str 3 so even if you cover 3 marines you are unlikely to kill more than one.

And if you kill one, the closest model to your incubi is removed and then you have longer to charge on your 2d6.

All good points, but that one base can make a bit of a difference, and it's certainly feasible you'll kill quite a bit more the just one base (by covering quite a bit more). Think about assaulting a power blob, orcs, or gaunts, for instance, you either A.) force them to spread out (and thus limit the amount of bases they will get into the fight with the 3" move), or B.) Cut down quite a few bodies before you start going to work.

As far as killing the closest model, if your whole front line is roughly the same distance from their whole front line, that really limits the concern their. Also, if your close enough to do significant damage with the template, you are close enough that, with fleet, your likely to hit the assault even if you lose an inch.

Still, good points. Definitely things you'll want to keep in mind during execution.

I think running 4 incubi w/ drazhar in a venom is a viable option

As much as I like Incubi, I still don't think they're worth it.

They are overkill against most units, yet they still cannot kill TH/SS termies or GK with halberds.

They are probably at their best against non SS, non halberd terminators, but we can usually just shoot them down anyway.

I think if you are looking for an escort for your IC, Grotesques or allied Harlies (so they can have fortune cast of them) are your best bets.

All that being said, Incubi are awesome. I can't blame anyone for trying them out. I'm tempted to try Drazhar and a small unit just for pure badassery. If only they had access to grenades...

even with the FNP nerf, grotesques have gotten a lot better in 6th. I am so happy I converted them up, they are now one of my favorite units.

I still love my 3rd edition incubi, I have 20 of them. But I rarely take them these days as they perform so badly.

They are overkill against most units, yet they still cannot kill TH/SS termies or GK with halberds.

ORLY?

9 Incubii Assaulting 5 TH/SS termies (just for roughly equal points).

27 Attacks (2/3) hit (1/2) wound (1/3) failed save = 3

4 TH attacks (1/2) hit (5/6) wound, no save = 1.67

Hmmm. Odd, doesn't seem like the TH/SS have much of a chance at all. Even if the terms are in cover (why??) they only kill about 4, and will end up losing combat eventually.

The halberd unit could certainly be problematic if there is enough of them, although that's not entirely common in actual practice.

even with the FNP nerf, grotesques have gotten a lot better in 6th. I am so happy I converted them up, they are now one of my favorite units.

I tend to love my Grots as well, and with their T5, I think they are one of the few units that FNP is a clear buff for (along with Talos/Chronos).

I still love my 3rd edition incubi, I have 20 of them. But I rarely take them these days as they perform so badly.

How much have you used them since the FAQ? Admittedly, with my attentions on my Crons, I've only gotten in one game with them, however I've found Flat Outing a Raider filled with Incci's and Draz right up onto one flank has some pretty awesome results.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

They are overkill against most units, yet they still cannot kill TH/SS termies or GK with halberds.

ORLY?

9 Incubii Assaulting 5 TH/SS termies (just for roughly equal points).

27 Attacks (2/3) hit (1/2) wound (1/3) failed save = 3

4 TH attacks (1/2) hit (5/6) wound, no save = 1.67

Hmmm. Odd, doesn't seem like the TH/SS have much of a chance at all. Even if the terms are in cover (why??) they only kill about 4, and will end up losing combat eventually.

The halberd unit could certainly be problematic if there is enough of them, although that's not entirely common in actual practice.

Thanks for mathhammering that out. So it should take about 3 charging incubi to down a SS termie, and one terminator will most likely kill 1 incubi. That's good to know for quick odds during games.

However, you know you're gonna need a transport for the incubi, and I rarely see assault terminators in small units. I'm not saying that I'm scared of assault terminators, I just don't think Incubi are the best unit to take them on. However, if you catch 5 termies in the open, and you have 9 incubi within range... go for it

ShadarLogoth wrote:


ORLY?

9 Incubii Assaulting 5 TH/SS termies (just for roughly equal points).

27 Attacks (2/3) hit (1/2) wound (1/3) failed save = 3

4 TH attacks (1/2) hit (5/6) wound, no save = 1.67

Hmmm. Odd, doesn't seem like the TH/SS have much of a chance at all. Even if the terms are in cover (why??) they only kill about 4, and will end up losing combat eventually.

The halberd unit could certainly be problematic if there is enough of them, although that's not entirely common in actual practice.

You have gotta factor in the transport for incubi as well, how're you gonna get the incubi into range without one? It won't be a fair comparison if you're just running random numbers now, will it? And if we're to include even an unupgraded raider, you're now paying more than a TH/SS termie unit. How about we bring the incubi number down to 6, and include the cost of a raider, if we're matching the points cost.

6 incubi assault
18 attacks - 12 hits - 6 wounds - 2 unsaved
TH/SS termie strikes back
6 attacks - 3 hits - 2.5 unsaved

This isn't the setup most people would go for to begin with, but it's a bit more realistic than expecting an incubi unit of 9 to march up the board and survive, or ignore the unavoidable cost(being DE and all) of transport. 9 incubi + transport is way high cost for an unit that will most likely become a very high priority target, and be shot down before they could get into range, then you'd have 200+ points wasted. Hence why the most common set up won't use all the incubi in the world but usually drifting around the 4-6 mark.

That said, I'm not saying they're absolutely terrible, but I can hardly find a reason to use 9 of them + transport to deal with one unit, I'd rather just ignore the TH/SS and kill everything then focus fire on them at the end. If they're on a transport, blow it up, if they're footlogging, we've got the speed, challenging them with our assault unit is just plain silly.

The new incubi are a big part of why I started my DE army. They look utterly badass and combine Striking Scorpions (good armor, S 4) with Banshees (fleet, power weapons) perfectly, with the added boon of fast assault transports that regular DE can only salivate about.

I still run them, even though assault in 6th Ed really has become a restricte club: you're either using very durable specialists (termis, death company, Wolf cavalry), cheap disposable throngs of dudes(orks, nids), or the risks really start outpacing the benefits really fast.

I find that they actually do better against TH/SS terminators for the simple fact that they don't overwatch back. A lucky melta of flamer hit before you strike could mean less attacks, less dead enemies, more hits back at your guys. Hence, I prefer to shoot at the terminators until about 4 are left, and only then charge.

It -would- make sense to just go on shooting (pretty much always the case with current DE), but that kind of keep-away-and-fire game makes me want to slit my wrists.

Incubi are a great clean up unit for TEQs. If the other guy brought more than 5 per unit to the party then you (like most everyone else) need to soften them up a little. A few rounds of splinter/decintegrator fire will do wonders to help. Even 2+/3++ saves get failed every now and then.

I agree with Jayden63 incubi are really good at cleaning up, I had one game in 5th edition where my large beast squad was locked in combat with a completely decked out paladin unit including drago, and although the beast squad was putting up a good fight i was still slowly losing the combat that is until a small 5 man unit of incubi showed up and completely wiped out the entire paladin squad in one turn! so incubi are really good if you can soften up the squad a little before charging in, and I personally think that no unit does that better than beasts.

Being able to take on TH/SS terminators in combat assuming the charge and having grenades/nocover is not the problem

Incubi's problem is that compared to TH/SS terminators, they drop like flies to shooting. They are also significantly vulnerable to hordes. Basically anything non Meq is going to win out against incubi in protracted assault. Even guardsmen will bring them down.

Because they are so easy to kill in shooting, when you finally get across the field, there will be less of them.

Because hordes give them so much trouble, you only really want to take them if you KNOW exactly why your opponent is bringing.

TH/SS termines have a lot of counters, but they do well against a lot of things in the game. They are a pretty good hammer against most things, and even when they are countered, they are rarely completely outmoded.

Incubi on the other hand are only really dramatically effective against a very small number of units in the game. In addition the things that counter incubi tend to absolutely devastate them.

You have gotta factor in the transport for incubi as well, how're you gonna get the incubi into range without one? It won't be a fair comparison if you're just running random numbers now, will it? And if we're to include even an unupgraded raider, you're now paying more than a TH/SS termie unit. How about we bring the incubi number down to 6, and include the cost of a raider, if we're matching the points cost.

6 incubi assault
18 attacks - 12 hits - 6 wounds - 2 unsaved
TH/SS termie strikes back
6 attacks - 3 hits - 2.5 unsaved

This isn't the setup most people would go for to begin with, but it's a bit more realistic than expecting an incubi unit of 9 to march up the board and survive, or ignore the unavoidable cost(being DE and all) of transport. 9 incubi + transport is way high cost for an unit that will most likely become a very high priority target, and be shot down before they could get into range, then you'd have 200+ points wasted. Hence why the most common set up won't use all the incubi in the world but usually drifting around the 4-6 mark.

That's not an apples to apples comparison though. First of all, why are we factoring in a transport for the Incubi but not the terms? So the TH/SS terms are going to be deployed footslogging and expect to accomplish anything? Second of all, that Raider comes with a Gun. In a vacuum, if I got 6 guys in a Raider facing down 5 TH/SS foot slogging terms, I'm going to keep my distance and shoot at them until the threat is manageable. The fact is Incubi are more then capable of handling Terms, and the suggestion that they couldn't was flawed.

They are also significantly vulnerable to hordes. Basically anything non Meq is going to win out against incubi in protracted assault. Even guardsmen will bring them down.

I think that's what makes items like the Bloodstone, and attaching a Haemonuculi with a template weapon (LG or Shard or what ever) so important, not too mention the demiklave option. A well rounded Inci unit can take on anything short of deathstars, and if someone like Draz is attach to the unit the sky is really the limit.

Incubi on the other hand are only really dramatically effective against a very small number of units in the game. In addition the things that counter incubi tend to absolutely devastate them.

I'm just not sure if I can agree with that. They're very good against MeQ and TeQ, which is the vast majority of the game right there. And again, if you take the gear that makes them well rounded, they're perfectly suitable against anything. They bring a very respectable amount of I5/6 S4/5 AP2 attacks to the table, more then most non MC's can even dream about. Running down the list of thins

I just think that underlines the problem. People hold back with them, and come up disappointed when they match stuff a half staff Inci can't take. Now, as has been pointed out, a large squad is a big target. But what people don't seem to be realizing is with the new flat out rules and Sails you can turbo boost ~37" the first turn. There really isn't any good reason that you shouldn't be assaulting turn two. You combine that with other army options that can push the envelope and get in your opponents face immediately, and even if the Incubi take a lot of heat for that one turn of enemy shooting, they will do so behind a 3+. a cover save, and FNP. If you get them on one flank, they are unlikely to get wiped, and just a few guys left, if including and HQ and/or a pimped out Klaivex will be more then enough to take out your average troop.

This my favorite way of running them thus far:
Raider/NS/Sails 85
8 Incubi 178
1 Klaivex w/Demi/Blood 50
Haemie w/LG 60
Draz 230
Total 603

So, pricey, yes. But also effective. Again, the unit is fearless, so even if you get shot down to just Draz and the Klaivex, you have a two man wrecking crew that would slice and dice most units. Like I said before, my best experience with them has always been go big or leave them at home. YMMV as usual.

Baronyu wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:


ORLY?

9 Incubii Assaulting 5 TH/SS termies (just for roughly equal points).

27 Attacks (2/3) hit (1/2) wound (1/3) failed save = 3

4 TH attacks (1/2) hit (5/6) wound, no save = 1.67

Hmmm. Odd, doesn't seem like the TH/SS have much of a chance at all. Even if the terms are in cover (why??) they only kill about 4, and will end up losing combat eventually.

The halberd unit could certainly be problematic if there is enough of them, although that's not entirely common in actual practice.

You have gotta factor in the transport for incubi as well, how're you gonna get the incubi into range without one?

If you start counting in transports, you should also count the 250+ points the TH/SS terminators spent on there land raider. Then you have to count either the witches or the ravager to kill the raider, and soon your counting whole armies against each other.

 Exergy wrote:

Because they are so easy to kill in shooting, when you finally get across the field, there will be less of them.

How exactly are they easy to kill due to shooting? T3 is only 16% easier to wound than T4. 3+ armor save sporting a 5+ FNP save (which can be acquired in various ways). In this case they are actually more survivable than marines. So if your afraid that marines are too easy to kill, I guess there is no sense in fielding anything.

Because hordes give them so much trouble, you only really want to take them if you KNOW exactly why your opponent is bringing.

You just need to go big. The idea of the 5 man incubi squad is probably a thing of the past. But a full squad of 10 being lead by a Klavix with onslaught is effective against hordes. Incubi on the charge against orks - 27 attacks = 17.82 hits = 8.91 wounds (possibly an additional 1.5 wounds due to onslaught) from the Incubi. The Klavix has 4 attacks = 2.64 hits = 1.74 wounds for a total of about 12 dead orks. The numbers go up if the horde was only T3 or if the incubi had two pain tokens to get FC.

Yeah units of starting strength 30 probably need to be shot up just a hair before the attack (to limit overwatch and reduce return attacks) but there are only a few things that I would consider sending against a full strength mob of 30 orks.

Incubi on the other hand are only really dramatically effective against a very small number of units in the game. In addition the things that counter incubi tend to absolutely devastate them.

But isn't that how the game is played? I try to set my rock against his scissors, and do my best to avoid any of his paper.

I saw webway based army do pretty well with them.
Being able to bring them in where you need them is pretty good. 3+ armor and feel no pain holds up pretty well, for that one round of taking shots.

-Matt

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Because they are so easy to kill in shooting, when you finally get across the field, there will be less of them.

How exactly are they easy to kill due to shooting? T3 is only 16% easier to wound than T4. 3+ armor save sporting a 5+ FNP save (which can be acquired in various ways). In this case they are actually more survivable than marines. So if your afraid that marines are too easy to kill, I guess there is no sense in fielding anything.

bad math
against:
str2 33%/16% = 100% more effective
str3 50%/33% = 50% more effective
str4 66%/50% = 33% more effective
str5 83%/66% = 25% more effective
str6 they are equally effective

so str3 and 4 shooting being the most common availible, you are looking at 33-50% more wounds on T3 than T4. Then you have Meq surviability in general, which is great on 15 point models but less than great on 25 point models. Incubi cost 22 points, and die 33-50% faster than 15 point Meq


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Incubi on the other hand are only really dramatically effective against a very small number of units in the game. In addition the things that counter incubi tend to absolutely devastate them.

But isn't that how the game is played? I try to set my rock against his scissors, and do my best to avoid any of his paper.

yes I understand the game is about counters. My point is that TH/SS termies do not have much of a hard counter. There are very few things in the game that kill them that effectively. Usually you get into a slow grind that you will eventually win or you bring enough fire together to whipe them quickly, which can happen to anything.

How exactly is my math bad.

S3 against T4 3+ save (marine)
10 hits = 3.3 wounds = 1.1 unsaved

S3 against T3 3+ save 5+ FNP (Incubi)
10 hits = 5 wounds = 1.65 failed armor saves = 1.089 total lost wounds after FNP

S4 against T4 3+ save (marine)
10 Hits = 5 wounds = 1.65 unsaved

S4 against T3 3+ save 5+ FNP (incubi)
10 hits = 6.6 wounds = 2.2 failed armor saves = 1.45 total lost wounds after FNP

S5 against T4 3+ save (marine)
10 hits = 6.6 wounds = 2.2 failed armor saves.

S5 against T3 3+ save 5+ FNP (incubi)
10 hits = 8.3 wounds = 2.75 failed armor saves = 1.81 total lost wounds after FNP

Notice in all cases less Incubi have died to the same Strength shooting as the Marines. So yeah, the incubi always take more wounds but because they get two saves actually end up loosing less guys. Which was my point. Yeah, it hurts a little more when you loose an incubi anywhere between 4 and 7 points more (depending on which type of marine was being shot). The only time it changes is when the strength gets up to 6 where the Incubi loose their FNP.

Luckily dark eldar are really fast and TH/SH termies are really slow so you could essentially ignore them altogether or throw a wych squad at them since they gotz no range weapons either way they shouldnt prove to be that much of a hassle if you keep your distance