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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Chaos may just be able to say feth it to shooting, and smash gk in close combat.

Simply, no. 40k is a shooting game, the Codex doesn't change that.

Ok, let me clarify. I wasnt trying to imply that one should simply run 100 khorne berzerkers and charge full speed screaming WAAAAAAGH. But that chaos might have a decisive combat advantage to exploit. Obviously, any solid list requires oodles of shooting, and 40k is shooting based. But chaos, if able to smash gk in combat, and they bring enough back up firepower, could properly employ these abilities in order to regularly win games.

So do we have any rumors about the second wave yet?

I was merely trying to state that each of us has a different play style and thoughts on the game. I was also hoping we could get off petty arguments and talk about the codex before this gets locked for something as pointless as these arguments.

Anyhow, 5deadly - That I have seen and heard no other really god specific things unless you count the chain axes of zerkers and the AP 3 Bolter ammo for 1k sons. I personally am AMPED about the chain axes and plague knives!my two favorite gods/units!

Only three plastic kits seems quite low for a Codex release.

Well there were the resin bits sets if you count those and all the finecast. I'm sure they will be releasing a second wave. Perhaps not, but they probably will

Eidolon wrote:Ok, let me clarify. I wasnt trying to imply that one should simply run 100 khorne berzerkers and charge full speed screaming WAAAAAAGH. But that chaos might have a decisive combat advantage to exploit. Obviously, any solid list requires oodles of shooting, and 40k is shooting based. But chaos, if able to smash gk in combat, and they bring enough back up firepower, could properly employ these abilities in order to regularly win games.

I know you weren't, I was just saying. However there's nothing in the Chaos army I'd comfortably throw at some Grey Knights in combat, bar a very large unit of Berserkers, but given their new rules I don't see them being taken all that often anymore.

Rivet wrote:So do we have any rumors about the second wave yet?

It's always my belief that second waves are usually the creation of 'rumour mongers' who are more into making lots of guesses on the basis that anything they are wrong about they can chalk it up to a second wave. You'll notice the pattern when new rumours come out, about how apparently half the models in the range are coming out, just they'll be split over two waves. Simply put, safe guesses and a fail-safe; most of these second waves don't happen.

 Griever wrote:
Only three plastic kits seems quite low for a Codex release.

4 plastic kits, and actually that's average for a Codex update. People are just too used to total rewrites as the last 3 codices released were total redo's from codices that were over a decade old.

When I say "stomp some sucka" I say it in the same sarcastic vein as when two obvious nonthugs use thug language....as a joke.

If you use mathhammer cool... I don't, I don't feel I need it. I know what my build can and can't do. I've been playing since I was a kid and I'm an oldman now. (37)

All I'm tryin to say is for me its a well rounded hobby. I don't play to win at all cost. I've won a fair ammount of tournaments. But in the end 95% of people who have played me over the years would play me again because I play to have fun. I know the science of it.
No offense to whoever made the sideways base tactic I seen several post on it... not my thing not something I would be ok with.
But if people are ok with those kinda "tactics" then they can get "played" by those kind of "tactics" a second time, not me..

Sorry for offense just think it should be fun. Isn't fun the true "spirit of the game"

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Leth wrote:At 24 inches: Gk is going to do .296 wounds
Psycannon is going to do 1.037 wounds
Noise Marine is going to do .333 wounds
Thousand Son is going to do .333 wounds

That's great but either your math is wrong, you have forgotten some aspects of the rules (like the limited shots the Chaos units have either at range or on the move, both of which Grey Knights don't suffer), or you are assuming a less than good unit of Grey Knights. Grey Knights actually kill just over 3 on the move and just under 4 while stationary; your average unit is 10 with Psybolts and 2 Cannons for 240pts. The Noise Marines (10 with Sonics and Blastmaster) do just over 4, but only if they stay stationary. The Thousand Sons do just under 4. And this is only putting all of these units into a vacuum. More over, even the math you did present has the Grey Knights winning, yet for some reason you claim otherwise?

Taking the full lists proposed; at 1850pts that's a Slaanesh Lord, Ahriman, two units of Sons, two units of Noise, 3 Dragons. The Grey Knights list as standard is Coteaz, 2 units of Strikes, 1 of Purifiers, 2 Ravens, and 2 Knights, or at least where I'm from it is and that's what I use. The Grey Knights have better flyer support, better ground support (your army has its Troops and characters on the ground while the Grey Knights also have Dreadknights, which the Chaos army can't deal with effectively), can fire most of their weapons at full potential on the move which Chaos can't do (huge disadvantage), and Grey Knights are guaranteed Prescience, making that math above a whole lot more one-sided

My math was just one dude at 24. Sitting stationary firing at marines. I did the psycannon because it is difficult to factor in psychic powers and blasts. So at that comparison the chaos guys come out ahead kills per point. Mathhammer can only be done in a vacuum. But i was just curious how with the direct comparison to gk they would come out ahead. Dragon was just an idea. The rest of the army could be whatever since you have a solid core of troops. I could get 400 points of melta plasma havocs. I was saying that as a core to your army it is pretty formidable. The rest of my post mentioned this i thought. The unit of grey knights is going to be more expensive than the emperors children even with the fnp icon. Which was not factored in to the wounds caused.

Yes, 40k is indeed a shooting game now. I played my last game with this CSM codex against IG of all armies. I was able to get the tally up to max pretty easy, and the FNP on a 3+ Made life a lot easier for my PM and PB, but loosing an entire unit to pie plates the very first shooting phase was not a good sign.

I ordered the Codex today. I really do not care if it's 50 USD. It can't be worse than what we have. After 5 years of mediocraty and obscurity, I am glad for an upgrade.

I love the models, the Maulerfied especially. As much as I love the Drake, I am not going to pay that much for it along with the Maulerfiend. My havocs get Flakk missiles, so that will do. What i saw was something about the attacks on a Maulerfiend are reduced by 1, yet we have not seen where it says "to a minimum of 1" If that isn't cleared up elsewhere in the Codex, I see A LOT of rules lawyering on that one until there is an FAQ.


Any word on what Lucius does? CSM are challenge oriented now, and Lucius seems to be one of the best candidates for challenges. I never had an interest in EC, I might now though.


And has the 2 wound terminator rumor been debunked yet? I'm still hearing it, and I thought they dismissed it for good.

There are only rumors on Lucius. No real leaks on his rules/artifacts yet.

It would appear that there are no 2 wound terminators because we've seen the summary.

However..... There are many pages (upgrades etc) that we have not seen. We will see shortly.

I plan to do an in depth analysis in the Tactica forum when my book arrives. I'm excited for the release, but only really for the codex.

I myself, while enjoying the new models, only care for the codex. I have collected plenty of models over the years. I have a lot of PM, plenty of Zerkers, only 1 squad or EC and thousand sons, which I may rectify with those kits.

I eagerly look forward to your tactica, and will contribute what I can.

Hashulaman wrote:

Any word on what Lucius does? CSM are challenge oriented now, and Lucius seems to be one of the best candidates for challenges. I never had an interest in EC, I might now though.

I don't know his exact stats but the two things that really stand out that I have heard is that he gets a number of attacks each round equal to the WS of a model in BTB contact, these will be power sword attacks so at iniative. And that for every armor save that he makes he inflicts a S4 AP2 hit back at the unit attacking him.

He does sound like a lot of fun.

Very well (unless someone beats me to it)

I've determined what I finally want to run. My goal is to remove the Demons from normal games. At this point I've only been taking them to help my fluffy Tsons survive. Here's what I'm looking at.

Normal Games:
-Ahriman
-ML:3 Sorcerer
-5 Terminators
-9 Thousand Sons (x4)
-18 Cultists
-Helldrake
-Maulerfiend

Apocalypse Expansion:
Chaos Lord
Some Chosen
20 CSMs with Veterans of the Long War
Fateweaver
Horrors
Screamers
Flamers

Definitely exciting to have some new changes that I can mess with.

 Jayden63 wrote:


I don't know his exact stats but the two things that really stand out that I have heard is that he gets a number of attacks each round equal to the WS of a model in BTB contact, these will be power sword attacks so at iniative. And that for every armor save that he makes he inflicts a S4 AP2 hit back at the unit attacking him.

He does sound like a lot of fun.

Holy ish, Sounds like a unit killer... I've always like the Lucius mythos.... so will he unlock noise marines as troops or will you still need a chaos lord with the mark.
I was so set to get those plague marines started until I seen that Rogue Inquisitor force I had box away...
man let me make sure...

Can chosen still take mass combi-weapons?
Do CSMs still retain Bolter/Pistol/CC weapon?

I wonder if a unit can have half with marks and half without. If that's the case, it could make for some saving of points.

Imagine, you have a foot slogger army of CSM with mark of khorne and icon. They are absolutely devastating on the charge. But as you run across the battlefield, casualties are inevitable. You can have slightly bigger squads, say 15 men, or 12 men. But you can also save on some points by having unmarked troops within your unit. Say you estimate that in a squad of 12, likely at least 4 will die. So you have 4 without the mark, and the rest with mark of Khorne. If they make it across the board without a single casualty, your killing power with 4 unmarked and 8 marks will be more than enough. But if they do take casualties, then you would have saved some points by having 4 of them unmarked (and placed in front), because these people would have died anyway, and so making them marked wouldn't have helped at all.

If you have a dedicated foot army, it all stacks up after a while. If each mark of khorne is 2 points, and you save 8 points from leaving 4 unmarked, then 5 squads like that saves you 40 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder if a unit can have half with marks and half without. If that's the case, it could make for some saving of points.

Imagine, you have a foot slogger army of CSM with mark of khorne and icon. They are absolutely devastating on the charge. But as you run across the battlefield, casualties are inevitable. You can have slightly bigger squads, say 15 men, or 12 men. But you can also save on some points by having unmarked troops within your unit. Say you estimate that in a squad of 12, likely at least 4 will die. So you have 4 without the mark, and the rest with mark of Khorne. If they make it across the board without a single casualty, your killing power with 4 unmarked and 8 marks will be more than enough. But if they do take casualties, then you would have saved some points by having 4 of them unmarked (and placed in front), because these people would have died anyway, and so making them marked wouldn't have helped at all.

If you have a dedicated foot army, it all stacks up after a while. If each mark of khorne is 2 points, and you save 8 points from leaving 4 unmarked, then 5 squads like that saves you 40 points.

Marks are for whole units, can't have some models with and some without.

Also, I think it's just a base cost for the unit, unless I missed something in the wishlisting portions of this thread.

 Extreaminatus wrote:
Marks are for whole units, can't have some models with and some without.

Also, I think it's just a base cost for the unit, unless I missed something in the wishlisting portions of this thread.

I was under the impression that marks were a per-model cost and icons were a fixed cost.

Hm. That makes me sad. I liked the way marks worked in the 4th ed. codex. Made things simple.

Either way, I doubt we'll be able to mix marked and unmarked models (that aren't characters), just like the Berzerker chain-axes.

 ph34r wrote:

 Extreaminatus wrote:
Marks are for whole units, can't have some models with and some without.

Also, I think it's just a base cost for the unit, unless I missed something in the wishlisting portions of this thread.

I was under the impression that marks were a per-model cost and icons were a fixed cost.

I can't possibly see them being selected per model tough - that would get unnecessarily confusing.

 -Loki- wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Extreaminatus wrote:
Marks are for whole units, can't have some models with and some without.

Also, I think it's just a base cost for the unit, unless I missed something in the wishlisting portions of this thread.

I was under the impression that marks were a per-model cost and icons were a fixed cost.

I can't possibly see them being selected per model tough - that would get unnecessarily confusing.

Woah, serious brain-fart. Yeah, I was thinking about icons. Yeah, marks would be per-model, but there's no wa they'd be per model, it's too confusing and totally unneeded.

Abit of a odd question but..... Has anyone SEEN the new Wargear Armouries from the new book yet? The reason I ask is because we've seen the summery from the back that lists the rules for everything, and junk. But not the page that lists the points coast for all the choices.

The reason I ask is because in the leaked troop page it said that a Champ could take a items worth up to 10 points from the armoury.

So if things like Doom Sirens, Blight Gernades, Chain Axes, ect are listed in the armouries.... Cult Termies might in fact be possible...

Raptor sprue in case it hasn't been posted yet.

http://i.imgur.com/yS58z.jpg

Looks great for the most part, but it's really disappointing that they've made the jump packs incompatible with other models.

How are they incompatible?

It shouldn't be too hard to make them work with other models. The old-style backpack stud isn't really that important.

My favorite part is getting five complete sets of lightning claws on the sprue. Assuming they're usable options somewhere else in the Codex, that's a pretty good amount of stabby bits.

I'm with Crimson on this one, it looks like the jump packs just glue onto the back plate of the chest, in a pretty similar fashion to how regular backpacks are placed. Most CSM chests have that tab of plastic for a backpack to be glued onto, a little bit of shaving/green stuff work would see a pretty neat kitbash, I'd think.

From what I've gathered you pay for marks on a per model basis however the entire unit must take the mark. Obviously it's done this way so the cost of taking the mark scales with the size of the unit.

Mind you I havent seen any part of the Army List section of the book but I have heard from UK gameday reports that it may be possible to take multiple marks on certain units. Though this probably an oversight of people rushing through the codex or perhaps a misprint in one of tge unit entries. I've been known to misread the phrase "the entire unit may take one of the following" even months of having a codex in my hands. So grain of salt here.

 Benamint wrote:
Well there were the resin bits sets if you count those and all the finecast. I'm sure they will be releasing a second wave. Perhaps not, but they probably will

I just had a comprehensive look through the website. What chaos really need redoing in addition to the havoks is the plastic 'Zerkers. That are looking all a little dated with the modern style of things.

All of the infantry in the Chaos line, aside from the new Chosen, is looking dated. I mean, the Noise Marine upgrades would look boss on some new bodies, but 'Zerkers aren't the only ones.

Marks on on a points per model basis. Unit may only take one.
Icons have a set value, again only take one, limited by what mark you have.

The Champion can take melee or ranged weapons from the armory...no points limit.

There is a picture of the troops page kicking around, btw.

Is ti just me or is there no benifit for being Undivided anymore?
Back in 3.5 Undivided allowed you to re-roll failed leadership tests, but now there's no plus aside from being slightly cheaper.