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 Onlinemph wrote:
I am loving this new codex.

I am painting up some Night Lords as I type.

Me to, just finnished my Lord ( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/478303.page ) and will continue to do the Hellbrute next. Think ill have the troops done after that and last chosen.

Night Lords rock.
Wonder if there is Night Lords specific rules in the book. Dunno if that has been confirmed or not. Woudl be cool with some night fighting specials or some kind of precognitive ability as the fluff says many inherited this trait from their primarch.

Since a few of us have mentioned the Night Lords recently... any word on traitor legion (NightLords, IronWarriors, Etc...) Force org chart shenanigans? As a Night Lords player I would love to see an option to use Raptors as troops so I could use a pair of Warp Talons squads and one Dragon in Fast attack. I'm sure that the Iron Warriors boys would die for the ability to feild Devistators in another slot as well...

Srsly tho, we get that its cool that Cult units in Elite's can become troops, how about some leak love for us Traitor legions players?

Yeah I'm guessing the drake doesn't have vector dancer. But can't complain, if the dark eldar razorwing doesn't have it, the drake shouldn't either

True...

Least the Heldrake has Meteroic Descent and can hover


I'm gonna enjoy smashing into the side of a Night Sythce with this bad boy




( I can't spell Sythce to save my life ¬¬)

 Gravity wrote:
Wonder if there is Night Lords specific rules in the book. Dunno if that has been confirmed or not. Woudl be cool with some night fighting specials or some kind of precognitive ability as the fluff says many inherited this trait from their primarch.

No night vision and sorcerers can't take divination. Have fun.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Gravity wrote:
Wonder if there is Night Lords specific rules in the book. Dunno if that has been confirmed or not. Woudl be cool with some night fighting specials or some kind of precognitive ability as the fluff says many inherited this trait from their primarch.

No night vision and sorcerers can't take divination. Have fun.

Guess I'll have to have fun anyway!

Each codex brings us something different.

I can't wait to get the new book and roll out my death guard again. Been playing warmachine while 40k was "Grey-Wolf 40,0000". Possibly dig out and reassemble my lost and the damned.

So much great stuff like the restrictions on cult units and new daemon engines. We all (the ones trying to argue on a base) compare it to 3.5. This is 40k 6th edition, not 3.5. That being said, it looks like I'll be able to make an old school Nurgle mono god list with appropriate daemons just fine.

So far, this is so much nicer than the 4th piece of garbage.

Tyrs13 wrote:
Yea i think the Ksons are at a good place we got the 1 thing fixed that needed fixing, the price of our sorcerers.

No, SNP was the one thing that needed fixing. It has absolutely no benefit to the squad in 6th, and was priced with 5th in mind. Seems now that Kelly never copped onto that since the unit is the exact same.

And Bromtheus, please stop grasping at straws to make 1k Sons better mate. We've seen their rules. They don't have Relentless. Besides, I thought you said they were a good unit, so why keep grasping?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:
Yea i think the Ksons are at a good place we got the 1 thing fixed that needed fixing, the price of our sorcerers.

No, SNP was the one thing that needed fixing. It has absolutely no benefit to the squad in 6th, and was priced with 5th in mind. Seems now that Kelly never copped onto that since the unit is the exact same.

And Bromtheus, please stop grasping at straws to make 1k Sons better mate. We've seen their rules. They don't have Relentless. Besides, I thought you said they were a good unit, so why keep grasping?

Slow & Purposfull=Relentless+No Sprint&overwatch...

Also the sorcerors gets their powers for free.

 Gravity wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Gravity wrote:
Wonder if there is Night Lords specific rules in the book. Dunno if that has been confirmed or not. Woudl be cool with some night fighting specials or some kind of precognitive ability as the fluff says many inherited this trait from their primarch.

No night vision and sorcerers can't take divination. Have fun.

Guess I'll have to have fun anyway!

no force org changes for night lords/iron warriors/alpha/or word bearers sadly

 Exergy wrote:
no force org changes for night lords/iron warriors/alpha/or word bearers sadly

For them representation is in the eye of the beholder. I think there is alot for everyone to play with.

Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:
Yea i think the Ksons are at a good place we got the 1 thing fixed that needed fixing, the price of our sorcerers.

No, SNP was the one thing that needed fixing. It has absolutely no benefit to the squad in 6th, and was priced with 5th in mind. Seems now that Kelly never copped onto that since the unit is the exact same.

And Bromtheus, please stop grasping at straws to make 1k Sons better mate. We've seen their rules. They don't have Relentless. Besides, I thought you said they were a good unit, so why keep grasping?

Slow & Purposfull=Relentless+No Sprint&overwatch...

Also the sorcerors gets their powers for free.

A few things you clearly don't understand;

- Bromtheus is grasping at straws saying maybe they will have the Relentless rule, not as part of SnP.

- Regardless, the only benefit they gain from having Relentless is being able to shoot and still charge, but they are a unit that does not want to charge. So all SnP does is stop them from running and using overwatch, and yet they still pay through the nose.

- Sorcerers getting a free randomly rolled power; so what? What has that got to do with SnP? Nothing. SnP is a massive detriment to the squad, and either that needed to be lifted or their points needed to be dropped for them to be a viable competitive unit.

So new codex has bloodcrushers as cavalry - does this spill over to the chaos daemon list?

 Exergy wrote:

no force org changes for night lords/iron warriors/alpha/or word bearers sadly

for shame... if anything they are defined by force org changes and reemphasis... World eaters and Alpha Legion are easier to work around. Easily worth a pair of characters imho (Heck the warpsmith should be the new Warsmith in all reality... I guess Iron Warriors just need to be happy they have Allies to work in.) Night Lords however could easily be fixed with a character or Chaos lord upgrade option... smells of lazy design, allies can't fix the NightLord design hole.

 felixcat wrote:

So new codex has bloodcrushers as cavalry - does this spill over to the chaos daemon list?

Not until there is an errata.

 felixcat wrote:

So new codex has bloodcrushers as cavalry - does this spill over to the chaos daemon list?

Probably not until the Daemons get their new books in a few more months... But it could be a little hint of things to come!

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Just saw on Faeit blog this;

70pts for 2 plus champ then 20 each
not sure where this goes......
there are god specific steeds than give different bonuses e.g. +2 wounds, +1 attack for Nurgle one

Now i suppose that this is an error, because else this would be too good...

Bikers With MoK,IoK on Juggers..., a dream come true...

But i really think its a mix up with the wargear section, after all we din't see the Bikes entry...

That would be fantastic if true, however even if it doesn't come to pass I will be buying a unit of Bloodcrushers. Can't resist having Juggernaut Cavalry!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:
Yea i think the Ksons are at a good place we got the 1 thing fixed that needed fixing, the price of our sorcerers.

No, SNP was the one thing that needed fixing. It has absolutely no benefit to the squad in 6th, and was priced with 5th in mind. Seems now that Kelly never copped onto that since the unit is the exact same.

And Bromtheus, please stop grasping at straws to make 1k Sons better mate. We've seen their rules. They don't have Relentless. Besides, I thought you said they were a good unit, so why keep grasping?

Slow & Purposfull=Relentless+No Sprint&overwatch...

Also the sorcerors gets their powers for free.

A few things you clearly don't understand;

- Bromtheus is grasping at straws saying maybe they will have the Relentless rule, not as part of SnP.

- Regardless, the only benefit they gain from having Relentless is being able to shoot and still charge, but they are a unit that does not want to charge. So all SnP does is stop them from running and using overwatch, and yet they still pay through the nose.

- Sorcerers getting a free randomly rolled power; so what? What has that got to do with SnP? Nothing. SnP is a massive detriment to the squad, and either that needed to be lifted or their points needed to be dropped for them to be a viable competitive unit.

True, true, but din't they get a point drop?, like going from 29 points to 21 or something?, it not huge but its still enough to buy more options in your list.

While even if they don't get overwatch they never had something the like anyway.

In substance they win almost nothing with the new dex, but they loss even less, they stay the same(apart for cost drop).

So yeah Brometheus is a bit too enthusiast, but its better then being a bitter Kill joy no?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Just saw on Faeit blog this;

70pts for 2 plus champ then 20 each
not sure where this goes......
there are god specific steeds than give different bonuses e.g. +2 wounds, +1 attack for Nurgle one

Now i suppose that this is an error, because else this would be too good...

Bikers With MoK,IoK on Juggers..., a dream come true...

But i really think its a mix up with the wargear section, after all we din't see the Bikes entry...

That would be fantastic if true, however even if it doesn't come to pass I will be buying a unit of Bloodcrushers. Can't resist having Juggernaut Cavalry!

Might work if Chosen can take stuf from the Gods rewards..., a Chosen Juggers cavaly...mmh

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

1) sub 2k games are the norm, lets be honest about this...

2) Night Lords and Iron Warriors are defined as niche lists with an over emphasis on one style of special combat. FOC slot shenanigans are what they do.
Looking at the leaks to date we have:
-Black Legion will always have Abbadon who now makes his Chosen Troops
-Alpha Legion got their new cultist troops this edition
-Word Bearers got their Dark Apostles
-World Eaters, Death Guard, Emp Children and 1k Sons are all covered by 2 viable HQ choices making Cult Marines troops...

This leaves the only 2 kids out of the pool as Night Lords and Iron Warriors... I don't make a huge squabble about Iron Warriors because the Warp Smith is a decent try, and IG allies very much expand the armory to make fluffy list design possible even under 2k.

So this just leaves Night Lords, with 3(arguably 4 but CSM Bikes are long forgotten) defining units all cuddled up in the same force org slot. It just seems like bad design or an inability to use a checklist of what the model range they already make and need to support.. And it seems a damn shame to make new raptors and introduce a new unit type of warp talons and not give them FOC mobility to see them played more. Seriously is Raptors as troops that darn scary? I very much don't want to be the guy playing Night Lords out of the Blood Angels codex, i resisted it for all of 5th I dont want to resist it though 6th as well.

 edweird wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

1) sub 2k games are the norm, lets be honest about this...

2) Night Lords and Iron Warriors are defined as niche lists with an over emphasis on one style of special combat. FOC slot shenanigans are what they do.
Looking at the leaks to date we have:
-Black Legion will always have Abbadon who now makes his Chosen Troops
-Alpha Legion got their new cultist troops this edition
-Word Bearers got their Dark Apostles
-World Eaters, Death Guard, Emp Children and 1k Sons are all covered by 2 viable HQ choices making Cult Marines troops...

This leaves the only 2 kids out of the pool as Night Lords and Iron Warriors... I don't make a huge squabble about Iron Warriors because the Warp Smith is a decent try, and IG allies very much expand the armory to make fluffy list design possible even under 2k.

So this just leaves Night Lords, with 3(arguably 4 but CSM Bikes are long forgotten) defining units all cuddled up in the same force org slot. It just seems like bad design or an inability to use a checklist of what the model range they already make and need to support.. And it seems a damn shame to make new raptors and introduce a new unit type of warp talons and not give them FOC mobility to see them played more. Seriously is Raptors as troops that darn scary? I very much don't want to be the guy playing Night Lords out of the Blood Angels codex, i resisted it for all of 5th I dont want to resist it though 6th as well.

Sorry but no joy here.

Iron warriors got a good bit of love with siege engines, warpsmiths, allies from IG for MASSIVE DAKKA, and fortifications.

Night lords are not just night vision and raptors as troops. While agreed that raptors should be scoring units in a night lords army, everything I've read about night lords suggests a heavy tactical squad presence in their warbands. 30 raptors backed up by another 30 tacticals is still a fairly fluffy force for night lords. Raptors aren't supposed to be troops, they're too flighty and whimsical in the head to simply stand on an objective, thats why you bring raptors to kill and CSMs to hold.

Yes you get no night vision, because no marines get night vision. Sorry but they changed how night fight works and I'm not complaining about it anymore.

On a completely unrelated note

Relentless - "Relentless models can shoot with heavy, salvo or ordnance weapons, counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire heavy, ordnance, rapid fire or salvo weapons."

Slow and Purposeful - "[C]annot run, perform sweeping advances or fire overwatch. They can however shoot with heavy, salvo, and ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire heavy, ordnance, rapid fire or salvo weapons."

Okay outside of no being able to run, sweeping advance or fire overwatch S&P DOES include Relentless.

In fact now Rubrics are even better because S&P is no longer moving through difficult terrain, you simply get 6 inches. Also it appears that Rubrics no longer default to d6 inches without their sorcerer so now they just move like everyone else.

How in fact are Rubrics not better than 4/5th ed? I mean I know some people are crying cause they can't AP 3 overwatch. Well time to sack up. If you're playing rubrics for AP 3 you're not real chaos. Real chaos remembers when inferno bolts only came with characters and had the blast quality and were only AP 5. Everyone calls out for the 3.5 ed codex yet now rubrics are far better than they were then.

We han't seen all the options for the Chaos Lord yet.

Are we 100% sure that givnig a Lord a jump pack does nothing to affect anything else?

With loyalists putting your captain on a bike makes bikes troop/scoring after all.

 edweird wrote:

1) sub 2k games are the norm, lets be honest about this...

2) Night Lords and Iron Warriors are defined as niche lists with an over emphasis on one style of special combat. FOC slot shenanigans are what they do.
Looking at the leaks to date we have:
-Black Legion will always have Abbadon who now makes his Chosen Troops
-Alpha Legion got their new cultist troops this edition
-Word Bearers got their Dark Apostles
-World Eaters, Death Guard, Emp Children and 1k Sons are all covered by 2 viable HQ choices making Cult Marines troops...

This leaves the only 2 kids out of the pool as Night Lords and Iron Warriors... I don't make a huge squabble about Iron Warriors because the Warp Smith is a decent try, and IG allies very much expand the armory to make fluffy list design possible even under 2k.

So this just leaves Night Lords, with 3(arguably 4 but CSM Bikes are long forgotten) defining units all cuddled up in the same force org slot. It just seems like bad design or an inability to use a checklist of what the model range they already make and need to support.. And it seems a damn shame to make new raptors and introduce a new unit type of warp talons and not give them FOC mobility to see them played more. Seriously is Raptors as troops that darn scary? I very much don't want to be the guy playing Night Lords out of the Blood Angels codex, i resisted it for all of 5th I dont want to resist it though 6th as well.

Night Lords & Iron Warriors are a balance issue plain and simple.

For example, no one thinks BA's having Assault Marines as Troops is OTT/OP because the rest of their army isn't full of super scary crap like cult troops, cheaper termies, daemon engines & daemonic allies.
Imagine now for example, a CSM army with Raptors as Troops, backed up by a Daemon Prince, Noise Marines, Oblits, Helldrake & Cultist hordes!
Or how about, god forbid, an Iron Warriors army that has Havoc Troops, backed up by T5 termies, Warp talons, Daemon engines & IG allies?!

Giving NL's & IW's FOC swaping shinanigans would send up back to the dark days of the super abusable, WAAC's options of the 3.5 codex. I'd personally like to think GW has learned their lesson and moved on from that mess!

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Also the sorcerors gets their powers for free.

I would honestly rather keep paying 15 points for a roll on Biomancy than be forced to take a Tzeentch power.

Why do people all seem to think Night Lords are all about "LOLRAPTORS"? They have Jump Troops, but they aren't that big of a recurring theme with Night Lords. Night Lords are famous for scare tactics, night fighting, and guerilla warfare. Not tons of jump-pack wearing assault squads. If they wanted to give Night Lords a presence in the rules, they should have given them night fighting and fear, not Raptors as troops.

 lunarman wrote:
Knightly, I agree with you.

SR are 200 points and Valks are 130.

This dragon is about as good as a valk, but no better imho.
It should be 130 not 170. At 130 then it would be worth taking.

Don't even get me started on SR. For 30 points more you get more armour, more guns, more transport capacity, more options.

Problem is we have to take some anti flier and our HS slot are too overfilled to take havoks...

Seeing as how the Valkyrie is underpriced by about 30/40 points and the SR (while pointed correctly but gets too cheap of upgrades) I don't see the dragon as being overpriced. Especially when you look at the DE and ork flyers and the cost of most FMCs.

Same kind of goes for Iron Warriors to a degree.

They are all about big guns and daemon engines. Now we have the Warpsmith, we have daemon engines in a wider variety of flavours, and if we want big(ger) guns we can bring in a posse of IG allies with Medusa/Bassies/manticores.

 edweird wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

1) sub 2k games are the norm, lets be honest about this...

2) Night Lords and Iron Warriors are defined as niche lists with an over emphasis on one style of special combat. FOC slot shenanigans are what they do.
Looking at the leaks to date we have:
-Black Legion will always have Abbadon who now makes his Chosen Troops
-Alpha Legion got their new cultist troops this edition
-Word Bearers got their Dark Apostles
-World Eaters, Death Guard, Emp Children and 1k Sons are all covered by 2 viable HQ choices making Cult Marines troops...

This leaves the only 2 kids out of the pool as Night Lords and Iron Warriors... I don't make a huge squabble about Iron Warriors because the Warp Smith is a decent try, and IG allies very much expand the armory to make fluffy list design possible even under 2k.

So this just leaves Night Lords, with 3(arguably 4 but CSM Bikes are long forgotten) defining units all cuddled up in the same force org slot. It just seems like bad design or an inability to use a checklist of what the model range they already make and need to support.. And it seems a damn shame to make new raptors and introduce a new unit type of warp talons and not give them FOC mobility to see them played more. Seriously is Raptors as troops that darn scary? I very much don't want to be the guy playing Night Lords out of the Blood Angels codex, i resisted it for all of 5th I dont want to resist it though 6th as well.

My area's current "meta" is 2k seems like the happy place for playing 6th edition. I should have added "YMMV".

 Jayden63 wrote:

 lunarman wrote:
Knightly, I agree with you.

SR are 200 points and Valks are 130.

This dragon is about as good as a valk, but no better imho.
It should be 130 not 170. At 130 then it would be worth taking.

Don't even get me started on SR. For 30 points more you get more armour, more guns, more transport capacity, more options.

Problem is we have to take some anti flier and our HS slot are too overfilled to take havoks...

Seeing as how the Valkyrie is underpriced by about 30/40 points and the SR (while pointed correctly but gets too cheap of upgrades) I don't see the dragon as being underpriced. Especially when you look at the DE and ork flyers and the cost of most FMCs.

Underpriced? How do you mean? That's it's price, right there in the book... Guard's 6th ed codex is long way off, and whether or not you feel the Valk is cheap for what is does doesn't change the fact that is costs what it does and therefore the game is affected by it. As a result, new codices should be aimed at the actual power level in the game (and not a power lvl that might appear in 1-2 years when Guard are redone).

Saying something is underpriced makes no sense to me, because things change so slowly and people take what's good. Chaos will fight against a 6 flier IG army and 9 flier necron armies and they need the tools to take them out. But if our dragon is 170 pts, then I can see us never winning that fight.

On actual stats comparison with the SR.
SR has:
+ 1 bs
+2 Rear Armour
+ Melta Protection
+ Dread Carrier
+ Troop Carrier
+ Assault Vehicle
+ Power of the Machine Spirit
(Let's equate vector strike and Missiles. Although vector strike is weaker, it's autohitting and means two targets damaged a turn by the dragon)
(Let's equate a lascannon and hades autocannon, although a TL las is probably better....)
- 5++ save (basically unreliable for survival)
- IWND (again, cannot be relied upon for survival)
- Daemonforge (Rather niche but handy ability. I'd not say it was worth any points though, I'd rather BS4 any day)

I really want to buy 2 Dragons for my army. I just don't want to buy them without someone telling me they'll be worth every point :(

I see the roles of the Dragon completely differently from many of the other flyers. Most flyers suffer from lack of offensive output or are compromised by being a transport and gunboat but the Dragon is pretty pure.

I see the Dragon as an engine of destruction. I'd happily take the St6 AP3 Torrent Flamer (I already love throwing fire with my hellhounds & dreadknights) for killing swathes of marines while vector striking other flyers or vehicles.

The problem with many flyers, the necrons included, is that they will rarely recoup their points thru damage. The dragon can do it in a single phase. Personally I'm picking up to to support my likely mostly foot based list.