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I like the night lord conversion pack, but only if one is able to make all of the cool little lightning to offset the bat wings.

I also found out that my cousin ordered me one of the limited edition CSM codex. What a total bro.

Does anyone have any information on how transforming into a daemon prince actually works? I assume it is just a plain daemon prince with no upgrades that uou get, regardless of what the character originally was. Fully kitted lord being replaced with a naked prince is not necessarily desirable.

I'm sure it's explained a bit better in the full table; the one we saw is only a summary.

Obviously. I was just wondering whether someone had seen that full table.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Onlinemph wrote:
Do you think it would be worth getting the Night Lords conversion pack, or should I just convert it myself?

It looks rather nice.

Instead of that, buy some of these instead. I just found this site and am planning on getting around $50 worth of conversion parts for my world eaters.
Some sweet Night Lords shoulder pads:
http://puppetswar.com/product.php?id_product=146

They also have Terminator sized ones too!

I have am using them for my Anubis Theemed Army, just expext 4 week delivery times [I do live on the left coast though]

 Extreaminatus wrote:

I have no idea why people are poo-pooing on the Noise Marines so much. They're going to be so good this edition, certainly not going to shy away from taking as many units as I can.

I think most people are either unpleasently surprised, or else they're being over-entitled prats that you can longer take the 'fluffy' 6 man squad and get a Blastmaster for them.

For myself, I'm very slightly disgruntled because I'd model up 2 of those 6-man squads to just sit in the backfield and plug away with a S8/ap3 blast marker... But I get that with the shots now ignoring cover AND a substancial pts drop, that would be stupid to allow us to continue spaming that option.

However, it means that I now have to;
a) double the size of my one squad upto 12 men to keep with the theme.
b) shelve my second squad and start from scratch on them - probably going to change them to 6 strong w/Sonic Blasters and cruise around in a Rhino!

I simply can't combine my two existing squads because they'll horrible together to the whole 'evil knights' theme I've got going with my army.

A combined noise marine and Tzeench army gives me chills.

Slannesh Lord and Ahriman, infiltrate D3 Noise marine units so they are in 24 the first turn, 1-2 thousand sons units for the sorcerers and the AP 3 bolters and you got a wall of death from 24 inches onwards.

Or Tzzench Nurgle, Typhus for plague zombies combined with Thousand sons and Plague Marines, sorcerer/ahriman for the psychic powers. Have to see what typhuss looks like he gives the entire army fear which is situational at best. Pity tzeench and nurgle hate each other.......

Dont know enough about Khorne to see how they would combo, but the offensive power of khorne combined with nurgles defensive nature would be interesting to see on the table. Khorne and Slannesh would be great back ups for each other but fluff will prevent that.

Slannesh Nurgle would be interesting, however I think them both being semi static and nurgle being defensive, the shortening off offensive power might be a problem,

Combo armies look like they could do really well, pity theme keeps me in check. Still if they come out with FW noise marines(later in the heresy) my second kidney is going on the market after the first one hopefully covers all the primarch models.

A unit of 12 Noise marines with the icon and a blast master, or possibly a unit of 6 with a doom siren in a rhino for that flamery CC goodness. 33 shots from regular marines(possibly at +1 strength from the psychic power) that ignore cover so 22 hits, without the +1 strength that is still is still 15 wounds against GEQ? that ignore cover. What Tyranid. Ork, guard, or any real horde army can deal with wounds at that rate PER UNIT. Now that unit of 12 is probably about 225 points, still, throw down three of those with the blastmaster and I think you will have a very scary army that has a strong anti horde solution(which I predict will start to become a solid strategy in the next couple of months as the meta evolves). More guys than your enemy has bullets is not necessarily a bad strategy, with objectives being the primary goal of most missions, having a tough scoring unit that can put out the hurt will be quite an asset.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Onlinemph wrote:
Do you think it would be worth getting the Night Lords conversion pack, or should I just convert it myself?

It looks rather nice.

Instead of that, buy some of these instead. I just found this site and am planning on getting around $50 worth of conversion parts for my world eaters.
Some sweet Night Lords shoulder pads:
http://puppetswar.com/product.php?id_product=146

They also have Terminator sized ones too!

I have am using them for my Anubis Theemed Army, just expext 4 week delivery times [I do live on the left coast though]

Oh nice, well my primary place of residence is in California (I go to Austin for college) so this is really good to know.

I'm definitely planning on ordering a set of the Planet Devourer shoulder pads:
http://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=148

I also LOVE their daemon weapons! They remind of the chaos weapons from Slaves to Darkness
Axes: http://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=139
Swords: http://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=138

I was going to buy some Cataphracti Terminators from Forgeworld and then arm them with those demon weapons since they're so cool looking.

 Leth wrote:

Dont know enough about Khorne to see how they would combo, but the offensive power of khorne combined with nurgles defensive nature would be interesting to see on the table. Khorne and Slannesh would be great back ups for each other but fluff will prevent that.

Khorne is going to be brutal this edition I feel. Considering that for a troops choice you can just get normal marines, drop their bolter for a bp+ccw, and give them the Mark of Khorne, they come out to 15 points per model and you have 4 attacks on the charge/3 countercharging.

Khorne Berzerkers sound fantastic. Granted their starting price of 105 for 5 is a much higher charge, but they are also fearless and have furious charge standard, plus the aforementioned MoK.

Since it's been noted that both Mutilators and Obliterators can get marks, I'm feeling a squad or 2 of Mutilators with the Mark of Khorne would be insane. Have 2 attacks standard+1 for 2 close combat weapons+2 for rage is going to be deadly. That's 5 chainfist or whatever attacks on the charge per model!

Also Obliterators are rumored to be only 1 point more than their current incarnation WITH the Mark of Nurgle included...sickening. This means that Instant Death is no longer a huge fear for them. Now that they have Assault Cannons I'm not so worried about them not being able to summon the same weapon twice in two turns, since Assault Cannons are statistically better at penetrating AV14 than Lascannons! And if you have 2+ save spam then you summon up some Plasma Cannons one turn, and then Lascannons or Assault Cannons the next turn.

I'm definitely feeling a Khorne/Nurgle mix for my new World Eaters warband. However I'm going to be counting all of the Nurgle stuff as the Arco-Gladiators.

 Leth wrote:
A combined noise marine and Tzeench army gives me chills.

Slannesh Lord and Ahriman, infiltrate D3 Noise marine units so they are in 24 the first turn, 1-2 thousand sons units for the sorcerers and the AP 3 bolters and you got a wall of death from 24 inches onwards.

Or Tzzench Nurgle, Typhus for plague zombies combined with Thousand sons and Plague Marines, sorcerer/ahriman for the psychic powers. Have to see what typhuss looks like he gives the entire army fear which is situational at best. Pity tzeench and nurgle hate each other.......

Combo armies look like they could do really well, pity theme keeps me in check. Still if they come out with FW noise marines(later in the heresy) my second kidney is going on the market after the first one hopefully covers all the primarch models.

Dont know enough about Khorne to see how they would combo, but the offensive power of khorne combined with nurgles defensive nature would be interesting to see on the table. Khorne and Slannesh would be great back ups for each other but fluff will prevent that.

I like the Slaanesh/Tzeentch idea, though it would be expensive.

O yea, each of those units is probably going to run you 200ish on average(if you go for your sacred numbers LIKE YOU SHOULD) But thats maybe a 1000 points in troops that are actually going to make solid contributions to the game. maybe 400 points in characters and spend the remaining 450 or so on long range anti tank/anti flier. Which i think is almost enough for 3 hades fiends. or work in a aegis with quadgun(cause why not you are usually going to have an objective in your deployment zone to protect anyway) and maybe two dragons. Plenty of options to work with in this book from the look of things.

1400pts for just HQ and Troops is a lot though. I mean to get effective AA you are talking about 3 units made up of a combo of Helldrake and Flakk Havocs (same points). In an 1850pts list when combined with the Slaanesh Lord and Ahriman, you are talking about getting maybe 34 Troops on the board. That's a very small army.

Good number of troops that will contribute to the game, instead of just being there for the objective. Solid HQs that will contribute to the game. The actual meat of the army is contributing a substantial amount.

But it is still a ~40-50 model army, which is very small. Even Grey Knights armies could match that in numbers, and they would blow it off the board. Not a very fair comparison I'm sure as it is a more powerful book, but it doesn't change the fact you will face them sometime.

I'm not saying it is a bad army, just it has quite a few inherent flaws that would need working out. At 1999pts up though it could be quite potent.

Since it's been noted that both Mutilators and Obliterators can get marks, I'm feeling a squad or 2 of Mutilators with the Mark of Khorne would be insane. Have 2 attacks standard+1 for 2 close combat weapons+2 for rage is going to be deadly. That's 5 chainfist or whatever attacks on the charge per model!

Also Obliterators are rumored to be only 1 point more than their current incarnation WITH the Mark of Nurgle included...sickening. This means that Instant Death is no longer a huge fear for them. Now that they have Assault Cannons I'm not so worried about them not being able to summon the same weapon twice in two turns, since Assault Cannons are statistically better at penetrating AV14 than Lascannons! And if you have 2+ save spam then you summon up some Plasma Cannons one turn, and then Lascannons or Assault Cannons the next turn.

I'm definitely feeling a Khorne/Nurgle mix for my new World Eaters warband. However I'm going to be counting all of the Nurgle stuff as the Arco-Gladiators.

Curious about obliterators, how are the assault cannons statistically better at penetrating AV14 than lascannons? Also, do we know if they are going to have the daemon USR or is that still speculation? I know the grey knights FAQ classifies them as daemons, so I am curious.

They are, just by a miniscule amount barely worth mentioning.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
But it is still a ~40-50 model army, which is very small. Even Grey Knights armies could match that in numbers, and they would blow it off the board. Not a very fair comparison I'm sure as it is a more powerful book, but it doesn't change the fact you will face them sometime.

I'm not saying it is a bad army, just it has quite a few inherent flaws that would need working out. At 1999pts up though it could be quite potent.

O indeed, I was just throwing out an idea with basic ideas of the costs. However I am failing to see where grey knights would have the amazing advantage over the noise marines and thousand sons?

All points are allegedly until we see a codex

Thousand sons are 23 each
Noise Marines are 17 each
I am having the Grey knights with psybolt ammo are 22 each


At 24 inches: Gk is going to do .296 wounds
Psycannon is going to do 1.037 wounds
Noise Marine is going to do .333 wounds
Thousand Son is going to do .333 wounds

So for pure damage output per point, noise marines are way ahead and I would say that thousand sons are ahead if not close. Now there are things like cover and other factors such as psyker powers and terrrain. Who gets the drop first. But on a point per point basis I am not seeing how the Grey Knights are ahead in shooting. Combine that with the sorcerers powers or the blast master or heck even icons. All of these units should be in the 250 range with everything included, I think the Grey Knights should be 240, for 10. Tzeench should be 242 for 9, and the Noise marines should be 229 for 12 with blast master and Icon for the FNP. Now this is purely in shooting and the GK would win for the most part in close combat, but I still fail to see how the GKs would blow this army off the board.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
But it is still a ~40-50 model army, which is very small. Even Grey Knights armies could match that in numbers, and they would blow it off the board. Not a very fair comparison I'm sure as it is a more powerful book, but it doesn't change the fact you will face them sometime.

I'm not saying it is a bad army, just it has quite a few inherent flaws that would need working out. At 1999pts up though it could be quite potent.

you don't even have the codex yet its way too early to judge, if its as overpowered as the necrons are then it will just be the most unbeatable army in existance. Or it can be like dark eldar and be a top tier army.

Leth wrote:At 24 inches: Gk is going to do .296 wounds
Psycannon is going to do 1.037 wounds
Noise Marine is going to do .333 wounds
Thousand Son is going to do .333 wounds

That's great but either your math is wrong, you have forgotten some aspects of the rules (like the limited shots the Chaos units have either at range or on the move, both of which Grey Knights don't suffer), or you are assuming a less than good unit of Grey Knights. Grey Knights actually kill just over 3 on the move and just under 4 while stationary; your average unit is 10 with Psybolts and 2 Cannons for 240pts. The Noise Marines (10 with Sonics and Blastmaster) do just over 4, but only if they stay stationary. The Thousand Sons do just under 4. And this is only putting all of these units into a vacuum. More over, even the math you did present has the Grey Knights winning, yet for some reason you claim otherwise?

Taking the full lists proposed; at 1850pts that's a Slaanesh Lord, Ahriman, two units of Sons, two units of Noise, 3 Dragons. The Grey Knights list as standard is Coteaz, 2 units of Strikes, 1 of Purifiers, 2 Ravens, and 2 Knights, or at least where I'm from it is and that's what I use. The Grey Knights have better flyer support, better ground support (your army has its Troops and characters on the ground while the Grey Knights also have Dreadknights, which the Chaos army can't deal with effectively), can fire most of their weapons at full potential on the move which Chaos can't do (huge disadvantage), and Grey Knights are guaranteed Prescience, making that math above a whole lot more one-sided.

As someone that plays competitively, and plays both of these armies, I would put my confidence in the Grey Knights every time.

One thing a list like this does make me think though; I need to start getting Servo-Skulls back into my list.

 Marthike wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
But it is still a ~40-50 model army, which is very small. Even Grey Knights armies could match that in numbers, and they would blow it off the board. Not a very fair comparison I'm sure as it is a more powerful book, but it doesn't change the fact you will face them sometime.

I'm not saying it is a bad army, just it has quite a few inherent flaws that would need working out. At 1999pts up though it could be quite potent.

you don't even have the codex yet its way too early to judge, if its as overpowered as the necrons are then it will just be the most unbeatable army in existance. Or it can be like dark eldar and be a top tier army.

You really need to read more of what you are replying to mate.

Would it be legal to still choose cult units for elites if you have a correctly marked lord for a HQ? What about if all of your troop choices are already filled (with non-cult troops)

I am not going to get into the Math-hammer of the game, mainly because I tend to not really care Everytime I try to mathhammer a unit and I get one that the math should be great on, I fail miserably due to dice spitting in my face. At the same time I completely understand you guys wanting to. But honestly I won't be making any calls until this book is in my hands for a week or so. On a level playing field, GK might be better at shooting. But who knows! There might be some completely crazy/out of left field thing that changes it completely for the better or worse! I just think that any arguments right now DO have some credibility due to the pictures and scans, but I also think they are kinda pointless since we cannot fully explore the argument since no one has the book.

On a side note I think I would be happier to just see this codex come out like Dark Eldar than over powered to the extreme

 Benamint wrote:
But who knows! There might be some completely crazy/out of left field thing that changes it completely for the better or worse!

Chaos may just be able to say feth it to shooting, and smash gk in close combat.

As a staunch supporter of the prince of pleasure, I can say I fully respect the incredible amounts of death a Khorne berzerker charge unleashes. "Oh, you know the left flank of your army? 12 zerkers just hit it, and...its gone"

Mathhammer Smathhammer... I find math hammer people funny I also find them to be the worst opponents ... but when ladyluck steps out the door or their opponent uses tactics that crush them... I love the look in their eyes as they stare down at 500 dollars worth of Poorly Painted zipkicker infused goodtimes....

A couple guys at the local build their forces using calculators they still get the RMR.

Sorry I just think it ruins the entire ideas of good spirited game play.

 5deadly wrote:
Mathhammer Smathhammer... I find math hammer people funny I also find them to be the worst opponents ... but when ladyluck steps out the door or their opponent uses tactics that crush them... I love the look in their eyes as they stare down at 500 dollars worth of Poorly Painted zipkicker infused goodtimes....

A couple guys at the local build their forces using calculators they still get the RMR.

Sorry I just think it ruins the entire ideas of good spirited game play.

People need to stop putting math on a pedestal. Whether you think about it or not it exists, and it's not difficult, and it controls how effective your unit is. Knowledge of your units effectiveness extends to (gasp) statistics. It's just another skill to make you better at the game.

It's like there's some perception that people who know how to do math sacrifice their painting/modeling/spirit of the game/fluff-worthiness. If you can't handle both grade-school math and the narrative aspects of the hobby at the same time then I don't know what to tell you

 ph34r wrote:

 5deadly wrote:
Mathhammer Smathhammer... I find math hammer people funny I also find them to be the worst opponents ... but when ladyluck steps out the door or their opponent uses tactics that crush them... I love the look in their eyes as they stare down at 500 dollars worth of Poorly Painted zipkicker infused goodtimes....

A couple guys at the local build their forces using calculators they still get the RMR.

Sorry I just think it ruins the entire ideas of good spirited game play.

People need to stop putting math on a pedestal. Whether you think about it or not it exists, and it's not difficult, and it controls how effective your unit is. Knowledge of your units effectiveness extends to (gasp) statistics. It's just another skill to make you better at the game.

It's like there's some perception that people who know how to do math sacrifice their painting/modeling/spirit of the game/fluff-worthiness. If you can't handle both grade-school math and the narrative aspects of the hobby at the same time then I don't know what to tell you

I'm on the Anti-Mathammer Bandwagon

I can't wait for the codex! I'm so exited. this is my first codex release since i started playing and I am going to play the army (well my gf is.) She gets to paint them though :/ it's all good though. I just want that codex!

 Anpu42 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
People need to stop putting math on a pedestal. Whether you think about it or not it exists, and it's not difficult, and it controls how effective your unit is. Knowledge of your units effectiveness extends to (gasp) statistics. It's just another skill to make you better at the game.

It's like there's some perception that people who know how to do math sacrifice their painting/modeling/spirit of the game/fluff-worthiness. If you can't handle both grade-school math and the narrative aspects of the hobby at the same time then I don't know what to tell you

I'm on the Anti-Mathammer Bandwagon

I'll set an example I don't like plasma... I'd rather run melta. Now while plasma might give me some advantage I really don't care.. I run meltas and melta or flamer combis.
I wouldn't buy a model I didn't like because of the math equation it would produce. I like what models I paint and play with.

I also use strategy and I'm a tactician... and to be brutally honest not the kinda tactician who turns a Maulerfiend sideways at deployment to ensure a charge. I call that bending the rules to get an advantage.
Maths not a problem its people who play to win at any cost that's the problem. You might call it whiny I call it playing with integrity.
When I stomp out some sucka he knows he got stomped out by the best. Not math hammer or poor sportsmanship in the form of bending the rules for the sake of winning. I find those opponents to be the worst and wont waste my time giving them a second game.
And word gets around quick when you play like that. End up hardpressed for an opponent.

 5deadly wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
People need to stop putting math on a pedestal. Whether you think about it or not it exists, and it's not difficult, and it controls how effective your unit is. Knowledge of your units effectiveness extends to (gasp) statistics. It's just another skill to make you better at the game.

It's like there's some perception that people who know how to do math sacrifice their painting/modeling/spirit of the game/fluff-worthiness. If you can't handle both grade-school math and the narrative aspects of the hobby at the same time then I don't know what to tell you

I'm on the Anti-Mathammer Bandwagon

I'll set an example I don't like plasma... I'd rather run melta. Now while plasma might give me some advantage I really don't care.. I run meltas and melta or flamer combis.
I wouldn't buy a model I didn't like because of the math equation it would produce. I like what models I paint and play with.

I also use strategy and I'm a tactician... and to be brutally honest not the kinda tactician who turns a Maulerfiend sideways at deployment to ensure a charge. I call that bending the rules to get an advantage.
Maths not a problem its people who play to win at any cost that's the problem. You might call it whiny I call it playing with integrity.
When I stomp out some sucka he knows he got stomped out by the best. Not math hammer or poor sportsmanship in the form of bending the rules for the sake of winning. I find those opponents to be the worst and wont waste my time giving them a second game.
And word gets around quick when you play like that. End up hardpressed for an opponent.

THIS THIS THIS! Same way I play Win by good generalship and nothing more or less! But i can understand mathhammer. Now could we keep this on the Chaos dex please?

Nice to hear... and agreed

Any cult specific wargear listed besides the typical plague knifel, sonic weapons?

Can someone break down a warpsmiths capabilities to me?

I feel like you lumped way to many things/people into one wad right there. I play primarily, actually almost exclusively as a casual gamer and I paint and model the most. Yet I appreciate having a good grasp on thew capability of a unit. Saying that number crunching is poor play is simply stupid, I'm sorry but it is. Basically your saying it's OK for a guy to learn by making 100 poor charges, not understanding his units potential and limits, but that the guy across the room who understands the odds of him winning certain match ups is TFG?.... I don't want to put words in your mouth but this is basically what I get from your post.

Sorry but to quote Obi Won.... "only a syth deals in absolutes!" There definitely is a comfortable medium here. I do agree that looking at a situation solely by the numbers is also poor, heck the Vietnam war was run by numbers and look how that turned out, but saying it's lame for someone to do their homework is equally stupid IMO.

Benamint wrote:But who knows! There might be some completely crazy/out of left field thing that changes it completely for the better or worse! I just think that any arguments right now DO have some credibility due to the pictures and scans, but I also think they are kinda pointless since we cannot fully explore the argument since no one has the book.

No, nobody you know has the book. Where do you think rumours come from? Most of us know enough to build full lists by now. And no, there's no catches. Apparently there's wishlisting though.

Eidolon wrote:Chaos may just be able to say feth it to shooting, and smash gk in close combat.

Simply, no. 40k is a shooting game, the Codex doesn't change that.

 5deadly wrote:
Mathhammer Smathhammer... I find math hammer people funny I also find them to be the worst opponents ... but when ladyluck steps out the door or their opponent uses tactics that crush them... I love the look in their eyes as they stare down at 500 dollars worth of Poorly Painted zipkicker infused goodtimes....

If I didn't know better from your other posts, I'd have say you understand very little about this game. An understanding of mathhammer is strategy, and helps make better tactics. I love the look in their eyes when they send what they think is their uber-unit around the flank in a tactical fashion and makes the charge they want and then gets smashed because statistically they had little chance of success.

Any implication that people who use mathhammer don't use tactics is a fallacy, and it looks to me like this is what you are implying above. If not never mind, but please do something about the style of your posts, because so many of them are incredibly hard to make any sense of.

5deadly wrote:I also use strategy and I'm a tactician... and to be brutally honest not the kinda tactician who turns a Maulerfiend sideways at deployment to ensure a charge. I call that bending the rules to get an advantage.
Maths not a problem its people who play to win at any cost that's the problem. You might call it whiny I call it playing with integrity.
When I stomp out some sucka he knows he got stomped out by the best. Not math hammer or poor sportsmanship in the form of bending the rules for the sake of winning. I find those opponents to be the worst and wont waste my time giving them a second game.
And word gets around quick when you play like that. End up hardpressed for an opponent.

Aside from the fact that nothing anyone has said has brought up the topic of TFG, and so it makes no sense that you are talking about him...
//
...but how is deploying your model in your deployment zone and pivoting him on the spot in your movement phase 'bending the rules'? As for you seemingly lumping mathhammer and WAAC gaming together, all I can say is, wow! You talk about people who are hard-pressed to find a game (if anyone doesn't want to play you because you have a fondness for statistics then they aren't worth playing in the first place) but I wonder how one gets a game with an attitude like the above?

As a note, saying things like 'stomp out some sucka' doesn't make you look cool, it makes you look childish. And that's your right, but just saying, it makes taking your argument seriously much more difficult. Calling yourself the best has a similar effect.

Benamint wrote:Win by good generalship and nothing more or less!

So you don't roll any dice in your games then?