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 Alpharius wrote:

Though I have to agree that the ridiculous sight of a Word Bearer Elite hanging out with the Galaxy's Finest makes me worry about the care taken with the background!

1. Are you quite certain that Dark Apostles are intrinsically tied to Word Bearers still?
2. Chaos Space Marines are all Word Bearers, at least a little bit. There simply would not be Chaos Space Marines at all without them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Though I have to agree that the ridiculous sight of a Word Bearer Elite hanging out with the Galaxy's Finest makes me worry about the care taken with the background!

1. Are you quite certain that Dark Apostles are intrinsically tied to Word Bearers still?
2. Chaos Space Marines are all Word Bearers, at least a little bit. There simply would not be Chaos Space Marines at all without them.

Dark Apostles are Chaos Chaplains and the Word Bearers are the only traitor leagion that still uses them.

I think the idea can be extended though to other chapters.
It's a the counts as thing again.
My non word bearer's could have "Dark Apostles" which are simply particularly rousing and inspiring aspiring champions.

I think chaos often gives the most license for counts as. My plague marines are guys with shields and extra armour.
My noise marines are normal csm with really OTT weapons. My Rubric marines are csm on treads instead of legs. For an iron warriors army, you can have all the unit entries and not a mutation anywhere

 Plokoone wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Though I have to agree that the ridiculous sight of a Word Bearer Elite hanging out with the Galaxy's Finest makes me worry about the care taken with the background!

1. Are you quite certain that Dark Apostles are intrinsically tied to Word Bearers still?
2. Chaos Space Marines are all Word Bearers, at least a little bit. There simply would not be Chaos Space Marines at all without them.

Dark Apostles are Chaos Chaplains and the Word Bearers are the only traitor leagion that still uses them.

Is that what it says in the new codex?

Not any more. You were....uh....led to believe that by falsified Imperial records.

 Plokoone wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Though I have to agree that the ridiculous sight of a Word Bearer Elite hanging out with the Galaxy's Finest makes me worry about the care taken with the background!

1. Are you quite certain that Dark Apostles are intrinsically tied to Word Bearers still?
2. Chaos Space Marines are all Word Bearers, at least a little bit. There simply would not be Chaos Space Marines at all without them.

Dark Apostles are Chaos Chaplains and the Word Bearers are the only traitor leagion that still uses them.

Yup, was actually just re-reading the 3.5 'dex yesterday, and it's pretty black and white about it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Plokoone wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Though I have to agree that the ridiculous sight of a Word Bearer Elite hanging out with the Galaxy's Finest makes me worry about the care taken with the background!

1. Are you quite certain that Dark Apostles are intrinsically tied to Word Bearers still?
2. Chaos Space Marines are all Word Bearers, at least a little bit. There simply would not be Chaos Space Marines at all without them.

Dark Apostles are Chaos Chaplains and the Word Bearers are the only traitor leagion that still uses them.

Is that what it says in the new codex?

I don't have the new Codex silly . This is based of every piece of Word Bearers fluff up to now. It would be really strange to change it now.

...except now all armies are getting generic to replace the old theme army lists (ex: Master of the Forge HQ, Bike capt = bike troops, jetbikes w/o necessity of saim hann, all of the crazy options IG vets and HQ got). It's a sad watering down (I loved army restrictions for minor bonuses or special options), but it's the way things have been going for a long time.

 Plokoone wrote:


I don't have the new Codex silly . This is based of every piece of Word Bearers fluff up to now. It would be really strange to change it now.

Well, this wouldn't be the first time GW ret-conned some portion of the fluff. Some people howled at the far more drastic changes the Necrons underwent in the newest codex.

-C6

SInce when has GW ever let their fluff get in the way of selling models?

do rage and counterattack work together?

Meteoric descent is s7, guessing that is the Drake's vector strike.

 JohnnoM wrote:
do rage and counterattack work together?

Because of the wording, no. However that would have been very nice, I agree!

Here's the problem I see. Tzeentch and Slaanesh Terminators are more survivable against heavy weapons than Nurgle Terminators and Plague Marines will probably be more survivable per points than Nurgle Terminators.


Unit T Armor Invul FNP S4 AP5 Kill Percentage S8 AP3 Kill Percentage S7 AP2 Kill Percentage S10 AP1 Kill Percentage
Plague Marines 5 3 - 5 7.41% 55.56% 55.56% 83.33%
Plague Marines 5 3 - 4 5.56% 41.67% 41.67% 83.33%
Nurgle Terminator 5 2 5 - 5.56% 13.89% 55.56% 55.56%
Nurgle Terminator 5 2 5 5 3.70% 9.26% 37.04% 55.56%
Slaanesh Terminator 4 2 5 5 5.56% 13.89% 37.04% 55.56%
Slaanesh Terminator 4 2 5 4 4.17% 13.89% 27.78% 55.56%
Tzeentch Terminator 4 2 4 - 8.33% 13.89% 41.67% 41.67%
Tzeentch Terminator 4 2 4 5 5.56% 13.89% 27.78% 41.67%

 Amaya wrote:
Here's the problem I see. Tzeentch and Slaanesh Terminators are more survivable against heavy weapons than Nurgle Terminators and Plague Marines will probably be more survivable per points than Nurgle Terminators.


Unit T Armor Invul FNP S4 AP5 Kill Percentage S8 AP3 Kill Percentage S7 AP2 Kill Percentage S10 AP1 Kill Percentage
Plague Marines 5 3 - 5 7.41% 55.56% 55.56% 83.33%
Plague Marines 5 3 - 4 5.56% 41.67% 41.67% 83.33%
Nurgle Terminator 5 2 5 - 5.56% 13.89% 55.56% 55.56%
Nurgle Terminator 5 2 5 5 3.70% 9.26% 37.04% 55.56%
Slaanesh Terminator 4 2 5 5 5.56% 13.89% 37.04% 55.56%
Slaanesh Terminator 4 2 5 4 4.17% 13.89% 27.78% 55.56%
Tzeentch Terminator 4 2 4 - 8.33% 13.89% 41.67% 41.67%
Tzeentch Terminator 4 2 4 5 5.56% 13.89% 27.78% 41.67%

Huh, that is odd. It does appear though that nurgle terminators do tend to fair better against S8 AP3 and S4 AP5 shooting.
Still an oddity, however.

Not really. T5 offers no benefit over T4 against s7+ attacks EXCEPT for giving you FNP against S8 and 9.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
Here's the problem I see. Tzeentch and Slaanesh Terminators are more survivable against heavy weapons than Nurgle Terminators and Plague Marines will probably be more survivable per points than Nurgle Terminators.


Unit T Armor Invul FNP S4 AP5 Kill Percentage S8 AP3 Kill Percentage S7 AP2 Kill Percentage S10 AP1 Kill Percentage
Plague Marines 5 3 - 5 7.41% 55.56% 55.56% 83.33%
Plague Marines 5 3 - 4 5.56% 41.67% 41.67% 83.33%
Nurgle Terminator 5 2 5 - 5.56% 13.89% 55.56% 55.56%
Nurgle Terminator 5 2 5 5 3.70% 9.26% 37.04% 55.56%
Slaanesh Terminator 4 2 5 5 5.56% 13.89% 37.04% 55.56%
Slaanesh Terminator 4 2 5 4 4.17% 13.89% 27.78% 55.56%
Tzeentch Terminator 4 2 4 - 8.33% 13.89% 41.67% 41.67%
Tzeentch Terminator 4 2 4 5 5.56% 13.89% 27.78% 41.67%

Huh, that is odd. It does appear though that nurgle terminators do tend to fair better against S8 AP3 and S4 AP5 shooting.
Still an oddity, however.

There's lies
There's Damn Lies
There's Statistics
And then there's Mathhammer

 Plokoone wrote:

I don't have the new Codex silly .

He knows that. You’re missing his point.

 Plokoone wrote:
This is based of every piece of Word Bearers fluff up to now. It would be really strange to change it now.

It’s not strange at all. They have a new model to sell, and want to sell it to as many players as possible. Ergo, the fluff gets changed.

The fluff only serves as a device to sell models, and thus it is not sacred. It will change on whatever whims are required to sell whatever is new. I thought that by now people would understand this?

I think anybody could take dark apostles back in 2nd ed, but my 2nd ed book is in storage. I am hoping world bearers get some kind of bonus to their dark apostles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well my dragon is almost sculpted, and the concept will work great under the new rules. With 2-4 autohits at s7 per turn they should be able to make short work of av11 side armor flyers. The scary part is coming in from reserve the threat range of vector strikes is huge.

Damn, I was hoping the codex books would not be hardback, let alone come with a $49.50 price tag. OUCH!

Has anyone seen/heard anything about the potential for a Legion Codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrazyBones wrote:
Damn, I was hoping the codex books would not be hardback, let alone come with a $49.50 price tag. OUCH!

Too true, especially after I was barely able to justify 70 bucks for a new 6th edition rulebook


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is it just me, or was anyone else hoping for an upgraded bike model?
I did notice the bike upgrade kit, but thats like trying to put a new hood on a 89 buick skylark...still looks old and blocky.

There were no Dark Apostles in 2nd Ed. The fluff mentions that the Word Bearers still have Chaplains, but Dark Apostles are not mentioned at all.

 carabine wrote:


There's lies
There's Damn Lies
There's Statistics
And then there's Mathhammer

Do you have any more generic nonsense to spew?

Unless Fear somehow becomes extremely useful, Nurgle Terminators are inferior to Slaanesh Terminators barring an extreme cost differential. A 33% chance to make an FNP save makes up for the 16.7% increased chance to be wounded by S6 and lower weapons. FNP is superior to a 1 point increase in Toughness.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There were no Dark Apostles in 2nd Ed. The fluff mentions that the Word Bearers still have Chaplains, but Dark Apostles are not mentioned at all.

I think there was a unit called demagogue? Or something to lead the cultists. Anyhow not to concerned as long as world bearers get some kind of bonus. The main thing I am hoping for is multiple competitive builds rather than another codex black legiom.

 tripsix wrote:
Has anyone seen/heard anything about the potential for a Legion Codex?

There was never any truth to the rumors of a Legion codex, and the only reason people believed there would be was blind hope. The guy posting Chaos Legion rumors has 20 False rankings and counting to the Rumor Tracker. There will never, ever be a Chaos Legion codex released from GW. Accept it and work with what we have.


The rules seem more or less ok. I had a minor nerd-rage to myself over the FNP for Slaanesh and not Nurgle, but whatever. I've been wanting to expand my Death Guard to include a Fabius Bile led enhanced warrior contingent for awhile, so I'm going with that and am just going to have fun with the new rules.

What does bother me is not only do we not get new special character, we don't get a single new sculpt for our existing special characters. I was really excited for a new Kharn sculpt, and hoping for a new Bile sculpt. Considering all the new SM sculpts that are made year in, year out, anything new for special characters sculpts after 10-16 years of the same sculpts would be welcome.

Did you take into account that Nurgle Terminators also might be able to take Blight Grenades? Thus decreasing the amount of attacks they take when charged?

Additionally, while statistics are nice, it doesn't always account for actual gameplay. In my experience, Mathhammer rarely has much legitimate standing when you actually play the game.



P.S. Anyone with questions about Word Bearers/Dark Apostles needs to read the Word Bearers books by Anthony Reynolds.

 Amaya wrote:

 carabine wrote:


There's lies
There's Damn Lies
There's Statistics
And then there's Mathhammer

Do you have any more generic nonsense to spew?

Unless Fear somehow becomes extremely useful, Nurgle Terminators are inferior to Slaanesh Terminators barring an extreme cost differential. A 33% chance to make an FNP save makes up for the 16.7% increased chance to be wounded by S6 and lower weapons. FNP is superior to a 1 point increase in Toughness.

Nonsense is people trying to base value on units with abilities that are inherently random. Fact is trying to calculate percentages with this game doesn't work due to the fact that it's based on dice which are usually unbalanced and more often than not do not conform to the standard 16.7% per side. When I was in college I actually used this for a statistics class showing how the system was misrepresented.

Simple fact is resorting down to these numbers is an excess, run with what you run with and if you're that desperate to win a tourny that you're basing your army on a fraction of a %, you REALLY need a new hobby.

Personally I'm still gonna run Khorne. GorFrag is still gonna run Slaanesh and my other buddy is gonna run Nurgle cause thats what we like and FNP / +1 T ain't gonna make that kind of a difference.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wait... there's no Bolt of Change. There's no Bolt of Change! I know there's 'Doombolt'... but the name 'Bolt of Change' isn't there. I can't recall Jervis' 3rd Ed book off the top of my head, but has their ever been a Chaos Codex that didn't have Bolt of Change?

Sorry mate, I think Ward trademarked it in Chaos Demons.
I'm not sure if it actually works like that, but that seems to be the case.

Alessio did the Chaos Daemon book for 40k...

Seriously, I can't tell if people are making jokes anymore, or if they really believe ward does everything.

Ward does do everything - otherwise he wouldn’t be our Spiritual Liege. Ward is all of us, and we are all of Ward.

*makes sign of The Ward across chest*

 schadenfreude wrote:
I think there was a unit called demagogue? Or something to lead the cultists. Anyhow not to concerned as long as world bearers get some kind of bonus. The main thing I am hoping for is multiple competitive builds rather than another codex black legiom.

You’re right, there was a Demagogue unit. But he wasn’t a Marine and he certainly wasn’t related to the Word Bearers in any way. He was just a regular human.

Darth Bob wrote:Did you take into account that Nurgle Terminators also might be able to take Blight Grenades? Thus decreasing the amount of attacks they take when charged?

Additionally, while statistics are nice, it doesn't always account for actual gameplay. In my experience, Mathhammer rarely has much legitimate standing when you actually play the game.



P.S. Anyone with questions about Word Bearers/Dark Apostles needs to read the Word Bearers books by Anthony Reynolds.

The table based on percentages for each attack and ignores number of attacks, weapon skill, ballistic skill, and striking order.

carabine wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

 carabine wrote:


There's lies
There's Damn Lies
There's Statistics
And then there's Mathhammer

Do you have any more generic nonsense to spew?

Unless Fear somehow becomes extremely useful, Nurgle Terminators are inferior to Slaanesh Terminators barring an extreme cost differential. A 33% chance to make an FNP save makes up for the 16.7% increased chance to be wounded by S6 and lower weapons. FNP is superior to a 1 point increase in Toughness.

Nonsense is people trying to base value on units with abilities that are inherently random. Fact is trying to calculate percentages with this game doesn't work due to the fact that it's based on dice which are usually unbalanced and more often than not do not conform to the standard 16.7% per side. When I was in college I actually used this for a statistics class showing how the system was misrepresented.

Simple fact is resorting down to these numbers is an excess, run with what you run with and if you're that desperate to win a tourny that you're basing your army on a fraction of a %, you REALLY need a new hobby.

Personally I'm still gonna run Khorne. GorFrag is still gonna run Slaanesh and my other buddy is gonna run Nurgle cause thats what we like and FNP / +1 T ain't gonna make that kind of a difference.

Fabius Pile needs to stop leaving his Rod of Torment lying around.