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Spoiler:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

More later off to the bus. Mine said whether they were transferrable (and went to the college I was planning on transferring to). You may not have been able to do that, hence my statement - you may be right.

I was also sold on classes that they hadn't run in years (they didn't tell me that) and industry professional teachers that didn't exist because they were on three year sabbaticals (they didn't tell me that and those people left the university without returning). They sold me on industry placement statistics that I later found out were a decade old. I was also unfortunate enough to go to school during the financial crises in a state university hammered by it, so what little worth my education had started getting cut as they removed classes and non tenured staff (the only staff worth something there).

I need to move farther away from that place, the whole thing makes me want to hurt someone.

Damn dude... drinks on me.

And, the sad thing, I hear this all the time from different folks.

We need more sunlight on this because this gaks-up people lives...

I tried to do something about it when I was there, but seemingly the entire staff was either in on it or didn't care. The heads of the university couldn't care less, they were busy cutting everything they could and my major had shown significant growth in new attendants. The students themselves were generally scared to speak up and left after the second year in droves (seriously, there was almost a 50% washout rate, I didn't have enough money to transfer, my family is hella poor). I was in "New Media Design", which was sold to me as a graphic design and technology focused degree. Apparently a lot of other people were sold on a lot of other degree focuses and the classes didn't seem to teach much of anything at all. You don't go to a state school as your first choice if you want to do graphic design, film, or videogames, you do that as a last resort of in my case because it's where the fething credits could transfer from that pile of gak community college. Since it was mostly everyones last choice or desperation choice most of my classmates just shut up and accepted the easy classes and worthless staff. Without a lot of other people speaking up I was just labeled as a squeaky wheel and nothing happened.

feth Maine, feth the American educational system. This country has a huge problem with it's sacred cow of "individual responsibility" and that's making it impossible for us to reform anything. It's all the same gak, middlemen get in and try to make as much money as possible and people with no choice or who don't know better end up fethed. I hate this countries higher ed system. Everything in this fething country just caters to the rich and feths people like me who work hard to get ahead but don't have a free pass.

Before I commit to name a few "profession" that doesn't require a college degree. What pay range I'm looking at. We talking salary or hourly?

 Jihadin wrote:
Before I commit to name a few "profession" that doesn't require a college degree. What pay range I'm looking at. We talking salary or hourly?

Lets start at $17 hourly or 40k salaried. Something that will put you at the bottom of lower middle class.

Alot of skilled jobs don't need a college degree and pay well. But many do want at least you to have a certificate, easily obtainted with 2-3 semesters at a community college.

Welding for one. You can easily make $30+ an hour, you may or may not have benifits though.

Of course there won't be much opprotunity for advancement without a college degree and there is the inherent security risk that comes with the job. If the local economy takes a dip you may be out of work.

Well, this thread is frakking depressing, especially as I'm a highschool senior now. Basically, I have 3 options:

1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.

2: I can go to a university for the full 4 years and end up with crap tons of debt in a stagnant/shrinking economy.

3: I can commit suicide. I can't get a job without a 4-year degree, and I will end up with lots of debt no matter what route I take.

Honestly, (3) is the most attractive sounding option. I'm pretty much screwed no matter what I do, so why bother living?

_Tim?

Aircraft Airframe and power plant mechanic

Aircraft Structural Repairer

Surgical Technician

Rep for surgical equipment

Forklift operator

I would throw in what I do but you literally have to join the military to get the school/classes

HVA tech

GS7 jobs for the government.

Though I'm trained and experience on one major field I can branch all out to a whole truck load of other jobs

 Jihadin wrote:
Aircraft Airframe and power plant mechanic

Aircraft Structural Repairer

Surgical Technician

Rep for surgical equipment

Forklift operator

I would throw in what I do but you literally have to join the military to get the school/classes

HVA tech

GS7 jobs for the government.

Though I'm trained and experience on one major field I can branch all out to a whole truck load of other jobs

Half of those sound like they require that you be in the military. Aircraft structural repair certainly sounds like it's something that wouldn't be done untrained in the civilian industry. Working on cars, which don't fly in the sky, requires a technical degree and vocational training these days.

One class and a apprenticeship program for aviation.
or
A VOTech catering to it. SC will give you access to the high end airframes = more cash

Surgtech like a 4 month program. Start off in Central Processing to learn the instruments and sets be my advice. With the SC you gain access to certain type of hospitals

HVA school like 3 months. Everyone loves their AC and heat.

some require tech school not a degree

If you skydive and in excellent shape go for Smoke Jumpers or the fire crews to. Unlike me I'm a paratrooper and in no longer in perfect shape....dang the IED

Another off the wall job not many people think of but its a 8 month program. Train logistical coordinater. Thats start 23 an hour. You have to be selected for that.

 Jihadin wrote:
One class and a apprenticeship program for aviation.
or
A VOTech catering to it. SC will give you access to the high end airframes = more cash

Surgtech like a 4 month program. Start off in Central Processing to learn the instruments and sets be my advice. With the SC you gain access to certain type of hospitals

HVA school like 3 months. Everyone loves their AC and heat.

some require tech school not a degree

If you skydive and in excellent shape go for Smoke Jumpers or the fire crews to. Unlike me I'm a paratrooper and in no longer in perfect shape....dang the IED

Another off the wall job not many people think of but its a 8 month program. Train logistical coordinater. Thats start 23 an hour. You have to be selected for that.

I'm not sure these jobs are common enough to absorb the 12 million people currently looking for work in America. I really doubt that even if they filled every available slot in every industry in every one of the areas you listed it would bring down employment by .01%. I doubt enough aircraft frames need repair. Niche jobs and cottage industries are nice, but they're not a realistic answer to the current systemic issues with employment and education in America.

Aahhhh jobs that would make a dent in Unemployment at the get go. Can't help there unless we're invading China soon and then just wait for the draft to be implemented. Best guess though and its far fecth. Crank up the recycling centers nationwide. Just throwing it out there. I don't see a profit in it till like5-6 yrs down the road.

If there's a draft, I intend to flee to Canada. I don't care if Canada has horrible broadband speed, I'm gettin the hell outta there.

"If a country would sacrifice its freedom for security, it deserves neither."

 ShumaGorath wrote:

More later off to the bus. Mine said whether they were transferrable (and went to the college I was planning on transferring to). You may not have been able to do that, hence my statement - you may be right.

I was also sold on classes that they hadn't run in years (they didn't tell me that) and industry professional teachers that didn't exist because they were on three year sabbaticals (they didn't tell me that and those people left the university without returning). They sold me on industry placement statistics that I later found out were a decade old. I was also unfortunate enough to go to school during the financial crises in a state university hammered by it, so what little worth my education had started getting cut as they removed classes and non tenured staff (the only staff worth something there).

I need to move farther away from that place, the whole thing makes me want to hurt someone.

Now THAT I understand.
My Jr. College (Mt. Sac uber alles) was almost tied to the hip to the undergrad I went to. It was even located adjacent to it. The counselors for both interacted heavily and the classes interacted heavily. California public universities were awesome.

LOL how do you think we prior service feel. We be called back up to for cadre. I've no desire to deal with draftee's. I'm not laying my arse on the line for a possible quitter

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You very well might have been. however you know which classes were transferrable or not. I sure did.

Many times, these days, transfers will not be informed of the status of their credits until they're admitted or they have accepted.

You also can't determine loan status, federal or private, until admission occurs.

WELL THAT IS ABSOLUTE HORSE gak.

Dad's credits transferred too. Yes I may be the crazy who had his old man going to the same JC at the same time. Go far out old man!

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
One class and a apprenticeship program for aviation.
or
A VOTech catering to it. SC will give you access to the high end airframes = more cash

Surgtech like a 4 month program. Start off in Central Processing to learn the instruments and sets be my advice. With the SC you gain access to certain type of hospitals

HVA school like 3 months. Everyone loves their AC and heat.

some require tech school not a degree

If you skydive and in excellent shape go for Smoke Jumpers or the fire crews to. Unlike me I'm a paratrooper and in no longer in perfect shape....dang the IED

Another off the wall job not many people think of but its a 8 month program. Train logistical coordinater. Thats start 23 an hour. You have to be selected for that.

I'm not sure these jobs are common enough to absorb the 12 million people currently looking for work in America. I really doubt that even if they filled every available slot in every industry in every one of the areas you listed it would bring down employment by .01%. I doubt enough aircraft frames need repair. Niche jobs and cottage industries are nice, but they're not a realistic answer to the current systemic issues with employment and education in America.

Seriously... if you're good at math and can force yourself to learn chemistry... Pharmacy is hot. (not Pharmacy tech, but full bore PharmD).

My parents participated in the DC Occupy movement. I thought it was pretty funny. They have opinions about everything, and every single opinion was greeted with the same opinion by everyone else.

I think OWS was a cool idea, but a total failure, due in no small part to the media's portrayal of it., and their very organization as leaderless.

But they were praised by the Democrats

The idea of people getting out and putting actual effort into expressing their dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs and trying to make change happen is a good one. Being willing to sacrifice your comfort and time for a cause is admirable.

It was the execution that was poor and ineffective.

But the basic idea was charmingly idealistic and did remind folks of other protest movements which actually got some things done and changes made.

 Frazzled wrote:

WELL THAT IS ABSOLUTE HORSE gak.

Dad's credits transferred too. Yes I may be the crazy who had his old man going to the same JC at the same time. Go far out old man!

Are you disagreeing with me, or saying that the situation is gakky?

 Jihadin wrote:
But they were praised by the Democrats

I liked Klavens take on OWS, not just because he takes a swipe at Jimmy Carter every oppourtunity he get, but because he used the word wacky.

Man, I personally feel rather shafted about the whole Occupy thing. I was employed literally for the duration, and it ended right before I was fired, so I didn't have the free time to go, and when I finally did they weren't there anymore. Sucked.

Also, I think the OWS was noble in it's original intent, which was to separate money from politics essentially, but they didn't actually manage to do much aside from raise awareness and feed a bunch of homeless people.

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

WELL THAT IS ABSOLUTE HORSE gak.

Dad's credits transferred too. Yes I may be the crazy who had his old man going to the same JC at the same time. Go far out old man!

Are you disagreeing with me, or saying that the situation is gakky?

Agreeing with you and saying that the situation is horse gak.

I don't really understand why people claim the Occupy movement was unsuccessful. It highlighted heavily the wealth gap, cronyism in wallstreet and bank regulation, and modern tax reform issues while putting a spotlight on the failures of the modern American educational system. It was on the news every single day for almost a year. By almost every reckoning it was one of the most successful protest movements in the last 30 years, even more so since it's message was pretty distributed and nuanced. Unlike the tea party movement which became by a 3-1 margin hated a year after it's time in the sun most people are still pretty ambivalent or vaguely scornful of the occupy movement. It didn't become a fox news co-opted media darling and crash and burn like it's contemporary, it displayed actual desperation and highlited actual fething issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

WELL THAT IS ABSOLUTE HORSE gak.

Dad's credits transferred too. Yes I may be the crazy who had his old man going to the same JC at the same time. Go far out old man!

Are you disagreeing with me, or saying that the situation is gakky?

Agreeing with you and saying that the situation is horse gak.

I wish all they did was not tell me what would transfer. They actively lied to me about what would instead.

 Jihadin wrote:
But they were praised by the Democrats

Yup, Obama was all over that stuff, among others.

 ShumaGorath wrote:
I don't really understand why people claim the Occupy movement was unsuccessful. It highlighted heavily the wealth gap, cronyism in wallstreet and bank regulation, and modern tax reform issues while putting a spotlight on the failures of the modern American educational system.

Agreed. I had initially claimed it would fail miserably, but OWS has successfully spurred the conversation regarding conditions in America in that it has actually brought to the fore issues that affect young people.

 Frazzled wrote:

Agreeing with you and saying that the situation is horse gak.

Good, good. Just wasn't sure.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

I wish all they did was not tell me what would transfer. They actively lied to me about what would instead.

That's common as well, especially at directional schools. And yes, its bs that you have every right to be pissed about.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Well, this thread is frakking depressing, especially as I'm a highschool senior now. Basically, I have 3 options:

1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.

2: I can go to a university for the full 4 years and end up with crap tons of debt in a stagnant/shrinking economy.

3: I can commit suicide. I can't get a job without a 4-year degree, and I will end up with lots of debt no matter what route I take.

Honestly, (3) is the most attractive sounding option. I'm pretty much screwed no matter what I do, so why bother living?

_Tim?

My completely off-the-cuff and undoubtedly hilariously ill-matched career advice:

Military right out of high school. If they're still handing out 18X contracts, and you actually end up being one of the 5% or so who can hack it, congratulations on acquiring a skillset that'll have you in your choice of 200K+ a year jobs, especially if you combine it with...

A paid-for degree as soon as you get out with the GI Bill.

If I had it to do over again, that'd be my play.

 whembly wrote:
Sebster: all that does is give the banks more "cash" on hand...

What it doesn't do is ecourage the banks to lend "more"...

QE isn't about encouraging the banks to lend more. I thnk you're confusing different elements of monetary policy. QE is simply about directly injecting more cash into the market place to have a direct impact on deflation.

the first two QE really did make that much of an impact... the danger here is that unlike the first two QE, there's no "end date" for the current program... that is, "they'll keep buy bank assets, ie, print money, until things look good". Here's the thing, when would that be?

It isn't about making the market good again. It's about reducing the negative impact while the market recovers itself. In this case the point was to prevent deflation. I can't do anyting more than point out that that was achieved.

EDIT: Oh, and commodities market is on a real upswing, this QE seems to depreciate the dollar... which pushes the price in Oil future markets... know what these things can lead to? Higher inflation...

You're confusing depreciating the dollar relative to other currencies, and inflation. Those two things are actually negatively correlated (think about it - inflation means the dollar can buy less goods than it used to be able to buy, it only makes sense that a currency that can buy less goods will be less valuable relative to another currency that hasn't had as much inflation).

If you're interested in how that works go look up ISLM, it's a little tricky to get your head around but the graphs it shows will give you a better understanding than I could do here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
I think part of the issue is that most students don't really know what they want to do and yet they go to these schools without fully understanding what happens afterwards (the debt).

Not saying we should automatically absolve the debt... just saying that the current system is bad.

I think the other thing Americans need to realise is how expensive tertiary education is there compared to elsewhere in the world. Not just at the top end, but middle tier colleges charge an outrageous sum for basic degrees.

The university I used to work, which was by no means a model of efficiency in any possible sense of the term, had a cost per student of about a third of the US average (that's cost including all government subsidies, by the way). And it was just outside the top 50 places of higher learning in the world.

There needs to be a massive program of economic rationalisation within the college systems in the US, to make sure students are paying no more than they have to for what they get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:
I disagree with almost all of Rick Santorum's positions, often profoundly, but I do agree with him that we drastically over-emphasize the necessity of a college education in this country. Most grads aren't in jobs that require their degree as anything other than a box to be checked by someone in HR when looking at the resume.

I, for example, probably would have made more money over my lifetime if I hadn't gone to college and then looked at the military. If I'd joined up, done a moderate amount of snake-eating, GI Bill'd my way through school, and then made $200K a year as a twenty-six year-old doing contract work for the government overseas, I'd...well, I'd likely have blown it all by now, but money's for spending.

College isn't the right answer for everybody, and it's an unnecessary one for an awful lot.

Agreed. A lot of the problem came from the very dubious logic that figured that all us first world nations needed to figure out some place where we had a competitive advantage over the developing world, in order to protect our high incomes and avoid a race to the bottom.

They figured the answer was higher education, and therefore a future wealthy society would be one where loads more people had higher educations. Problem is that just because you train a computer programmer, doesn't mean a job for a high end computer programmer appears. All you end up doing is devaluing higher education.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ShumaGorath wrote:
I'm not sure these jobs are common enough to absorb the 12 million people currently looking for work in America. I really doubt that even if they filled every available slot in every industry in every one of the areas you listed it would bring down employment by .01%. I doubt enough aircraft frames need repair. Niche jobs and cottage industries are nice, but they're not a realistic answer to the current systemic issues with employment and education in America.

The idea would be that for the 500 people employed in working on aircraft, you'd probably have another 1500 odd employed in supporting that business, as reception, management, finance, all that stuff. Then all those 2,000 people would spend their pay cheque into the local economy, and generate another 2,000 odd jobs.

I know you're saying that's probably a niche industry, but unfortunately the reality is that if you want to protect high wages you have to look to specialist industries. The only way to compete on bulk industries is to pay Chinese wages.

The problem is that these niche industries aren't opening up fast enough to match the growing US population. This graph shows the number of people in jobs relative to the total US population, and tells a rather unpleasant story;



Looking back to the recession in the early 2000, you see that the jobs lost there were never actually replaced. The economy stabilised so that it returned to creating jobs as fast as the population expanded, but it never made any real recovery back to the highs of the late 90s. The same thing is happening now in the wake of the GFC, the economy is back to creating jobs about as fast as the population expands, but it isn't looking like recovering the jobs lost in the GFC, let alone returning to old heights.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
One class and a apprenticeship program for aviation.
or
A VOTech catering to it. SC will give you access to the high end airframes = more cash

Surgtech like a 4 month program. Start off in Central Processing to learn the instruments and sets be my advice. With the SC you gain access to certain type of hospitals

HVA school like 3 months. Everyone loves their AC and heat.

some require tech school not a degree

If you skydive and in excellent shape go for Smoke Jumpers or the fire crews to. Unlike me I'm a paratrooper and in no longer in perfect shape....dang the IED

Another off the wall job not many people think of but its a 8 month program. Train logistical coordinater. Thats start 23 an hour. You have to be selected for that.

I'm not sure these jobs are common enough to absorb the 12 million people currently looking for work in America. I really doubt that even if they filled every available slot in every industry in every one of the areas you listed it would bring down employment by .01%. I doubt enough aircraft frames need repair. Niche jobs and cottage industries are nice, but they're not a realistic answer to the current systemic issues with employment and education in America.

In Jihadin's defense, he stated there were several profitable fields one could get into without a degree. When called on it, he produced some jobs. Now he's getting called out because those jobs can't fix our nations unemployment problems... that is some serious goalpost moving.

In any event, I agree with the core preposition - I work in IT and there are an awful lot of jobs that requite a bachelors that would be more appropriately filled by someone who had a few months worth of professional certifications. For example, one highly skilled technician lost out on a program manager position he applied for to someone simply because she had a degree and he did not. I'm not sure how much use an IT professional actually gets out of a degree in hotel management, but that's how my shop rolls.

Spoiler: she wound up being really terrible; this not being a hotel.

 sebster wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
I disagree with almost all of Rick Santorum's positions, often profoundly, but I do agree with him that we drastically over-emphasize the necessity of a college education in this country. Most grads aren't in jobs that require their degree as anything other than a box to be checked by someone in HR when looking at the resume.

College isn't the right answer for everybody, and it's an unnecessary one for an awful lot.

Agreed. A lot of the problem came from the very dubious logic that figured that all us first world nations needed to figure out some place where we had a competitive advantage over the developing world, in order to protect our high incomes and avoid a race to the bottom.

They figured the answer was higher education, and therefore a future wealthy society would be one where loads more people had higher educations. Problem is that just because you train a computer programmer, doesn't mean a job for a high end computer programmer appears. All you end up doing is devaluing higher education.

I agree with you both, although I'm not sure why Seaward is referencing Rick Santorum, rather than the current candidate who also prominently advocates technical and trade schools as an alternative to a default assumption that college is the only path.

 Mannahnin wrote:

I agree with you both, although I'm not sure why Seaward is referencing Rick Santorum, rather than the current candidate who also prominently advocates technical and trade schools as an alternative to a default assumption that college is the only path.

Just because you're curious, I'm not going to tell you.