CSM Roundup

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**lord_blackfang**

Hulksmash wrote:
I see the roles of the Dragon completely differently from many of the other flyers. Most flyers suffer from lack of offensive output or are compromised by being a transport and gunboat but the Dragon is pretty pure.

I see the Dragon as an engine of destruction. I'd happily take the St6 AP3 Torrent Flamer (I already love throwing fire with my hellhounds & dreadknights) for killing swathes of marines while vector striking other flyers or vehicles.

The problem with many flyers, the necrons included, is that they will rarely recoup their points thru damage. The dragon can do it in a single phase. Personally I'm picking up to to support my likely mostly foot based list.

By these "many fliers" with major shortcomings you must mean the two Ork Bommas and nothing else, right?

**Brometheus**

The Helldrake is definitely exciting for those of us who use foot sloggers.

**Sephyr**

Experiment 626 wrote:

For example, no one thinks BA's having Assault Marines as Troops is OTT/OP because the rest of their army isn't full of super scary crap like cult troops, cheaper termies, daemon engines & daemonic allies.
Imagine now for example, a CSM army with Raptors as Troops, backed up by a Daemon Prince, Noise Marines, Oblits, Helldrake & Cultist hordes!
Or how about, god forbid, an Iron Warriors army that has Havoc Troops, backed up by T5 termies, Warp talons, Daemon engines & IG allies?!

Not to split a hair too fine, but a good deal of the BA's effectiveness came from having small, cheap, good troop units (assualt marines) easily placed into the best light transport in the game (fast razorbacks with amazing weaponry) and backed by the best support unit in the game (priests hanfing out FNP and FC like candy), and that's leaving out their insane CC specialists, fast Vindicators, Blender dreads, a Flyer and a psyker HQ that eats Daemon Princes for lunch.

**Hulksmash**

Pretty sure I was clear.

The only flyer honestly that breaks the mold is the Vendetta which is the only flyer not priced with 6th in mind. But against a list with limited flyers or vehicles even that struggles to get it's value.

**Minx**

-- please delete --

**Praxiss**

people are sayign we are lackign in fliers......

I think people are forgetting that until the next 'dex comes out we are THE ONLY army capable of fielding Flakk missile.

Depending on the price of havocs i am almost tempted to field a squad of 5 Havics with 4 Flakk MLs. 4x S7 missiles at BS4 will make any flyer worry.

**Jayden63**

lunarman wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
lunarman wrote:
Knightly, I agree with you.

SR are 200 points and Valks are 130.

This dragon is about as good as a valk, but no better imho.
It should be 130 not 170. At 130 then it would be worth taking.

Don't even get me started on SR. For 30 points more you get more armour, more guns, more transport capacity, more options.

Problem is we have to take some anti flier and our HS slot are too overfilled to take havoks...

Seeing as how the Valkyrie is underpriced by about 30/40 points and the SR (while pointed correctly but gets too cheap of upgrades) I don't see the dragon as being underpriced. Especially when you look at the DE and ork flyers and the cost of most FMCs.

Underpriced? How do you mean? That's it's price, right there in the book... Guard's 6th ed codex is long way off, and whether or not you feel the Valk is cheap for what is does doesn't change the fact that is costs what it does and therefore the game is affected by it. As a result, new codices should be aimed at the actual power level in the game (and not a power lvl that might appear in 1-2 years when Guard are redone).

Saying something is underpriced makes no sense to me, because things change so slowly and people take what's good. Chaos will fight against a 6 flier IG army and 9 flier necron armies and they need the tools to take them out. But if our dragon is 170 pts, then I can see us never winning that fight.

On actual stats comparison with the SR.
SR has:
+ 1 bs
+2 Rear Armour
+ Melta Protection
+ Dread Carrier
+ Troop Carrier
+ Assault Vehicle
+ Power of the Machine Spirit
(Let's equate vector strike and Missiles. Although vector strike is weaker, it's autohitting and means two targets damaged a turn by the dragon)
(Let's equate a lascannon and hades autocannon, although a TL las is probably better....)
- 5++ save (basically unreliable for survival)
- IWND (again, cannot be relied upon for survival)
- Daemonforge (Rather niche but handy ability. I'd not say it was worth any points though, I'd rather BS4 any day)

I really want to buy 2 Dragons for my army. I just don't want to buy them without someone telling me they'll be worth every point :(

My bad. My original post should have said I do not feel that the dragon is overpriced. I'll edit my original post.

**Wrakkar**

SOD PESSIMISM!! YOU ALL KNOW THAT DAMNED DRAGON IS AWESOME!!!!

Moral of the story: Join chaos - we have a dragon!

**lunarman**

Praxiss wrote:
people are sayign we are lackign in fliers......

I think people are forgetting that until the next 'dex comes out we are THE ONLY army capable of fielding Flakk missile.

Depending on the price of havocs i am almost tempted to field a squad of 5 Havics with 4 Flakk MLs. 4x S7 missiles at BS4 will make any flyer worry.

I believe the current rumour is Havoks are 15 points each.
10 for MLs
10 for Flakk not replacing Frag or Krak.
155 points for 5 Havoks is good. Especially as a few ablative wounds are quite cheap.

They are much more boring than Dragons, and they take up a coveted HS slot, but I think 3 squads of Flakk Havoks might be the best way to deck out the HS section.

**Brometheus**

..and so Codex: Havocs begins, not unlike Codex: Long Fangs.

Shame!

**Hulksmash**

Except that if you play a player with a Dragon and the Bale Flamer thing you'll lose that Havoc squad before it gets to shoot. And 5-man squads tend to get put down from even Necron or Ork flyers. That discounts your opponent trying to take them out early for dominance of the sky. Not sure it's going to be just like Long Fangs for 5th.

**Sephyr**

Brometheus wrote:
..and so Codex: Havocs begins, not unlike Codex: Long Fangs.

Shame!

I find this unlikely. SW literally have little else to cram their HS slot with. Land Raiders can come easily from terminators, Predators and Vindicators are unremarkable.

CSM, on the other hand? Oblits. The new daemon Engines. Defilers. Land Raiders for berserkers. There's actual competition here!

**Brometheus**

Come on gentlemen, it was just a joke because we have the same Author.

I just think with all these options it's silly to spam x3 of a heavy support unit.

**Praxiss**

I can see myself fielding a dragon and a squad of ML havocs. Especially if Flakk does nto replace Frag and krak.

Give the dragon the flamer thingy and you have a fair chance, between the 2 units, of taking out 2 flyers and soem MEQs eavery turn.

I think people are still giving flyers a lot more credit than they're due.I have played a few games with and against them and, at least in my experience, they are not as game breakign as everyen seems to think they are.

**bogalubov**

Brometheus wrote:
Come on gentlemen, it was just a joke because we have the same Author.

I just think with all these options it's silly to spam x3 of a heavy support unit.

I am still tempted to max out on obliterators.

As for havocs, i am having trouble seeing how they could be worth it. A unit of 5 with 4 missiles is probably going to cost more than 130 points and they are basically a quad gun. So they cost more than a vendetta and would have trouble to bring one down.

Ignoring flyers might be the way to go for chaos.

**Knighty**

I'll end up fielding a dragon anyway, maybe even two, purely because it's a FA slot that doesn't have a lot of competition.

The raptor models are nice, but they can't capture, same for bikes. I'd rather have cheaper troop marines in a rhino.

I see the the GW site that Chaos Spawn are in FA too, but I also noticed that one of the leaked pages has a "D6 attacks" rule for them, which means I'm still not interested.

I am quite looking forward to converting a dragon too, even if they are crap.

**Mr. Balloon Hands**

Did no one read 'Legion'???

Alpha legion does not use cult troops!! Please stop getting this wrong. Nor are cult troops a fix for them not being reped in the new codex!!

Yes- Alpha Legion used some Humans. But they used Special Op humans, the nest of best in human term, Fething Navy SEAL humans. Not a bunch of dumb mind freaked humans. They used a few very highly skilled very highly effect humans that could get things done.

"OH a blob of cultist for you Alpha Legion you guys gotta stop complaining" -Says the biggest idiot ever cause he cant read or doesnt care to pay attention

Disclaimer: this is not geared towards or directed at anyone at all.

**aka_mythos**

Brometheus wrote:
..and so Codex: Havocs begins, not unlike Codex: Long Fangs.

Shame!

The difference between using Flakk havocs and Long Fangs is that its in direct response to one particular type of unit that Chaos is otherwise limited in its capacity to counter. Long Fangs are a versitile and flexible unit capable of a unique ability. Flakk is something other armies will eventually have to counter what every army will eventually have, flyers.

**lucasbuffalo**

http://memecrunch.com/meme/9WPX/lol-phil-kelly

Something I made for laughs.

I actually like the chaos book, just couldn't resist

**HoverBoy**

Wrakkar wrote:
YOU ALL KNOW THAT DAMNED DRAGON IS AWESOME!!!!

True, well except for, you know... the model.
But i suspect that the same kind of players that use chibihawks will use the aborted transformer as well.

**Sephyr**

Praxiss wrote:

I think people are still giving flyers a lot more credit than they're due.I have played a few games with and against them and, at least in my experience, they are not as game breakign as everyen seems to think they are.

It depends on your meta and the army in question. A single StormRaven or Valkyrie zooming about? Tricky, but manageable.

3 Vendettas tossing 9 twin-linked lascannons at your pricey stuff a turn when your whole air defense is a quad-gun manned by a fire Dragon.....

The CSM codex seems to be a good balance. At most it gets 5 flyers from the book (leaving out allies), with 2 Daemon Princes and 3 dragons, but that is hideously costly point-wise and leaves you with almost no measure against AV13 and higher.

At the same time, between the Dragon's better-than-average vector strike, flakk missiles and so on, Chaos gets a respectable amount of anti-air...though not as good as massed necron infantry just rapid-firing flyers from the ground.

**Kanluwen**

Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:
Did no one read 'Legion'???

Alpha legion does not use cult troops!! Please stop getting this wrong. Nor are cult troops a fix for them not being reped in the new codex!!

Yes- Alpha Legion used some Humans. But they used Special Op humans, the nest of best in human term, Fething Navy SEAL humans. Not a bunch of dumb mind freaked humans. They used a few very highly skilled very highly effect humans that could get things done.

"OH a blob of cultist for you Alpha Legion you guys gotta stop complaining" -Says the biggest idiot ever cause he cant read or doesnt care to pay attention

Disclaimer: this is not geared towards or directed at anyone at all.

Plenty of people read "Legion".

However, what they also realize is that the Alpha Legion of today is not the Alpha Legion of the Great Crusade/Heresy era.

They can't get to the "best of the best". They can get to the masses of disgruntled, illiterate, uneducated citizens though.

**aka_mythos**

Kanluwen wrote:
Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:
Did no one read 'Legion'???

Alpha legion does not use cult troops!! Please stop getting this wrong. Nor are cult troops a fix for them not being reped in the new codex!!

Yes- Alpha Legion used some Humans. But they used Special Op humans, the nest of best in human term, Fething Navy SEAL humans. Not a bunch of dumb mind freaked humans. They used a few very highly skilled very highly effect humans that could get things done.

"OH a blob of cultist for you Alpha Legion you guys gotta stop complaining" -Says the biggest idiot ever cause he cant read or doesnt care to pay attention

Disclaimer: this is not geared towards or directed at anyone at all.

Plenty of people read "Legion".

However, what they also realize is that the Alpha Legion of today is not the Alpha Legion of the Great Crusade/Heresy era.

They can't get to the "best of the best". They can get to the masses of disgruntled, illiterate, uneducated citizens though.

Even still if they are getting the "best of best" at that point it would probably be best represented with Allies - Imperial Guard.

**Kanluwen**

Ayup, and it's not like the Alpha Legion having both highly trained and meatshield varieties of cultists is that uncommon.

Look at Vraks. The Alpha Legion were a big part of organizing that fiasco, and they ensured that not only the PDF turned but masses of workers who were used as disposable troops.

**Mr. Balloon Hands**

Kanluwen wrote:
Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:
Did no one read 'Legion'???

Alpha legion does not use cult troops!! Please stop getting this wrong. Nor are cult troops a fix for them not being reped in the new codex!!

Yes- Alpha Legion used some Humans. But they used Special Op humans, the nest of best in human term, Fething Navy SEAL humans. Not a bunch of dumb mind freaked humans. They used a few very highly skilled very highly effect humans that could get things done.

"OH a blob of cultist for you Alpha Legion you guys gotta stop complaining" -Says the biggest idiot ever cause he cant read or doesnt care to pay attention

Disclaimer: this is not geared towards or directed at anyone at all.

Plenty of people read "Legion".

However, what they also realize is that the Alpha Legion of today is not the Alpha Legion of the Great Crusade/Heresy era.

They can't get to the "best of the best". They can get to the masses of disgruntled, illiterate, uneducated citizens though.

I beg to differ. The Alpha Legion today can, and I believe for the most part from the background history we know, still be seen as the Alpha Legion form the great Crusade. Now this is MHO and the view I gather from what i read in all BL books. It just really grinds my gear when i hear that cultists are a fix.

Disclaimer: I never said that I herd people on dakka say that cultist are a fix

**Kanluwen**

Except all the background history we have for the Alpha Legion of today is that they're moustache twirling loons...much to Alpharius' dismay.

**Sigvatr**

Sooo...any way you can get CSM troops with flakk rockets?

**bogalubov**

Sigvatr wrote:
Sooo...any way you can get CSM troops with flakk rockets?

Nope. Flakk is not an option for non-havoc missile launchers.

**Sigvatr**

bogalubov wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Sooo...any way you can get CSM troops with flakk rockets?

Nope. Flakk is not an option for non-havoc missile launchers.

Not even with a special HQ or some stuff? Crap!

**blood reaper**

Hulksmash wrote:
Except that if you play a player with a Dragon and the Bale Flamer thing you'll lose that Havoc squad before it gets to shoot. And 5-man squads tend to get put down from even Necron or Ork flyers. That discounts your opponent trying to take them out early for dominance of the sky. Not sure it's going to be just like Long Fangs for 5th.

Then never take five man Havoc squads? Take at least 8 or 10 men, five with Missiles, etc, plus an icon.