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Codex > BRB

It is just that simple - really.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Codex > BRB

It is just that simple - really.

Only when there is a rules conflict. Is there a conflict in the wound allocation part of the rules? No. Therefore codex>brb does not apply.

Eyjio wrote:

So, we would have to accept the following for the Death Ray to not be able to have 360 degree LOS:

-The use of anywhere is irrelevant, the first point MUST be within LOS
-The second point MUST ALSO be within LOS, which we should intrinsically know somehow
-GW did not intend to override the rules for firing a weapon

1) Anywhere could be to clarify that you're not targeting an enemy unit, rather just marking a point on the ground.
2) Anything in the 45 degree arc would still be in line of sight, which is rather simple.
3) I'd say if GW did intend to over-ride all the rules, you could expect the shooting rules to start with "Instead of firing normally..."

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

Maybe not, but I've shown that some rules just can't work in a pure RAW sense.

If you are talking about pure RAW, the the Hive Guard Impaler cannon and Tau SMS missiles don't work. They can fire at a unit out of LOS, but they can't allocate wounds to it.
If you are also talking about pure raw, then the Out of Sight rule doesn't apply to vehicles. Thus, if you can somehow hit a vehicle out of LOS, then you can damage it.
Sometimes, you have to make a logical assumption in order to have a particular rule work by RAW. Otherwise it just doesn't and there is no need for that rule in the first place.

Impaller cannons ignore jink and any terrain or effect that gives cover, other than the cover the target is in or touching.
The smart missiles target gets cover for anything they are in, touching, or inbetween, totally different than the impaller.

What is the same is that both of those examples specifically say that they can fire on units out of line of sight.

Seems to me that the initial point on the ground is the target, and must be in line of sight. After that, draw your 3D6" line where ever you want.
Like the scattering blasts, GW hasn't said a word about allocating wounds, even though they list it as a different step in the shooting process.


-Matt

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Codex > BRB

It is just that simple - really.

Only when there is a conflict. Please show the codex rule that conflicts with the requirement to have LOS when allocating wounds

In my opinion there is a direct conflict since the rule in question says anywhere... There are no caveats stated in this particular rule.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
In my opinion there is a direct conflict since the rule in question says anywhere... There are no caveats stated in this particular rule.

Again, you havent showed a conflict between the rule for ALLOCATING wounds and the codex rule allowing you to place the line anywhere

You can, indeed, place the line anywhere
If you place it out of LOS then you cannot allocate any wounds

The latter rule doesnt, in any way, prevent you from placing the line anywhere you like.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
In my opinion there is a direct conflict since the rule in question says anywhere... There are no caveats stated in this particular rule.

Again, you havent showed a conflict between the rule for ALLOCATING wounds and the codex rule allowing you to place the line anywhere

You can, indeed, place the line anywhere
If you place it out of LOS then you cannot allocate any wounds

The latter rule doesnt, in any way, prevent you from placing the line anywhere you like.

As Nos said there.

What page does that rule appear in the rulebook?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What page does that rule appear in the rulebook?

P16, out of sight.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What page does that rule appear in the rulebook?

P16, out of sight.

Agreed, no conflict from Codex - BRB.

I'm sorry your death ray has to play by the rules?

From looking at the model it actually looks like a turret mounted weapon to me. The reason for this is it is attached to the underside of the flyer with an orb and the only other things runnning to it from the ship are what look to be hoses or cables both of which are flexible.

Gravmyr wrote:
From looking at the model it actually looks like a turret mounted weapon to me. The reason for this is it is attached to the underside of the flyer with an orb and the only other things runnning to it from the ship are what look to be hoses or cables both of which are flexible.

By that argument, Dreadnoughts, Defilers, and many others could turn around to fire behind them, even when immobilized, because their upper bodies and/ or arms look "turret mounted".

Oh it's definitely turret mounted. I'm looking at the model now as I type this.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Oh it's definitely turret mounted. I'm looking at the model now as I type this.

As am I. It is 100% hull mounted, and the only single time turret is mentioned is in the fluff.

It is definitely, 100% a hull mount. At no point does it look like it can turn.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Oh it's definitely turret mounted. I'm looking at the model now as I type this.

I'd love to hear why you say so, good sir.

Take a look at the model and you can see for yourself.

This thread kinda reminds me of the stormraven turret rumble.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Take a look at the model and you can see for yourself.

Took a look, yep appears to be hull mounted.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Take a look at the model and you can see for yourself.

Yep, hull mounted.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Take a look at the model and you can see for yourself.

Yep, hull mounted.

What makes your assumption about how it is mounted the correct one?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Take a look at the model and you can see for yourself.

Yep, hull mounted.

What makes your assumption about how it is mounted the correct one?

Can it rotate? Even assuming the actual mount could, doesn't it have cables that go up inside the craft?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Take a look at the model and you can see for yourself.

Yep, hull mounted.

What makes your assumption about how it is mounted the correct one?

Can it rotate? Even assuming the actual mount could, doesn't it have cables that go up inside the craft?

I don't have the model in hand, I don't actually even own one, so that's why I'm asking. The text about the Doom Scythe says's it's turret mounted, so the burden of proof seems to be on the hull mounted side to prove that it isn't a turret.

The fluff says its turret mounted. The rules say to look at the model. The model, as I recall, can't rotate because of cables coming out of it into the craft and the TL Tesla Destructors on either side of it.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
I don't have the model in hand, I don't actually even own one, so that's why I'm asking. The text about the Doom Scythe says's it's turret mounted, so the burden of proof seems to be on the hull mounted side to prove that it isn't a turret.

Not exactly.

Fluff on the Night Scythe has a single mention that its Tesla Destructor are turrets - there's no mention anywhere in the Doom Scythe's fluff that the Death Ray is Turret Mounted. (or did I miss something?)

Furthermore, it's always dangerous to take Fluff as rules. Fluff of several weapons say they "kill with the merest scratch". Does that mean they ID anything they hit, prior to wounding?

Additionally - not counting the Death Ray argument, are there any turret mounted guns in the game that actually can't rotate on the model? A serious question - my perception is strongly that vehicle models themselves represent the "mounting" of a weapon. Hull mounted guns are obvious. The LoS of Sponson mounted guns is based entirely on how far they can move on the model itself. Turrets, in my experience, can always turn on the model to show they are turrets, and to depict their range and LoS.

I mean, even the Stormtalon's turret can actually turn.

The fluff says its turret mounted. The rules say to look at the model. The model, as I recall, can't rotate because of cables coming out of it into the craft and the TL Tesla Destructors on either side of it.

Pg 72... On some models, it will actually, be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare case when it matters assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45o. even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that.


Whether it can or not seems to be less important that whether it looks like it should be able to.

Right. And I listed why it doesn't look like it should be able to.

The death ray sits on the bottom of the hull. I don't think anyone can really say its not counts as a turret. Of course the reverse is also true as well.

Fragile wrote:

The fluff says its turret mounted. The rules say to look at the model. The model, as I recall, can't rotate because of cables coming out of it into the craft and the TL Tesla Destructors on either side of it.

Pg 72... On some models, it will actually, be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare case when it matters assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45o. even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that.


Whether it can or not seems to be less important that whether it looks like it should be able to.

From how it looks on the model it's not meant to move an inch. Either R or L.

Why do you say that? Just curious.

I find it more Similar to the Hull Mounted Multi-Laser on the Vendetta, than to the Turret Mounted Multi-laser on the Chimera.

It in no way looks like a turret weapon from any model I've seen, definitely not a pintle-mounted weapon.

So based off of what I've seen from all the models I've owned/used/drooled over I'd say it's Hull mounted.