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The diffrence between bone swords and force weapons is huge. With a force weapon once it is activated causes ID for every hit that model does for all of its attacks. A bone sword does it once per model only. If you hit with a force sword and don't trigger ID, and it then hits anouther model, you don't get to retest like you do with a bone sword.
Two totally diffrent sets of rules. Can't infer how one opperates fron the other.

I am still sticking to a second Nid with swords causes anouther test. The "a tyrinid" part still makes it once per model with bone sword

 Grey Templar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Because it is the exact same application.

It is?
I've read the Force rule a few times and I don't recall the words "or more" in it. I could be wrong though.

Nemesis Force Weapons are also different from normal Force Weapons.

Normal force weapons make 1 wound cause instant death. Nemesis Weapons make ALL the wounds cause Instant Death, including those that follow at a later inititive step.

Force Weapon... If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule......

Right, "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds" Vs. "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds"

So, then answer the original question. How many would die ?

 Gloomfang wrote:

I am still sticking to a second Nid with swords causes anouther test. The "a tyrinid" part still makes it once per model with bone sword

This is how I am reading it also.

Lets try an example here. Lets say 2 Tyranids with boneswords against 3 single wound Terminators.

So that's 6 Attacks from the the 'Nids, all hit and all wound and the Terminators fail all their Invulnerable saves.

Do you

1. take one Leadership test for all 3 Terminators and they all die if failed.
2. take a leadership test for each, those failing being removed as casualties.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

I am still sticking to a second Nid with swords causes anouther test. The "a tyrinid" part still makes it once per model with bone sword

This is how I am reading it also.

Lets try an example here. Lets say 2 Tyranids with boneswords against 3 single wound Terminators.

So that's 6 Attacks from the the 'Nids, all hit and all wound and the Terminators fail all their Invulnerable saves.

Do you

1. take one Leadership test for all 3 Terminators and they all die if failed.
2. take a leadership test for each, those failing being removed as casualties.

Since it's a case of each model needing to suffer a wound this example is useless, they suffer a wound and die. If they pass their save, nothing happens.

Fragile wrote:

Right, "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds" Vs. "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds"

So, then answer the original question. How many would die ?

Force weapons are not worded the same as Boneswords, so that example has no bearing.

What are you getting at?

But we can all agree that if you had X wounds from a BS/LW and Y Wounds from 2x BS, you would take two tests, right?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Right, "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds" Vs. "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds"

So, then answer the original question. How many would die ?

Force weapons are not worded the same as Boneswords, so that example has no bearing.

What are you getting at?

Because your answer to that question will disprove your application of Boneswords because it uses the same mechanic.

They are different, as in one it is the psyker inflicting the wounds, and the other it is the model that is suffering the wounds.

One has no bearing on the other.

Happyjew wrote:
But we can all agree that if you had X wounds from a BS/LW and Y Wounds from 2x BS, you would take two tests, right?

No, one test per model. as one or more wounds suffered by a model with boneswords triggers the test, and you only take one test per Tyranid with boneswords.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
But we can all agree that if you had X wounds from a BS/LW and Y Wounds from 2x BS, you would take two tests, right?

No, one test per model. as one or more wounds suffered by a model with boneswords triggers the test, and you only take one test per Tyranid with boneswords.

Despite the fact they are two different Wound Pools from two different models?

Yes, because any particular model can only "suffer one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword" once.

The second time he suffers wounds from a Tyranid with a bonesword he falls into the "one or more unsaved wounds" category, and since his test is already take he needs not test again, as he has fulfilled the requirements already.

And a nid with 2 swords is still a nid with a bonesword.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And a nid with 2 swords is still a nid with a bonesword.

But the 'nid with the two swords forces a different test, different number of dice.

Nope, it still forces the same test, just on a different number of dice.

Just like the ID test when a Psyker inflicts "one or more" wounds with a Force weapon, the ID rule is applied to ALL of the wounds. When a model suffers "one or more" wounds from a bonesword, the LD test is applied to ALL of the wounds.

Each wound carries the LD test, either 2d6 or 3d6 and must be applied after each wound. There is no exception to say otherwise and the rule does not say once per turn/phase etc.

You're right which means after passing the test you are good for the rest of the game, since any wounds after are "or more" wounds.

Fragile wrote:
Just like the ID test when a Psyker inflicts "one or more" wounds with a Force weapon, the ID rule is applied to ALL of the wounds. When a model suffers "one or more" wounds from a bonesword, the LD test is applied to ALL of the wounds.

Each wound carries the LD test, either 2d6 or 3d6 and must be applied after each wound. There is no exception to say otherwise and the rule does not say once per turn/phase etc.

Yes, the single LD test is applied to all of the wounds. Exactly as you said.
Your second paragraph is incorrect, however.

The rule only works "In close combat" so once you are no longer in the CC phase the models need to take additional tests for the next CC phase.

P.S. the force Weapon comparison has no bearing, as the two rules are worded differently.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule only works "In close combat" so once you are no longer in the CC phase the models need to take additional tests for the next CC phase.

P.S. the force Weapon comparison has no bearing, as the two rules are worded differently.

Got a page number to back that up?

-Matt

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Just like the ID test when a Psyker inflicts "one or more" wounds with a Force weapon, the ID rule is applied to ALL of the wounds. When a model suffers "one or more" wounds from a bonesword, the LD test is applied to ALL of the wounds.

Each wound carries the LD test, either 2d6 or 3d6 and must be applied after each wound. There is no exception to say otherwise and the rule does not say once per turn/phase etc.

Yes, the single LD test is applied to all of the wounds. Exactly as you said.
Your second paragraph is incorrect, however.

The second paragraph is RAW, everyone here has argued RAI, even as far as create timing to explain how it works. Wounds from a bonesword carry a special rule, and are their own pool. Every time one of those wounds is allocated that rule applies. Same as with Force weapons, every wound is ID. There is nothing in text that says you dont take a second LD test for each wound applied to the model.

So you're contradicting yourself? The bold section is the opposite of the second paragraph. The bold section is correct.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule only works "In close combat" so once you are no longer in the CC phase the models need to take additional tests for the next CC phase.

P.S. the force Weapon comparison has no bearing, as the two rules are worded differently.

Got a page number to back that up?

-Matt

"...If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a LD test or suffer instant death"
P83. Tyranid Codex

No, I'm not. The rule is applied to ALL the wounds that turn, same as the ID rule is applied to all the wounds from a Force weapon. That rule is " If a model takes one or more wounds it must make a LD test." Each case where the wound is allocated to a model, the trigger condition is met and must be resolved.

Just like a Force weapon from the Psyker who inflicted "one or more wounds", the ID rule is applied to each wound that is allocated.

You allocate the wound to a model. The model has sufffered "one or more unsaved wounds" and therefore must make a LD test. The second wound is allocated to the same model and it must make an LD test again because the rule is applied to every wound.

Its the same rule as the ID from Force weapons. The first unsaved wound is allocated, the ID rule is resolved. Then the second wound is allocated and the ID rule is applied again. Wounds have no memory of the prevoius wound. There is nothing in the Bonesword rule that states "At the end of the phase, IF a model took an unsaved wound, it must take an LD test...." You are trying to add that context to the wound allocation process, which it does not have.

Everyone is just focusing on the "or more". Every wound applied meets the "one or more" trigger. Therefore every wound's special rule must be resolved before moving on.
Did this wound cause "1 or more unsaved wounds"? Yes... test applies.

The rule is applied to all the wounds, but since the model has suffered one or more wounds, he needs to take a test.

Not a Test for each wound caused to that model.

One 1 test max per model.

Each time a model is allocated an unsaved wound we need to ask the question in the rule: Has this model that has suffered one or more wounds taken the required test?

If No: Take the test

If Yes: Do not take the test.

Your trying to apply it as a whole.

One 1 test max per model.

One test per wound, nothing states its only 1 test per CC as you suggest.

Each time a model is allocated an unsaved wound we need to ask the question in the rule: Has this model that has suffered one or more wounds taken the required test?

If No: Take the test

If Yes: Do not take the test.

Nothing in the rule suggests that it is only 1 test. Has a model that has taken a 2nd wound taken "1 or more". Yes. The wound will resolve with a test, since nothing in the bonesword rule limits it to once per CC/phase etc.

Its the same mechanic as the Psyker/Force Weapon. Each wound triggers an event, and nothing in RAW says that it is only once.

The line that says "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword" tells us that it is one test per model, as every wound after the first has already fulfilled that condition.

if a model takes a second wound, he has already tested and fulfilled the condition of needing a test for suffering one or more wounds.

If you suffer 5 wounds you need to make 1 test, as you have suffered one or more wounds in Close Combat.

Simple as that.

 DeathReaper wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule only works "In close combat" so once you are no longer in the CC phase the models need to take additional tests for the next CC phase.

P.S. the force Weapon comparison has no bearing, as the two rules are worded differently.

Got a page number to back that up?

-Matt

"...If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a LD test or suffer instant death"
P83. Tyranid Codex

And that doesn't specify time at all. Please bold out the part about In The Same Phase.
Or are you claiming that models are not in close combat at the end of the close combat phase?

Let me shoot that down with a rule:
Page 28 says you cannot shoot into or out of close combat. That kind of tells you that in the shooting phase, those models are still in "close combat".

Claiming that the tyranid bonesword rule effect cycles every combat phase is reading more into the bonesword rule that what RAW would support.


That said, we are left with a rule that doesn't mention when "... or more" takes place in reference to "Immediately pass a Ld test..."
Needs a FAQ.


-Matt

"in close combat" specifies time, as they talk about suffering unsaved wounds, and that only happens in the CC phase.

Plus it does not say it lasts longer than the CC phase.

Models are not suffering wounds in CC in the shooting phase, so that has no bearing. They are still locked in combat, as per the rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The line that says "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword" tells us that it is one test per model, as every wound after the first has already fulfilled that condition.

if a model takes a second wound, he has already tested and fulfilled the condition of needing a test for suffering one or more wounds.

If you suffer 5 wounds you need to make 1 test, as you have suffered one or more wounds in Close Combat.

Simple as that.

Again your stuck in 5th. You have no support for not resolving the test from suffering a 2nd wound.

"in close combat" is not a timing issue. Its clarifying that a model with a bonesword and a devourer, doesnt cause an ID test on a shooting attack.

The line that says "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword" tells us that subsequent wounds have no additional effect if the test is passed for that model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The line that says "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword" tells us that subsequent wounds have no additional effect if the test is passed for that model.

Where? I don't see where it says only 1 test is required for each wound allocated.