Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hm. Only half of your powers can be from the god-table, the rest have to be generic.

Chaospling wrote:

 Bloodhorror wrote:
There also haven't been any rumors that the Helbrute can take a Thunder Hammer either apart from this one.



All i'm saying is, its more likely for the Terminators to be able to take a Thunder Hammer rather than a Dreadnought.

But it's not a rumour. A guy read the codex and told what he read. I hope this is clear enough. If not, then get the White Dwarf, one of the small pictures of the Elites section of the codex is displayed, there you can barely make out the text: "May replace one Power Fist with one of the following:
Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge." Afterwards it states:"May replace one Power Fist with a Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak missiles."

Got a link to this picture?

Hmm well we can't see the rest of the Cultists entry with that hand blocking the way, but it appears that I am guessing there isn't much anyways beyond the ability to take a heavy stubber and a heavy flamer.

I was hoping Cultists would have gotten marks or even a mark-lite ability to differentiate themselves in worship to the different Gods so I can warrant building five different large blobs of Cultists.

Oh who am I kidding - I am still going to build five different large blobs of Cultists.

Their options aren't going to be listed in the bestiary, they never are. They will be in the army list section and rumour has it they can be marked.

 Bloodhorror wrote:

Chaospling wrote:

 Bloodhorror wrote:
There also haven't been any rumors that the Helbrute can take a Thunder Hammer either apart from this one.



All i'm saying is, its more likely for the Terminators to be able to take a Thunder Hammer rather than a Dreadnought.

But it's not a rumour. A guy read the codex and told what he read. I hope this is clear enough. If not, then get the White Dwarf, one of the small pictures of the Elites section of the codex is displayed, there you can barely make out the text: "May replace one Power Fist with one of the following:
Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge." Afterwards it states:"May replace one Power Fist with a Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak missiles."

Got a link to this picture?

Sorry no, I only have the magazine in front of me.

Oooooh straight up slow and purposeful again for Tsons, and no "The sorcerer commands" rule. Hm

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Oh, how Kelly hates Tzeentch. It's not even funny in a bad way anymore.

You have to re-roll Boon of Mutation if it turns you into a DP.

Where does it say that?

 Hulksmash wrote:
Phil Kelly wrote this codex. No one should be worried about power level. He's had one codex that didn't just stomp the gaming scene and that Dark Eldar and the only reason they didn't I feel is that a lot of people didn't want to put in the time.

This is the problem, just because Kelly will make chaos a balanced book does not mean all other books written will be. By being "balanced" we are already under powered compared to other books that are inherently over powered.

Some people are not satisfied until every single page of the Codex has a readable scan in this thread.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Some people are not satisfied until every single page of the Codex has a readable scan in this thread.

What? You expect people to be patient?

Haha! Ohhh Kroothawk...

 Brometheus wrote:
Oooooh straight up slow and purposeful again for Tsons, and no "The sorcerer commands" rule. Hm

Nooo! Goodbye, Overwatch with AP3 bolters! We never had you, but it was nice to think we might....

 Kroothawk wrote:
Some people are not satisfied until every single page of the Codex has a readable scan in this thread.

A download of a fully readable eBook would be preferable. If you would make sure that different readers are supported, it would be much appreciated

But, in all seriousness, I think it will be the future. If Codexes now go for GBP 30,-, more people will want to get a good idea of what it will be like online on forums like Dakka before they buy.

Haha.

Wish I could talk to Phil K. about the whole "only half of your psychic powers may be Tzeentch if you have the Mark of Tzeentch" thing.

.......and maybe also the whole ML:1 aspiring sorcerer not being able to take Breath of Chaos thing.

I'm still more than happy. Don't really care about the Overwatch thing or not. We don't have Divination anyways, so we've been getting along just fine with the current codex in 6th to not need Overwatch.

The sky's not falling. Look at our cheap sorcerer HQ. Pewpewpew!

I for one, was a little worried about not getting skyfire missiles (flakk), good to see they're in.

"Come here little flyers"

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Phil Kelly wrote this codex. No one should be worried about power level. He's had one codex that didn't just stomp the gaming scene and that Dark Eldar and the only reason they didn't I feel is that a lot of people didn't want to put in the time.

This is the problem, just because Kelly will make chaos a balanced book does not mean all other books written will be. By being "balanced" we are already under powered compared to other books that are inherently over powered.

You apparently misunderstood me. Let me make it clearer:

4th Edition Eldar Skimmer Spam ugliness/Early 5th Edition Seer Council Shenanigans
4th Edition Tyranid MC list
Late 4th and all through 5th Edition Orks
Space Wolves

See, all 4 of those codexes were pretty dominant in their edition and one of them made it through 2 editions so far and is still pretty good in it's 3rd. Heck, Eldar are still competing in their 3rd edition.

In other words Kelly writes good codexes. The only one that people call "balanced" and consider not power is Dark Eldar. And in 5th that was mostly because people didn't understand the list and in 6th still don't.

So, once again, this book is gonna be fine. It'll probably take a month or two but expect it to be an insane book once you dive in.

Abaddon making Chosen Troops is all I needed to hear!

With all the options available to Chosen now and the base 2A I am looking forward to the army of 10,000 year old badasses I have wanted all along.

I'm probably the only Chaos player that has never used Cult troops, now I'm so glad to have all those Power Armored marines and Icons...

So far my biggest peeve is the Chaos Land Raider. Not that great before, still lame now, same bizarrely tiny capacity, but more expensive.

 Sephyr wrote:

So far my biggest peeve is the Chaos Land Raider. Not that great before, still lame now, same bizarrely tiny capacity, but more expensive.

where did you get the points costs from please?

Knighty wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

So far my biggest peeve is the Chaos Land Raider. Not that great before, still lame now, same bizarrely tiny capacity, but more expensive.

where did you get the points costs from?

Q&A thread on Faeit's blog has it at 230. I hope it's not accurate or left some big details out!

still the same, 10pts more

Faeit Blog wrote:Abbadon
265pts. Chosen can be taken as troops. Can choose to either use Drach'nyen at +1S AP3 or Talon at x2S AP2 (both at full initiative). Gives preferred enemy space marines to every unit in 12"

So if this is true, why would anybody ever make use of Drach'nyen? The Talon gives you higher strength, lower AP, and is the same initiative..? I wonder if you have to roll for the daemon weapon if you're only using the Talon.

 morgendonner wrote:

Faeit Blog wrote:Abbadon
265pts. Chosen can be taken as troops. Can choose to either use Drach'nyen at +1S AP3 or Talon at x2S AP2 (both at full initiative). Gives preferred enemy space marines to every unit in 12"

So if this is true, why would anybody ever make use of Drach'nyen? The Talon gives you higher strength, lower AP, and is the same initiative..? I wonder if you have to roll for the daemon weapon if you're only using the Talon.

I have the page, your APs are swapped. Claw is AP 3, sword is AP 2

Ah ok that makes infinitely more sense.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Phil Kelly wrote this codex. No one should be worried about power level. He's had one codex that didn't just stomp the gaming scene and that Dark Eldar and the only reason they didn't I feel is that a lot of people didn't want to put in the time.

This is the problem, just because Kelly will make chaos a balanced book does not mean all other books written will be. By being "balanced" we are already under powered compared to other books that are inherently over powered.

You apparently misunderstood me. Let me make it clearer:

4th Edition Eldar Skimmer Spam ugliness/Early 5th Edition Seer Council Shenanigans
4th Edition Tyranid MC list
Late 4th and all through 5th Edition Orks
Space Wolves

See, all 4 of those codexes were pretty dominant in their edition and one of them made it through 2 editions so far and is still pretty good in it's 3rd. Heck, Eldar are still competing in their 3rd edition.

In other words Kelly writes good codexes. The only one that people call "balanced" and consider not power is Dark Eldar. And in 5th that was mostly because people didn't understand the list and in 6th still don't.

So, once again, this book is gonna be fine. It'll probably take a month or two but expect it to be an insane book once you dive in.

The problem is Space Wolves are only broken because of a few select units and 1 power. They really only have 1 realistic list which, coincidently, is all Dark Eldar are sporting with more than half their book being useless (and by useless I mean each option is such a distant second there's no reason to consider them in each FOC). He makes terrible rules, I'm sorry. I'm sure Chaos will be a fantastic book if you're looking for 1 or 2 competetive lists and a ton of subpar fluffy options with half the units having limited use because of FOC bloat or simply being awful. But hey, we can stick with the whole wait and see approach if you want, but that kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion board.

I have 4 armies I really focus on: Dark Eldar (incubi++), Dark Angels, Thousand Sons, and Iyanden. Nothing has really changed in 15 years for me to try and expand these armies.

Nvs wrote:


The problem is Space Wolves are only broken because of a few select units and 1 power. They really only have 1 realistic list which, coincidently, is all Dark Eldar are sporting with more than half their book being useless (and by useless I mean each option is such a distant second there's no reason to consider them in each FOC). He makes terrible rules, I'm sorry.

I agree. But even worse than the rules is IMO that Kelly's rule so often go against the grain of what the army should feel like. Space Wolves became a gun-line-army led by Wizard-spam when it should by an army moving forward with aggressive cunning, led by glory-seeking martial heroes. Dark Eldar should be a thinking-mans army of dirty tricks and lighting-fast razor-strikes, instead it became 40Ks dumbest drown-your-opponent-in-dice-MSU-spam-fest.

Kelly IMO really struggles to translate fluff into rules. I hope Chaos will be the exception to his poor track-record. I would have vastly preferred him doing Dreadfleet expension or whatever and leaving 40K to other people.

@Nvs

If you think SW's have only one competitive build we're not going to agree because you're simply wrong.

I also disagree with the DE statement but hey, it's the internet and the internet says there is only one build and units are useless so don't use it!

I'm absolutely down with discussing but saying the sky is falling from digesting things in a vacuum is silly. Even though in a vacuum with some of the information out there it's obvious this is going to shape up solidly. Granted, that's my opinion and I've been wrong before

Nvs wrote:
They really only have 1 realistic list which

For each metagame, each codex will produce one, and only one, optimal list. The only reason people think a codex can produce several different, equally powerful lists is because they do not understand how to evaluate the metagame and optimize their roster.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Nvs wrote:
They really only have 1 realistic list which

For each metagame, each codex will produce one, and only one, optimal list. The only reason people think a codex can produce several different, equally powerful lists is because they do not understand how to evaluate the metagame and optimize their roster.

Or maybe people want to have fun and have an army set up the way that they would like to. My battlebuddy runs Black Templars and has been told several times, both here and in person, that he runs his list incorrectly. With a ridiculous win record, and three Ard Boyz titles, I think he's doing just fine.

The reason there are multiple units per FOC slot is so that people may play the way they want. Why does every list have to be for maximum viability or whatever crap means "your army list isn't right".

I, for one, am lookong forward to the new Chaos codex. The random factor will make it pretty cool.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Nvs wrote:
They really only have 1 realistic list which

For each metagame, each codex will produce one, and only one, optimal list. The only reason people think a codex can produce several different, equally powerful lists is because they do not understand how to evaluate the metagame and optimize their roster.

Quite the opposite. As long as their is such a thing as a meta-game, no "one" list will ever be optimal. People will flock to list "A" because it is good. Once list "A" has a critical number of players, it is likely that list "B" will become popular because it offers a unique threat to the popular list "A". Once "B" then makes the round, people will experiment to find its counter "C" and eventually flock to it. Etc.,, etc..

It is the one crucial difference between an unchanging "meta-game-free" game like Chess (where "skill" is essentially a greater awareness of existing moves) and a "meta-game" game like 40K (where "skill" is essentially being slightly ahead of the rolling meta-game curve compared to the majority of the players).

 Zweischneid wrote:
Quite the opposite. As long as their is such a thing as a meta-game, no "one" list will ever be optimal. People will flock to list "A" because it is good. Once list "A" has a critical number of players, it is likely that list "B" will become popular because it offers a unique threat to the popular list "A". Once "B" then makes the round, people will experiment to find its counter "C" and eventually flock to it. Etc.,, etc..

That's fashion. I'm talking about the technical quality of an optimal list in relation to every other optimal list, which has nothing to do with how popular any of those are.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Or maybe people want to have fun and have an army set up the way that they would like to. My battlebuddy runs Black Templars and has been told several times, both here and in person, that he runs his list incorrectly. With a ridiculous win record, and three Ard Boyz titles, I think he's doing just fine.

So? Perhaps his list is closer to the metagame optimum than the conventional ones? Perhaps he's good enough to consistently put up good result with suboptimal lists? It really doesn't matter. There's no obligation to play the best list after all.

I'm guessing a mod will whip us with a picture of some poor dead SW chump in a moment.