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Eyjio wrote:
To clarify, I'm arguing if there isn't a 360 mount, you cannot fire at all, not that wounds aren't allocated as normal. That immediately follows from 360 degree LOS.

You can say the weapon is hull mounted as it's fixed in place, but I would refer you to p72

On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place.

That's all well and good but you're leaving out the second part that says "players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings." So, again, how is the gun actually mounted to the vehicle? On the hull.

I didn't read the rest of your math quiz, no offense.

Now here we have a weapon that appears to be hull mounted. For all intents and purposes, it probably is, so let's just assume it is.

Now here's the paradox.

It's description says that you can place the point anywhere. So in essence, you can fire the death ray anywhere as long as it is in range (within 12" of the gun). I'm sure most people can agree with that, right?

Ok, now hull-mounted weapons only have a 45 degree arc of LOS. And in order to fire a weapon, you need to have LOS to the target. Now if I pick a primary point (or secondary point) outside of the arc - and it is legal because the rules say I can - then how can I fire the death ray when I don't have LOS to the target? The rules never tell you how to allocate wounds for the death ray. However, it also never tells you that you don't need LOS to fire the death ray as well. Then how can you fire at something that you can't see?!? You basically have 2 options. 1) You don't need LOS to fire the death ray or 2) you have a 360 degree LOS with the death ray. Given the premises, those are the only 2 things you can assume because otherwise, you just can't fire the death ray at all outside of its 45 degree frontal arc and that breaks the rule of the death ray (where you can fire anywhere with the death ray).

And why can you make this assumption? Because the rules of the death ray supercedes the normal rules for shooting. In order for the death ray to work in accordance to the rules stated in the necron codex, you either need to assume it (the death ray only) has LOS to the target or that it doesn't need LOS to the target. That is the only way for it to work RAW-wise.

 Kevin949 wrote:

That's all well and good but you're leaving out the second part that says "players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings." So, again, how is the gun actually mounted to the vehicle? On the hull.

I didn't read the rest of your math quiz, no offense.

You successfully missed the entire argument then. jy2 essentially just repeated it - not allowing it to have 360 degree LOS creates a paradox where you can shoot a unit, which means you cannot shoot the unit, so you create wounds but don't simultaneously and nothing can be allocated. I summarised it in the first sentence of my post too:

To clarify, I'm arguing if there isn't a 360 mount, you cannot fire at all, not that wounds aren't allocated as normal. That immediately follows from 360 degree LOS.

For a moment, let's assume it's hull mounted. Even if the first point must be picked within LOS (although the usage of "anywhere" would imply that such a restriction doesn't exist), the second point has no restrictions at all, apart from being within 3d6 of the original point. So, I can fire without LOS. The rules tell me I can't fire without LOS - the Death Ray says nothing about LOS at all, it simply is worded in such a way that LOS isn't a concern. So, if I follow the exact instructions to fire my weapon, I can't fire my weapon, which then inflicts hits and wounds, which are meaningless as the rules say I can't fire. It's a paradox. So, we must allow 360 degree LOS or an FAQ needs to come out adding in the missing restrictions.

I would also contest it's hull mounted. It's fixed in place to the bottom of the hull. It's not, however, totally embedded into the hull like all other hull mounted weapons - it has a modelled ball joint. If I assumed it was free to pivot on this, even with the tubes I'd have a 180 LOS, significantly more than 45 degrees. So yeah, it might be "hull mounted" or it might not be - at this point, it's irrelevant because the weapon causes a paradox if it's not given 360 degree LOS.

Eyjio wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

That's all well and good but you're leaving out the second part that says "players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings." So, again, how is the gun actually mounted to the vehicle? On the hull.

I didn't read the rest of your math quiz, no offense.

You successfully missed the entire argument then. jy2 essentially just repeated it - not allowing it to have 360 degree LOS creates a paradox where you can shoot a unit, which means you cannot shoot the unit, so you create wounds but don't simultaneously and nothing can be allocated. I summarised it in the first sentence of my post too:

To clarify, I'm arguing if there isn't a 360 mount, you cannot fire at all, not that wounds aren't allocated as normal. That immediately follows from 360 degree LOS.

For a moment, let's assume it's hull mounted. Even if the first point must be picked within LOS (although the usage of "anywhere" would imply that such a restriction doesn't exist), the second point has no restrictions at all, apart from being within 3d6 of the original point. So, I can fire without LOS. The rules tell me I can't fire without LOS - the Death Ray says nothing about LOS at all, it simply is worded in such a way that LOS isn't a concern. So, if I follow the exact instructions to fire my weapon, I can't fire my weapon, which then inflicts hits and wounds, which are meaningless as the rules say I can't fire. It's a paradox. So, we must allow 360 degree LOS or an FAQ needs to come out adding in the missing restrictions.

I would also contest it's hull mounted. It's fixed in place to the bottom of the hull. It's not, however, totally embedded into the hull like all other hull mounted weapons - it has a modelled ball joint. If I assumed it was free to pivot on this, even with the tubes I'd have a 180 LOS, significantly more than 45 degrees. So yeah, it might be "hull mounted" or it might not be - at this point, it's irrelevant because the weapon causes a paradox if it's not given 360 degree LOS.

Well, you're creating a paradox where one doesn't exist. Nothing is stopping you from shooting per the rules of the death ray, nothing is stopping you from hitting per the rules of the death ray. The only issue that arises is wounding models out of LOS of the vehicle, which is a rule that didn't exist in 5th edition. Everyone is so hung up on this LOS and 45 degree arc business when it doesn't apply to the death ray. Drawing LOS to your target is a limitation for targeting a unit for standard shooting, the targeting rules for the death ray do not follow these standard rules.

I agree with jy2.

codex > rule book

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with jy2.

codex > rule book

The codex does not override the rulebook restriction on allocating wounds to models out of LOS. JY2 has not shown this

I know we hate to interpret rules here as then we are getting into RAI instead of RAW but I think as this weapon is mounted on a flying vehicle we may have to take a little liberty. The evade rule itself as well as the Zoom rule tells us that flyers are never actually stationary. We have to assume that where they are at the end of the movement phase is the point where they are firing yes but at the same time tell me that the flyer is not in fact moving perpendicular to the ground or banking around or some other aerial maneuver. They have to model it so it makes sense and they have some basis to run it by so they model it with a base attached to the bottom and weapons under-slung like modern aircraft. None of this actually means anything as top and bottom mean little to a flyer so it could actually be upside down or on it's side at the end of movement. All this being said unless they are going to mount flyers on gyroscopic mountings you might as well put them flat on the board with no base if you assume the are sitting perfectly level with board at all times. If they can move as flyers can IRL then facing means nothing....

Wait for a faq or use the anywhere are about the only options you have unless you want to force flyers to crash if they fire as they are "stationary".

 Kevin949 wrote:

Well, you're creating a paradox where one doesn't exist. Nothing is stopping you from shooting per the rules of the death ray, nothing is stopping you from hitting per the rules of the death ray. The only issue that arises is wounding models out of LOS of the vehicle, which is a rule that didn't exist in 5th edition. Everyone is so hung up on this LOS and 45 degree arc business when it doesn't apply to the death ray. Drawing LOS to your target is a limitation for targeting a unit for standard shooting, the targeting rules for the death ray do not follow these standard rules.

It's not though, nothing allows you to ignore that rule. Nowhere in the death ray does it allow me to ignore LOS to shoot, so I must have LOS to shoot. The restriction is upon the target - which is everything along the line. Do you not think it's a little bizarre that I can create 5 hits on a unit, which I then can't wound because, although I needed LOS to fire, I didn't have it?

Eyjio wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Well, you're creating a paradox where one doesn't exist. Nothing is stopping you from shooting per the rules of the death ray, nothing is stopping you from hitting per the rules of the death ray. The only issue that arises is wounding models out of LOS of the vehicle, which is a rule that didn't exist in 5th edition. Everyone is so hung up on this LOS and 45 degree arc business when it doesn't apply to the death ray. Drawing LOS to your target is a limitation for targeting a unit for standard shooting, the targeting rules for the death ray do not follow these standard rules.

It's not though, nothing allows you to ignore that rule. Nowhere in the death ray does it allow me to ignore LOS to shoot, so I must have LOS to shoot. The restriction is upon the target - which is everything along the line. Do you not think it's a little bizarre that I can create 5 hits on a unit, which I then can't wound because, although I needed LOS to fire, I didn't have it?

No, the target is the "point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range". Range=\=LOS. Everywhere you look in the book referencing shooting they say, for standard shooting attacks, to pick a target in RANGE and LOS. Deathray overrides the LOS by stating "anywhere". If you limit the target point of the weapon then you are not abiding the "anywhere" clause in the weapon.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with jy2.

codex > rule book

The codex does not override the rulebook restriction on allocating wounds to models out of LOS. JY2 has not shown this

Exactly, everything being argued so far is based on assumption and conjecture. Bottom line is the deathray tells us how to achieve hits when drawing our line. It doesn't say ignore LoS let me remind you, it just never mentions line of sight, big difference. This to me makes those previous assumption even weaker.

You still need LoS to allocate wounds, welcome to 6th.

So it's crystal clear actually.

!. draw your line as per DR description
2. Count hits
3. Allocate wounds using normal rules (which require LoS)

If you place your line out of the 45 degree arc you are going to lose those wounds that can't be placed. Seems fairly intentional to me actually. GW just wrote one more inclusion to wound allocation that fixes things without reams of FAQ'ing.

codex > BrB. The brb also states I cannot target my own units. But I can drop the beginning or ending point right in the middle of my squad if I want to. Or can make the line pass entirely threw my unit if I so choose.

So. Targeting rules are broken by the Death Ray.
LOS is broken by the Death Ray. (The anywhere clause)
Angle of Fire is broken by the Death Ray. the 2nd point may very well fall outside 12" on 3d6

and your saying with all of that that the line can't wound unless a model is within 12 inches and a 45* arc in front of me?

 keltikhoa wrote:
codex > BrB. The brb also states I cannot target my own units. But I can drop the beginning or ending point right in the middle of my squad if I want to. Or can make the line pass entirely threw my unit if I so choose.

So. Targeting rules are broken by the Death Ray.
LOS is broken by the Death Ray. (The anywhere clause)
Angle of Fire is broken by the Death Ray. the 2nd point may very well fall outside 12" on 3d6

and your saying with all of that that the line can't wound unless a model is within 12 inches and a 45* arc in front of me?

Yes exactly. You need LoS in 6th Ed to allocate wounds from your wound pool. So if their aren't models from a unit being hit in your 45 degree arc of LoS then you empty the wound pool and they are lost as per pg 16.
Also people need to stop with the codex trumps rulebook argument because the codex can only trump what it addresses. The necron codex doesn't address wound allocation requiring LoS.
As of now no one has provided a rule that says the DR doesn't need LoS to allocate wounds.

 keltikhoa wrote:
codex > BrB. The brb also states I cannot target my own units. But I can drop the beginning or ending point right in the middle of my squad if I want to. Or can make the line pass entirely threw my unit if I so choose.

So. Targeting rules are broken by the Death Ray.
LOS is broken by the Death Ray. (The anywhere clause)
Angle of Fire is broken by the Death Ray. the 2nd point may very well fall outside 12" on 3d6

and your saying with all of that that the line can't wound unless a model is within 12 inches and a 45* arc in front of me?

Yes. Welcome to 6th. COdex only overrides BRB when it actually conflicts - here there is NO CONFLICT in the rules relating to allocation of wounds

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with jy2.

codex > rule book

The codex does not override the rulebook restriction on allocating wounds to models out of LOS. JY2 has not shown this

Maybe not, but I've shown that some rules just can't work in a pure RAW sense.

If you are talking about pure RAW, the the Hive Guard Impaler cannon and Tau SMS missiles don't work. They can fire at a unit out of LOS, but they can't allocate wounds to it.

If you are also talking about pure raw, then the Out of Sight rule doesn't apply to vehicles. Thus, if you can somehow hit a vehicle out of LOS, then you can damage it.

Sometimes, you have to make a logical assumption in order to have a particular rule work by RAW. Otherwise it just doesn't and there is no need for that rule in the first place.

 jy2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with jy2.

codex > rule book

The codex does not override the rulebook restriction on allocating wounds to models out of LOS. JY2 has not shown this

Maybe not, but I've shown that some rules just can't work in a pure RAW sense.

If you are talking about pure RAW, the the Hive Guard Impaler cannon and Tau SMS missiles don't work. They can fire at a unit out of LOS, but they can't allocate wounds to it.

If you are also talking about pure raw, then the Out of Sight rule doesn't apply to vehicles. Thus, if you can somehow hit a vehicle out of LOS, then you can damage it.

Sometimes, you have to make a logical assumption in order to have a particular rule work by RAW. Otherwise it just doesn't and there is no need for that rule in the first place.

First of all, those examples are irrelevant. There is a section in YMDC that invalidate challenges entirely, thing is, it holds no baring on this topic. They have their own RAW and ironically both those units discuss LoS, where as the DR actually doesn't at all. Because of its absence and the term anywhere you assume it ignores LoS. I've stated before, not mentioning and saying illicitly to ignore LoS are two monumentally different things.
Second of all, you have created your own paradox, you really didn't prove a thing RAW, you made assumptions based on areas that YOU deemed unclear. Care to show us a rule that states the DR doesn't need LoS to allocate wounds or are you just going to claim it's unclear (which it's not) again using circular logic?

 jy2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with jy2.

codex > rule book

The codex does not override the rulebook restriction on allocating wounds to models out of LOS. JY2 has not shown this

Maybe not, but I've shown that some rules just can't work in a pure RAW sense.

If you are talking about pure RAW, the the Hive Guard Impaler cannon and Tau SMS missiles don't work. They can fire at a unit out of LOS, but they can't allocate wounds to it.

If you are also talking about pure raw, then the Out of Sight rule doesn't apply to vehicles. Thus, if you can somehow hit a vehicle out of LOS, then you can damage it.

Sometimes, you have to make a logical assumption in order to have a particular rule work by RAW. Otherwise it just doesn't and there is no need for that rule in the first place.

Youre assuming their intent is to allow wounding out of LOS, with no actual rules to back that up or even any fluff. A tleast HG and SMS have the "out of LOS" wording - the death ray has NOTHING

But the entry says you can place the first point anywhere.

It says anywhere within range actually. Also if you read page twelve it tells us to check range and LoS in any order which tells me that the two are separate requirements entirely and the anywhere only addresses range. All of this of course being moot as when we get to assigning wounds you still require LoS. Btw have you found a rule that addresses that one yet?

They really need to release an FAQ about this. Both sides make really good arguments. Drawing a line of sight from the shooting point to the target is a good point, however, the DR never really picks a "Target" So....I dont know.

 Red Corsair wrote:

It says anywhere within range actually.

Sure which is limited to 12"... Nothing major there in my opinion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
But the entry says you can place the first point anywhere.

Yep. Brilliant.

Now find an exception to the rules regarding wound allocaiton and LOS. You cannot? Then it cannot wound models out of LOS, same as every other gun in the game that doesnt have a specific exemption to the usual rules.

To the people arguing that you can't wound a model you can hit can you please explain how that works logically. If I hit you with a bullet fired blindly through a wall, do you magically not get wounded because I was unable to see you?

 Canadian 5th wrote:
To the people arguing that you can't wound a model you can hit can you please explain how that works logically. If I hit you with a bullet fired blindly through a wall, do you magically not get wounded because I was unable to see you?

Logically, no. But 40K is not a logic based game. Deviating missiles can't wound targets out of LOS either, despite bouncing to land straight on their heads. It's not a uniquely Necron problem.

Irdion wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
To the people arguing that you can't wound a model you can hit can you please explain how that works logically. If I hit you with a bullet fired blindly through a wall, do you magically not get wounded because I was unable to see you?

Logically, no. But 40K is not a logic based game. Deviating missiles can't wound targets out of LOS either, despite bouncing to land straight on their heads. It's not a uniquely Necron problem.

Except that this is a weapon that can specifically fire off axis as evidenced by rules stating as much. What kind of sense does it make to design a weapon that can hit targets at these angles but that can, by some voodoo, not wound them.

everyones so hung up on the word anywhere but there missing the whole sentence "To fire the death ray, nominate a point anywhere within the wepons range..". It doesnt say nominate a point anywhere within 12", it says anywhere within its range. to me that says first point must be within 12" and 45 degrees of the doomsythe. if it cant turn more then 45 degrees how is behind it within its range?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Irdion wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
To the people arguing that you can't wound a model you can hit can you please explain how that works logically. If I hit you with a bullet fired blindly through a wall, do you magically not get wounded because I was unable to see you?

Logically, no. But 40K is not a logic based game. Deviating missiles can't wound targets out of LOS either, despite bouncing to land straight on their heads. It's not a uniquely Necron problem.

Except that this is a weapon that can specifically fire off axis as evidenced by rules stating as much. What kind of sense does it make to design a weapon that can hit targets at these angles but that can, by some voodoo, not wound them.

Because it was a weapon that was designed for a rules system that no longer applies.

You talk as if the weapon was created in 6th edition rules, which it wasn't. it's unfortunate that GW hasn't addressed this but as it stands it's entirely viable to hit outside of LOS but you can't technically wound anything. It's ridiculous, yes, but those are the breaks.

Yea I'm in the group saying sure target w/e you want in your 12" range. Than say you can't wound those are you sure that's where you want your line? ^^

Bronzino88 wrote:
everyones so hung up on the word anywhere but there missing the whole sentence "To fire the death ray, nominate a point anywhere within the wepons range..". It doesnt say nominate a point anywhere within 12", it says anywhere within its range. to me that says first point must be within 12" and 45 degrees of the doomsythe. if it cant turn more then 45 degrees how is behind it within its range?

No, range does NOT include the mounting movement to determine LOS. These are separate things.

Think of it this way, a psyker has a power that works within 12". You measure out 12" to a unit inside some ruins. You determine they're in range, now you check LOS and realize they're out of LOS and the power won't work. It's the same for vehicles except their LOS limitation is where the gun is facing. Their range is any direction at all to the amount specified.

Your example is irrelevant since infantry have a 360 degree arc. So heres an example for you: a squad of paladins are standing right behind a vindicator, are the paladins in range of the demolisher cannon? no, no they arnt.



Edit: got example backwards

Bronzino88 wrote:
Your example is irrelevant since infantry have a 360 degree arc. So heres an example for you: a squad of paladins are standing right behind a vindicator, are the paladins in range of the demolisher cannon? no, no they arnt.

Yes, they are, by definition.
They're out of LOS but very much in range. You should read the rules on measuring ranges.