Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hey peeps,
i was just wondering if you can use forgeworld stuff (ie: wraithseer or titans etc...) in a normal game of 40k.
ive just gotten to grips with new fantsay rules, now the 40k stuff has come out and all the changes... my heads just like

also, the new worlock and farseer powers, im guessing that a (excuse laymans terms) lvl 1 psycher can use 1 spell per tern, lvl 2 can use 2 per turn and so on??
also the psycic powers are to be rolled under LD yea?

(sorry, dont play much lol)
Thanks for the help

Yes and no.

Most FW stuff is 100% official (after all, it's published by GW) and intended for use in normal games. This includes the wraithseer.

Some FW stuff is Apocalyse-only (though still 100% official), which includes superheavies, titans, formations, etc. However, it's pretty obvious what those are.

Easiest way to tell the difference? Standard 40k stuff will include something like "a Wraithseer is a troops choice in an Eldar or Space Marine army", while Apocalypse stuff will just be a huge unit with no such note.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grim549 wrote:
also, the new worlock and farseer powers, im guessing that a (excuse laymans terms) lvl 1 psycher can use 1 spell per tern, lvl 2 can use 2 per turn and so on??
also the psycic powers are to be rolled under LD yea?

This is clearly answered in the rulebook. Please read the rulebook (and buy it if you don't have one) instead of asking for people to give you the rules.

Even if it lists "A is a B choice for C army" you should consult your opponent first. Most people seem to be ok with it

If your opponent has faced any sort of forgeworld model before, then i would assume he would decline. Forgeworld models in my experiance seem to be incredibly overpowered for their point cost.

Just my 2 cents

 felixander wrote:
Even if it lists "A is a B choice for C army" you should consult your opponent first. Most people seem to be ok with it

Should you consult your opponent before you take a Wave Serpent instead of a Falcon for your unit?

(And yes, you should show them the rules before the game begins just like you should show them any codex rules they're unfamiliar with, but you shouldn't "consult" with them about whether it's allowed.)

Andy140491 wrote:
If your opponent has faced any sort of forgeworld model before, then i would assume he would decline. Forgeworld models in my experiance seem to be incredibly overpowered for their point cost.

Err, lol? Most FW models are incredibly underpowered for their point cost. There are some that are powerful on the same level as the most powerful codex units (Vendettas, Long Fangs, etc), but the majority are either fairly priced or cost way too many points for what they do. For example, my Thunderbolt costs 50 points more than a Vendetta, but has weaker armor, no transport capacity, and downgrades two of the TL LCs to TL ACs. Oh yeah, and it eats up a more valuable heavy support slot. But I suppose this is somehow magically "overpowered"?

I havnt got my imperial armour books infont of me. But I can guarantee that there are several units in the 2 books that everyone in our FLGS counts as overpowered

There is a tau battlesuit which is just incredible

Tau remora drones

A khorne and nurgle daemon prince. Ma'mon I think the nurgle
1 is called.

The space marine contemptor dreads. The 1 in the colours of imperial fists, for the points is brill.

I think there is a grey knight land raider, for the exact same points, but any grey knights assaulting from it get initiative 10.

I think there's a lucious pattern drop pod. Not that much more points and you can assault after you deep strike.


That's just from memory.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please correct me if I'm wrong! I don't want a thread conflict. If they are underpriced in points il be glad to here you explain why

There are only a few units that are actually really good for the points or have rules that flat out reverse normal rules (i.e. the drop pod).

Most are very very conservatively priced. Banning all FW just because a few units are 'too' good is not really a good idea.

Should we ban the Necron codex because they get such cheap flyers as dedicated transports?

Also, the drop pod is just a one-trick pony. Yes it may kill something on the turn it arrives, but it should be dead after. And provided you screen your valuables it should be only killing some cheap fodder.

Andy140491 wrote:
There is a tau battlesuit which is just incredible

XV9s are good but on the expensive side, the special character is decent but pretty overpriced. The only reason they seem so good is that the Tau codex is weak and obsolete. Compared to 5th edition codex units the battlesuits really aren't anything special.

Tau remora drones

Are garbage. You pay an obscene amount of points for pathetic firepower. Honestly, I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone say Remoras are even good, let alone overpowered.

A khorne and nurgle daemon prince. Ma'mon I think the nurgle 1 is called.

The Nurgle one is a GUO with +1 toughness and a worse template attack. That's playable, but not really all that impressive compared to the daemon HQs that you could otherwise take.

The Khorne one is a weaker but cheaper bloodthirster. Again, maybe not garbage, but nothing to be afraid of.

The space marine contemptor dreads. The 1 in the colours of imperial fists, for the points is brill.

It costs 200+ points and still dies quickly. Compare it to its points in psyfleman dreads and it's not terrible (mostly because of its skyfire rule) but it's far from an automatic choice.

I think there is a grey knight land raider, for the exact same points, but any grey knights assaulting from it get initiative 10.

Doesn't exist anymore. It was for the old Daemonhunters codex, and hasn't been updated for the current GK codex.

I think there's a lucious pattern drop pod. Not that much more points and you can assault after you deep strike.

Actually it costs twice as much, takes up a fast attack slot, and forces a dangerous terrain test if you assault from it. And BA, the army that has dreads you actually want to assault with, can't take them.

Please correct me if I'm wrong! I don't want a thread conflict.

Final count: you're wrong about all of them. All of those units are, at best, average compared to the power level of 5th edition books as a whole. There will often be reasons to take them in an army (especially if you want to use something cool) but none of them are going to completely change the balance of the game.

Ahh ok! Sorry for the accusation. I play with some very argumentative people who fiercely accuse me of playin with overpowered armies and units.

Every time I think about using anything from forgeworld I get accused of using OP stuff and playing unfairly. (I have the ork mega dread, the greater tzeentch daemon, and a lot of fantasy FW stuff)

Andy140491 wrote:
Every time I think about using anything from forgeworld I get accused of using OP stuff and playing unfairly.

Probably because some people have a definition of "overpowered" that is pretty much "anything that I lose a game to". It's unfortunate, but all you can do is try to find somewhere else to play.

 Peregrine wrote:

I think there's a lucious pattern drop pod. Not that much more points and you can assault after you deep strike.

Actually it costs twice as much, takes up a fast attack slot, and forces a dangerous terrain test if you assault from it. And BA, the army that has dreads you actually want to assault with, can't take them.

Actually Blood Angels CAN take it, it is NOT twice the points cost, and it is NOT a Fast Attack Choice. And yes, it is overpowered either way. I would never play it.

 felixander wrote:

Actually Blood Angels CAN take it, it is NOT twice the points cost, and it is NOT a Fast Attack Choice. And yes, it is overpowered either way. I would never play it.

And your Dreadnought has to roll to see if it gets immobilized when it disembarks from the drop pod. Also, how scary is a dreadnought in hand to hand combat? It's going to kill at most one squad of whatever it charges, so what's the big deal? With the nerf to walkers/buff to grenades this edition, I don't get the commotion. I don't understand why people think that's an overpowered option.

 felixander wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

I think there's a lucious pattern drop pod. Not that much more points and you can assault after you deep strike.

Actually it costs twice as much, takes up a fast attack slot, and forces a dangerous terrain test if you assault from it. And BA, the army that has dreads you actually want to assault with, can't take them.

Actually Blood Angels CAN take it, it is NOT twice the points cost, and it is NOT a Fast Attack Choice. And yes, it is overpowered either way. I would never play it.

No, you are wrong. The rules were updated in IA:Apocalypse (second edition) to the ones I quoted, and it even has an explicit note that they replace the IA:Apocalypse 2 rules. Please do your research before correcting people.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 felixander wrote:

Actually Blood Angels CAN take it, it is NOT twice the points cost, and it is NOT a Fast Attack Choice. And yes, it is overpowered either way. I would never play it.

And your Dreadnought has to roll to see if it gets immobilized when it disembarks from the drop pod. Also, how scary is a dreadnought in hand to hand combat? It's going to kill at most one squad of whatever it charges, so what's the big deal? With the nerf to walkers/buff to grenades this edition, I don't get the commotion. I don't understand why people think that's an overpowered option.

"Just " one squad, and not everyone gets melta/krak funtime. Plus, it's really easy to drop down and charge vehicles so that dreadnaught takes out "Just" a squad of two leman russes or "Just" a Leman russ. Charge from deepstrike is extremely rare for a reason and usually one big threat is scattering into the enemy you want to charge, which the drop pod negates. I just imagine seeing 4 Blood Angel dreadnaughts coming in turn one and charging directly into an army and decimating it.

I think it's just polite to see whether your opponent is ok with you using FW stuff. Like has been said, it is often overpowered and many people won't like to play it because it's unfamiliar.

But that said, you mostly get acceptances, it's just polite to ask

 felixander wrote:
Plus, it's really easy to drop down and charge vehicles so that dreadnaught takes out "Just" a squad of two leman russes or "Just" a Leman russ.

So drop pod multimelta dreads are bad? After all, they can very easily take out a LR on turn 1.

Also, where is your bubble wrap? Why did you see this ability in your opponent's list and fail to put a cheap meatshield squad in front of the tank so the dread is wasted?

I just imagine seeing 4 Blood Angel dreadnaughts coming in turn one and charging directly into an army and decimating it.

Perhaps you should read the rules (I explained this in my previous post) where BA can't take it? So you can imagine it, but unless you're dumb enough to house rule that your BA opponent can take something the rules don't allow them to take it's not going to happen.

 Peregrine wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Plus, it's really easy to drop down and charge vehicles so that dreadnaught takes out "Just" a squad of two leman russes or "Just" a Leman russ.

So drop pod multimelta dreads are bad? After all, they can very easily take out a LR on turn 1.

Also, where is your bubble wrap? Why did you see this ability in your opponent's list and fail to put a cheap meatshield squad in front of the tank so the dread is wasted?

Yeah but now he gets that MultiMelta and then a charge into the squad that was inside...
Maybe I don't play 2 50 man blobs to completely wrap up everything.

I just imagine seeing 4 Blood Angel dreadnaughts coming in turn one and charging directly into an army and decimating it.

Perhaps you should read the rules (I explained this in my previous post) where BA can't take it? So you can imagine it, but unless you're dumb enough to house rule that your BA opponent can take something the rules don't allow them to take it's not going to happen.

Perhaps this is old but
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf
Page 8
Dreadnought Drop Pod (Lucius Pattern)
"A Dreadnought Drop Pod is a dedicated transport choice for any type of Space Marine Dreadnought in Space Marine, Dark Angel, Black
Templar, Space Wolf and Blood Angels Armies, please refer to the appropriate codex."

You've made your point clear that you think that most FW units are "incredibly underpowered for their point cost", but I think the majority of people you'll find disagree with you.

 felixander wrote:
Maybe I don't play 2 50 man blobs to completely wrap up everything.

You hardly need 50-man blobs. A single squad can provide a sufficient assault screen for multiple tanks if you're smart about your deployment.

Perhaps this is old but

Yes, it is old. Many years old, in fact, the rules have been updated twice since then. This was also from before the current BA codex, so at the time it was written the only had the same weak-in-assault dreads that everyone else got.

However, thank you for demonstrating my point very nicely: most people who complain about FW units don't actually know the rules for them, and whine about old rules and/or rumors they heard from someone else.

You've made your point clear that you think that most FW units are "incredibly underpowered for their point cost", but I think the majority of people you'll find disagree with you.

Only because "the majority of people" don't actually know what the rules for FW units are, and think everything is on the level of dread pods and LR Achilles. Anyone who has read all of the FW rules with an open mind will quickly realize that most of them are somewhere between weak and decent, with only a very few approaching the level of top-tier codex units.

 Peregrine wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Maybe I don't play 2 50 man blobs to completely wrap up everything.

You hardly need 50-man blobs. A single squad can provide a sufficient assault screen for multiple tanks if you're smart about your deployment.

Perhaps this is old but

Yes, it is old. Many years old, in fact, the rules have been updated twice since then. This was also from before the current BA codex, so at the time it was written the only had the same weak-in-assault dreads that everyone else got.

However, thank you for demonstrating my point very nicely: most people who complain about FW units don't actually know the rules for them, and whine about old rules and/or rumors they heard from someone else.

You've made your point clear that you think that most FW units are "incredibly underpowered for their point cost", but I think the majority of people you'll find disagree with you.

Only because "the majority of people" don't actually know what the rules for FW units are, and think everything is on the level of dread pods and LR Achilles. Anyone who has read all of the FW rules with an open mind will quickly realize that most of them are somewhere between weak and decent, with only a very few approaching the level of top-tier codex units.

I'm sorry that clearly most people aren't on your level. Hopefully you are able to avoid dealing with them by never playing out.
But clearly this is a subject that is near to your heart as you seem very touchy about it. I'm just gonna refrain from responding to you anymore. Have a good one!

 felixander wrote:

Perhaps this is old but
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf
Page 8
Dreadnought Drop Pod (Lucius Pattern)
"A Dreadnought Drop Pod is a dedicated transport choice for any type of Space Marine Dreadnought in Space Marine, Dark Angel, Black
Templar, Space Wolf and Blood Angels Armies, please refer to the appropriate codex."

You've made your point clear that you think that most FW units are "incredibly underpowered for their point cost", but I think the majority of people you'll find disagree with you.

It has been replaced by the newer rules in Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd edition. Blood Angels and Grey Knights are forbidden to take it. The only bit of cheese now is that Ironclad Dreads have move through cover and ignore the dangerous terrain test.

Other than that there are a few gems overall (Tetras for Tau for instance), however even they don't reach the power of Night Scythes, Purifiers, Long Fangs, Blood Angel Glitter Vampire, Deathwing Squads, Vulkan, Doom of Atlanta and a host of other things found in every current army book list.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280663.page

Moving to YMDC

Yeah peregrine. You do seem really agitated by this subject. That's why I just said you were right and moved on. But seem as though perhaps my local gaming club Arnt the only people who think they are overpowered, maybe in your opinion they Arnt?

Besides from deviating from the subject. It obviously comes out to what the majority of people allow?

FW is fully allowed at our place and most people include a unit or two. Familiarity certainly helps as most things go through the standard phases of:

1) OMG
2) I will never play that
3) Let me read that..
4) Ok I got this.

The biggest howls so far at our FLGS came from mindshackle scarabs. They allow the Necrons to forgo standard assault phases asymmetrically though they are able to be mitigated to a degree now.

 lazarian wrote:
Other than that there are a few gems overall (Tetras for Tau for instance), however even they don't reach the power of Night Scythes, Purifiers, Long Fangs, Blood Angel Glitter Vampire, Deathwing Squads, Vulkan, Doom of Atlanta and a host of other things found in every current army book list.

Just because there are over powered things in the game doesn't mean we should allow more of it! Personally, I play the game for fun and don't have fun bringing a hyper-competitive list. I try to avoid Long Fang/GK spam armies but simply showing no interest in playing against them.

 Peregrine wrote:

However, thank you for demonstrating my point very nicely: most people who complain about FW units don't actually know the rules for them, and whine about old rules and/or rumors they heard from someone else.

I am sure you meant to say; "This one person that I am talking to right now doesn't actually know the rules, but I wont be dumb enough to make sweeping generalisations from this example".

A good 99% of all FW units are overpriced / underpowered. Solid fact.

Hades drill, for its points, is a very good one shotter....

Lucius is "ok", as iron clads in a vulkan list are very good - one shot the transport with TL MM (they take MM right? seem to remember they do) then kill the unit inside. FAV13 cares little about krak.

And - thats about it. Mortice contemptors, with skyfire AND interceptor if they stand still (which is...always when your opponent is bringing reserves on*) are expensive, and a pair is almsot as much as 3 riflemen.


*EI and you bringing the contemptor on same turn is the only exception i can think of, however they arent flyers so you care slightly less

 felixander wrote:

 lazarian wrote:
Other than that there are a few gems overall (Tetras for Tau for instance), however even they don't reach the power of Night Scythes, Purifiers, Long Fangs, Blood Angel Glitter Vampire, Deathwing Squads, Vulkan, Doom of Atlanta and a host of other things found in every current army book list.

Just because there are over powered things in the game doesn't mean we should allow more of it! Personally, I play the game for fun and don't have fun bringing a hyper-competitive list. I try to avoid Long Fang/GK spam armies but simply showing no interest in playing against them.

...which is why Forge World shouldn't trouble you. The massive selling point of those models are looks and the general inconvince it is to obtain them, not their power level. They look pretty are are less powerful than options in the army you currently play.

 felixander wrote:
I got the facts wrong and made dramatic claims about how "overpowered" something is because I was too lazy to check the actual rules, and I got caught. Now it's much easier to run off and whine about "you take this too seriously" instead of admitting that I was wrong, so I think I'll just do that.

Fixed that for you.

 felixander wrote:
Just because there are over powered things in the game doesn't mean we should allow more of it! Personally, I play the game for fun and don't have fun bringing a hyper-competitive list. I try to avoid Long Fang/GK spam armies but simply showing no interest in playing against them.

Yeah, but Tetras aren't overpowered, they're just good. Calling them overpowered and refusing to play against them would be like refusing to play a game against a Tau player who brought crisis suits.

And that's what the vast majority of FW units are: somewhere between second-tier and good, but not really better than the average codex unit.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I am sure you meant to say; "This one person that I am talking to right now doesn't actually know the rules, but I wont be dumb enough to make sweeping generalisations from this example".

No, I mean exactly what I said. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a rant about how "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING FW UNITS ARE SO BROKEN!!!!!!!!!!!", and it turns out the only reason the think it's overpowered is because they don't actually know what the rules for it are. In fact I'd say the vast majority of complains about overpowered FW units I've seen have come from people who don't have the rules, don't play against them, and just echo the internet "consensus" that they're obviously too powerful.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
A good 99% of all FW units are overpriced / underpowered. Solid fact.

Hades drill, for its points, is a very good one shotter....

Lucius is "ok", as iron clads in a vulkan list are very good - one shot the transport with TL MM (they take MM right? seem to remember they do) then kill the unit inside. FAV13 cares little about krak.

And - thats about it. Mortice contemptors, with skyfire AND interceptor if they stand still (which is...always when your opponent is bringing reserves on*) are expensive, and a pair is almsot as much as 3 riflemen.


*EI and you bringing the contemptor on same turn is the only exception i can think of, however they arent flyers so you care slightly less

And this is my problem with forge rules.
The models are pretty, the rules may be 99% under-powered, but the rules are 99% unavailable. I can't walk over the the shelf and read the rules and decide for myself. I've got to shell out ~$100 to get rules, and then another large chunk of cash for the models.
If forge world books were commonly stocked, and priced more reasonable, I'd have no problem with more widespread use.

As for the looks as the main attraction, I don't buy into that. I hardly ever see anyone playing forge world models as a "counts as" stand in for normal units. If it were just about the pretty model, using normal rules shouldn't be an issue.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The models are pretty, the rules may be 99% under-powered, but the rules are 99% unavailable. I can't walk over the the shelf and read the rules and decide for myself. I've got to shell out ~$100 to get rules, and then another large chunk of cash for the models.

So what? You have to buy a codex to get the codex rules, and last time I checked those weren't exactly cheap either. Otherwise you do what everyone else does: look at their rulebook and/or codex before the game begins and make sure you understand everything.

Also, the IA:Apocalypse books that contain most of the rules you'll want are NOT $100 each.

If forge world books were commonly stocked, and priced more reasonable, I'd have no problem with more widespread use.

How much more commonly stocked can they be? http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books , in stock and ready to order. Or just read your opponent's book before the game begins.

Plus, it's kind of silly that people complain about the rules being "hard to get" when they probably have an illegal pdf of every codex in the game on their computer.