CSM Roundup

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**Agamemnon2**

garrapignado wrote:
And I suppose Orks, DE, Tyranids... have different armies that can't be represented with their current codex. Richer the fluff, harder to represent it on the board.

DE are happy in that all three major segments of their culture - Kabal, Cult and Coven - are possible in their army list, if not viable.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

carabine wrote:
Alpha legion doesn't ALWAYS infiltrate they usually work with cultists etc, and they CAN infiltrate with the warlord traits (I know it's not everything but it's something )

In the 3.5 ed dex the WE/EC/DG/TS used to be a armies. When in the 4th ed codex they went from being whole armies to nothing more than single unit choices, I thought they got screwed. But Alpha Legion? Went from being a whole army to a random option on the warlord traits table. Can you imagine if they did that to loyalists? "At the start of the battle roll a D6. Ooh look you rolled a 5. Replace your Vulkan He'stan model with Shrike. Congratulations! You're playing Raven Guard now! Let's craft a narrative."

The sad part is that this could have all been rectified by 2 very easy rules.

1. Cult units can purchase terminator armor. Any units so upgraded do not become troops if your HQ is marked.

2. Any unit with the Veterans of the Long War rule may purchase (that's purchase, NOT ROLL RANDOMLY) an upgrade from the following list:

Tank Hunters
Infiltrate
Night Vision + Fear
Zealot? Some Word Bearer type ability.

I don't care how much the upgrades cost. Just let me take them.

I would trade all the robot dinosaurs in the world for the 2 changes above.

**fyurian**

euh i wont go through 82p of chit chat i just want to know if havocs still exist and is they have been made points effective.
i despise the fact that forgefiend and maulerfiend have armour 12.
and oblis should have t5 even 1 lucky ml shot is an instakill (if yer armour failes)

**Dr. Delorean**

In the 3.5 ed dex the WE/EC/DG/TS used to be a armies. When in the 4th ed codex they went from being whole armies to nothing more than single unit choices, I thought they got screwed. But Alpha Legion? Went from being a whole army to a random option on the warlord traits table. Can you imagine if they did that to loyalists? "At the start of the battle roll a D6. Ooh look you rolled a 5. Replace your Vulkan He'stan model with Shrike. Congratulations! You're playing Raven Guard now! Let's craft a narrative."

The sad part is that this could have all been rectified by 2 very easy rules.

1. Cult units can purchase terminator armor. Any units so upgraded do not become troops if your HQ is marked.

2. Any unit with the Veterans of the Long War rule may purchase (that's purchase, NOT ROLL RANDOMLY) an upgrade from the following list:

Tank Hunters
Infiltrate
Night Vision + Fear
Zealot? Some Word Bearer type ability.

I don't care how much the upgrades cost. Just let me take them.

I would trade all the robot dinosaurs in the world for the 2 changes above.

Why do we need to be given -everything-? Why can't we just use what we're given to make a themed force? I can take Havocs, defense lines, Basilisks, and Obliterators! BAM! Iron Warriors army! I can take cultists, IG allies, Dark Apostles, BAM! Word Bearers! I can take funky versions of Raptors which blind people when they land, sonic weaponry, and a giant terrifying dragon thing, BAM! Night Lords.

Stop asking to get every possible choice for every possible army, you're not going to get it. Just do what I, and many others, do, and theme your force with the tools you have available. Like your imagination!

**Praxiss**

Brother SRM wrote:
And if you're really set on the 3.5 Iron Warriors, you can ally in a Basilisk battery for three times the gun. I'm looking forward to taking some of this cool new stuff and expanding my Iron Warriors. I guess it's about time they got some footsloggers, mutation in their ranks, and daemon engines.

Already thinking how i can convert my current Warsmith to have mechandrites. I LOVE the new model but £18 is a little steep for a model that will snap if the wind changes.
I'm think guitar wire and some sort robotic claws....maybe some ork bits.

i can't speak for the other legiosn since, to be brutally honest, i dont have any real interest int hem. But the stuff i have seen give my iron Warriors a new lease on life!

Also, why are people whining about berzerker chain axes "only" being AP4? They were essentially AP- in the last codex! For x point per model they now ignore armour on Orks, necron Warriors and Crypteks, Fire Warriors (i think), IG, Eldar.
i woudl consider that one hell of a boost!

Loyalist players seem to make do ok with not having a separate codex for every legion. Yes, i am aware that some of the Chapters that specifically diverge from the Codex Astartes have their own books. Maybe it's just me but i dont see many threads around here going "Oh NO! My C:SM doesn't have a specfic entry anrd special rules for my Raven Guard/Iron Hands/Salamanders/imperial Fists army! What am i going to do now!?!?!"

You take whatever special characer or HQ model best suits, and you take the bits of the codex that best suit that particular army.

Night Lords - Raptors and Warp talons seem to be aimed at you - Put a jump pack on your Hq to complete the set.
Iron Warriors - WARPSMITH and Daemon Engines would seem to be the order of the day
Word Bearers - Dark Apostle and cultists would like a word....

i will admit i have yet to see anything that screams Alpha Legion at me. Maybe the Chosen or basic Lord will have an option that we are as-yet unaware of.

**SoloFalcon1138**

In reference to another discussion thread: I wonder if the various daemonic units in the Chaos codex will be declared as daemons, like obliterators and possessed marines.

And I wonder if chaos icons still provide deep strike guidance, maybe to their allies, like daemons?

**kitch102**

Speaking of cultists, have we seen any info on them yet? It's been about 25 pages since I last checked in and hoped someone could point me to it!

**Ajroo**

Praxiss wrote:

Also, why are people whining about berzerkesr chain axes "only" being AP4? They were essentially AP- in the last codex! For x point per model they now ignore armour on Orks, necron Warriors and Crypteks, Fire Warriors (i think), IG, Eldar.
i woudl consider that one hell of a boost!

The other option is: For 0 points a model, don't take the chain axes.

I think its best to wait another 11 days until we get the book, but i'm liking most things (except the dinobots), and i'm really looking foward to re-shuffling my army. The standard CSM changes are okay, the champion is cheaper now and there are ways to squeeze the points down if needed. I can finally use a dark apostle and ally in daemons, things are looking good (except the dinobots).

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Dr. Delorean wrote:
Why do we need to be given -everything-? Why can't we just use what we're given to make a themed force? I can take Havocs, defense lines, Basilisks, and Obliterators! BAM! Iron Warriors army! I can take cultists, IG allies, Dark Apostles, BAM! Word Bearers! I can take funky versions of Raptors which blind people when they land, sonic weaponry, and a giant terrifying dragon thing, BAM! Night Lords.

Great idea. If I want a Thousand Sons force I'll just take some rubric marines and some rubric terminators and BAM! Oh wait.

Stop asking to get every possible choice for every possible army, you're not going to get it. Just do what I, and many others, do, and theme your force with the tools you have available. Like your imagination!

I do use my imagination. I imagine that the designers put some legion rules in the codex. You know, some flavorful rules that would take up literally less an 1/8 of page and don't break anything. Then I come back to reality and they aren't there. Even though it took me only like 10 min of imagining to come up with something that fit. Funny how the design studio couldn't manage that. Instead we get robot dinosaurs. I remember when the 4th ed blandification codex hit and there were pages upon pages of Chaos players griping and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Oh the gnashing of the teeth! Now I may be getting old and crotchety and my memory isn't what it used to be, but I don't recall a single post complaining about the lack of robot dinosaurs. I could be wrong though.

**Godless-Mimicry**

To all the people asking the same questions over and over, just check the summary please.

To the 1k Sons fans who are endlessly complaining that people are saying their unit got nerfed; get over it, they did by 6th edition. I am a huge 1k Sons fan and love Tzeentch more than the other Gods by a mile, but that doesn't change the facts. SNP at 23pts just doesn't cut it in this game.

Spartan089 wrote:Honestly from what it seems its not, everything seem over costed...no new characters, leadership drops across the board, units that are more expensive but arguably worse than they were (berserkers). Leadership drops, and watered down versions of things that the loyalist get that are alot better, Dark apostle (Chaplin) and Warp Smith (tech marine)...And I'm sure there is more.

You mentioned Ld drops twice even though as far as I've seen nothing lost Leadership, Berserkers are not more expensive and are not worse than they were before, Warp Smith has more rules and ideas than a Tech Marine so how is it watered down? And how is everything overcosted? Seems to me like you have come into a thread with plenty of good and accurate information and ignored all of it.

**Praxiss**

Just looking at the marks and everything...

Anyone know if Cult units can take icons?

It looks like you can give a standard CSM unit MoK and icon of Wrath and they get Rage, Counterattack, Furious Charge and re-roll charge range....

i'm wondring if this works out cheaper or more expensive than giving a unit of Khorne berzerkers (who i'm assuming already have MoK) the Icon of Wrath.

Also seen a few people (myself included) who are planning on using their HellBlade model instead of the Dragon. Having seen the actual size of the dragon in WD this looks like a definate possability. I was just going to use the model and keep the dragon rules and costs - mostly as the Hellblade rules are pretty old and weren't updated in the recent FW FAQs.

**JohnnoM**

Does anyone know whether or not there is a "storm shield" upgrade?

**aka_mythos**

I have no idea who has it, but the "sigil of corruption" provides a 4+ inv... probably as close as we get.

**Praxiss**

It would be great if someone could post a pic of the Melee and Ranged weaposn list that is mention in some of the unit entries.

I'm guessing that the Sigil of Corruption will be a purchasable upgrade for a Lord or maybe even an Aspiring Champion

**blood reaper**

Anyone seen these pics?

http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.ca/2012/09/chaos-space-marine-codex-photos.html

Plus some other link;

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/08/11/rumor-has-it-csm-codex-rumor-drop-part-2/

**Sasori**

aka_mythos wrote:
I have no idea who has it, but the "sigil of corruption" provides a 4+ inv... probably as close as we get.

Yeah, I imagine that with Mark of Tzeentch is about as close as it gets.

**Praxiss**

Not me. Give me a sec and i will re-post them here for the work impaired.

Done.

Spoiler:

**Crimson**

Ajroo wrote:
Praxiss wrote:

Also, why are people whining about berzerkesr chain axes "only" being AP4? They were essentially AP- in the last codex! For x point per model they now ignore armour on Orks, necron Warriors and Crypteks, Fire Warriors (i think), IG, Eldar.
i woudl consider that one hell of a boost!

The other option is: For 0 points a model, don't take the chain axes.

Yeah, that's the thing. You need to model the axes, and if you do so, you basically end up paying two points extra per model just for cool looks against PA armies (And sure, I will do it, berzerkers should have axes, that's their thing.) This bugs me slighty. Not a huge deal, but mildly annoying.

Also, don't Berzerkers come with furious charge as standard, but not the charge reroll? So they have to buy the icon for reroll, and that point only thing besides axes they have over regular CSM is the WS.

I just worry that Berzerkers with axes and Icon will be inferior option compared to normal CSM with mark and icon.

**Ravanar**

Sigil of corruption?

I'll kiss a great unclean one if that's not for the dark apostle in place of a rosarius.

**Bonde**

You can complain as mush as you want about the price of the new codex, but that looks gorgeous! I would be more than willing to pay that for a book that nice.

**Sasori**

Crimson wrote:
Ajroo wrote:
Praxiss wrote:

Also, why are people whining about berzerkesr chain axes "only" being AP4? They were essentially AP- in the last codex! For x point per model they now ignore armour on Orks, necron Warriors and Crypteks, Fire Warriors (i think), IG, Eldar.
i woudl consider that one hell of a boost!

The other option is: For 0 points a model, don't take the chain axes.

Yeah, that's the thing. You need to model the axes, and if you do so, you basically end up paying two points extra per model just for cool looks against PA armies (And sure, I will do it, berzerkers should have axes, that's their thing.) This bugs me slighty. Not a huge deal, but mildly annoying.

Also, don't Berzerkers come with furious charge as standard, but not the charge reroll? So they have to buy the icon for reroll, and that point only thing besides axes they have over regular CSM is the WS.

I just worry that Berzerkers with axes and Icon will be inferior option compared to normal CSM with mark and icon.

I don't think anyone is going to raise a big deal, if you use the Chainaxes, and say they are regular CCW. Also, Pointswise, it looks like it would be much more expensive to model CSM up to Khorne Berserker Standard, since you would have to purchase the BP&CCW, and the Mark. You also can't get furious charge, and Khorne Berserkers have the WS of 5. At least, from what I understand of the Leaked pictures/rumors.

**cortez**

Do we have any idea what the AP of daemon weapons is?

**CthuluIsSpy**

cortez wrote:
Do we have any idea what the AP of daemon weapons is?

AP2, most likely. I doubt they would change it after its just been FAQ'd.

**Ajroo**

Crimson wrote:
Ajroo wrote:

The other option is: For 0 points a model, don't take the chain axes.

Yeah, that's the thing. You need to model the axes, and if you do so, you basically end up paying two points extra per model just for cool looks against PA armies (And sure, I will do it, berzerkers should have axes, that's their thing.) This bugs me slighty. Not a huge deal, but mildly annoying.

Also, don't Berzerkers come with furious charge as standard, but not the charge reroll? So they have to buy the icon for reroll, and that point only thing besides axes they have over regular CSM is the WS.

I just worry that Berzerkers with axes and Icon will be inferior option compared to normal CSM with mark and icon.

But some berserker models have axes anyway, its fine to use them as normal close combat weapons.
Berzerkers come with furious charge as standard, yeah they don't get the re-roll but also they can't get this sniped like an icon. (which they probably cant buy, i dunno? could get it cheaper?) They also come fearless.

I'm not sure how many points they are, but you could be right, it could end up being cost effective to use CSM (at 15points). i just think a built in icon, WS5 and fearless will be worth the points. has anybody seen their unit entry?

**Crimson**

Sasori wrote:

I don't think anyone is going to raise a big deal, if you use the Chainaxes, and say they are regular CCW.

I'm afraid I can't do that. I'm a bit obsessive about WYSIWYG.

Also, Pointswise, it looks like it would be much more expensive to model CSM up to Khorne Berserker Standard, since you would have to purchase the BP&CCW, and the Mark. You also can't get furious charge, and Khorne Berserkers have the WS of 5. At least, from what I understand of the Leaked pictures/rumors.

You can get BP&CCW for free, as long as you give up the bolter. And the same icon that gives charge reroll gives furious charge.

**Symbio Joe**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

I remember when the 4th ed blandification codex hit and there were pages upon pages of Chaos players griping and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Oh the gnashing of the teeth! Now I may be getting old and crotchety and my memory isn't what it used to be, but I don't recall a single post complaining about the lack of robot dinosaurs. I could be wrong though.

I doug it out for you

08/31/2007 3:40 AM Alert
Posted By Toreador on 08/30/2007 4:26 PM
I would almost bet Jervis didn't instigate it. We instigated it. People have been dropping from the game because of a lack of balance (perceived) and rules issues. Things were done, and people let go because sales for 40k have plummeted. Jervis was brought in to try and help clean it up.
No. Management instigated it. When they tasked Andy Chambers with designing 4th ed, Chambers took the opportunity to overhaul the entire system. When he presented his revision to management they soundly rejected it on the grounds that it was too different from 3rd ed. They wanted a ruleset that would work with 3rd ed codices with minimal adjustment. Balance and playability were secondary to the requirement of backwards compatitbility. So he promptly scrapped his 4th ed ruleset, turned in a minor reworking of the 3rd ed rules as instructed, gave management the finger and quit.
Fast-forward a couple years. The studio is adrift. Without a strong Overfiend to provide a counterbalance the bean counters are firmly in charge. They have demanded that the Black Templars along with the 3 primary marine variants from 3rd ed be treated to full army releases complete with full standalone codices and plastics. Pete Haines is gone. Graham McNeill has been canned for doing his job (evidently management didn't realize that the popularity of Black Templars in 3rd ed stemmed largely from their horribly overpowered rules, so when McNeill did what any halfway competent games designer should have done and toned them down, their sales suffered and McNeill was canned). Players' interest and enthusiasm have waned as releases (almost half of which are now marines) proceed at a snail's pace and a 3-month rumor window leaves some factions (Orks) with no hope for the foreseeable future. The clunky Frankenstein monster that is 4th ed continues to shamble along. Sales suffer. Privateer Press is eating their lunch.
So they have a core ruleset designed primarily for compatibility with codices that were written for a different ruleset. Half of the existing codices were written by designers who no longer work there. They have a policy of no FAQs, no fixes, no revisions (at least of the non-stealth variety) to codices until they are rewritten for the next edition. So what do they do at this late hour? What's their solution? They bring in Jervis and tell him to "fix it" - one codex at a time. And then they let Gav Thorpe write the new Chaos codex. What a clown show.

With that piece in mind Phil Kelly and Matt Ward making a brave new 40k "backround" with a tweaked ruleset and codices written to work with a core ruleset and that is something to looking forward to, isn't it?

**Praxiss**

I'm feelign even more boosted having just read through the basic marines unit entry form the pics earlier in the thread.

Just did a quick price comparison on a, what i woudl consider, a basic 10 man marine squad...

OLD CODEX
10 marines
1 champ (no add-ons)
1 meltagun
1 heavybolter
IoCG
TOTAL: 195 points
(unit can re-roll morale checks)

NEW CODEX
10 marines
1 champ (no add-ons)
1 meltagun
1 heavy bolter
Icon of Vengeance
Veterans of the long War
TOTAL: 180 points
(unit is Fearless, Ld 10 until the champ dies and re-rolsl hits vs marines in the first round of cc).

I'm excited.

**lord_blackfang**

Praxiss wrote:
I'm feelign even more boosted having just read through the basic marines unit entry form the pics earlier in the thread.

Just did a quick price comparison on a, what i woudl consider, a basic 10 man marine squad...

OLD CODEX
10 marines
1 champ (no add-ons)
1 meltagun
1 heavybolter
IoCG
TOTAL: 195 points
(unit can re-roll morale checks)

NEW CODEX
10 marines
1 champ (no add-ons)
1 meltagun
1 heavy bolter
Icon of Vengeance
Veterans of the long War
TOTAL: 180 points
(unit is Fearless, Ld 10 until the champ dies and re-rolsl hits vs marines in the first round of cc).

I'm excited.

You also have 10 attacks less, but never mind that.

**blood reaper**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Praxiss wrote:
I'm feelign even more boosted having just read through the basic marines unit entry form the pics earlier in the thread.

Just did a quick price comparison on a, what i woudl consider, a basic 10 man marine squad...

OLD CODEX
10 marines
1 champ (no add-ons)
1 meltagun
1 heavybolter
IoCG
TOTAL: 195 points
(unit can re-roll morale checks)

NEW CODEX
10 marines
1 champ (no add-ons)
1 meltagun
1 heavy bolter
Icon of Vengeance
Veterans of the long War
TOTAL: 180 points
(unit is Fearless, Ld 10 until the champ dies and re-rolsl hits vs marines in the first round of cc).

I'm excited.

You also have 10 attacks less, but never mind that.

Still 15 point's cheaper, the unit is fearless, re-rolls against the most common army in the game, no longer highly expensive.....

But never mind that.

**MajinMalak**

Praxiss wrote:
I'm feelign even more boosted having just read through the basic marines unit entry form the pics earlier in the thread.

Just did a quick price comparison on a, what i woudl consider, a basic 10 man marine squad...

OLD CODEX
10 marines
1 champ (no add-ons)
1 meltagun
1 heavybolter
IoCG
TOTAL: 195 points
(unit can re-roll morale checks)

NEW CODEX
10 marines
1 champ (no add-ons)
1 meltagun
1 heavy bolter
Icon of Vengeance
Veterans of the long War
TOTAL: 180 points
(unit is Fearless, Ld 10 until the champ dies and re-rolsl hits vs marines in the first round of cc).

I'm excited.

I believe your math is wrong. For what you have posted for the new Codex, it's 195pts. If you want the same amount of attacks, you have to tack on another 20pts. So you have to spend 215 pts to get equivalent.