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 Kingsley wrote:
Except, y'know, the part where FW supplements aren't recognized in the 40k rulebook and the rest of them are. Derp.

Could you quote and provide a page number for the statement which says that only rules specifically mentioned in the 6th edition rulebook are allowed? Because until you do, it's very simple:

One source says "these rules are legal".

One source says nothing at all about the subject.

Conclusion: these rules are legal.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Except, y'know, the part where FW supplements aren't recognized in the 40k rulebook and the rest of them are. Derp.

Could you quote and provide a page number for the statement which says that only rules specifically mentioned in the 6th edition rulebook are allowed? Because until you do, it's very simple:

One source says "these rules are legal".

One source says nothing at all about the subject.

Conclusion: these rules are legal.

"The core rulebook doesn't say it's illegal, so it's legal?" By that standard, my fan Codex (that has "These rules are official, 100% GW approved!" stamped on it) is legal, because the core rulebook doesn't say it's not.

The core rulebook also doesn't say that the old Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness book is illegal, and that book says that it's legal, so I guess you better get ready for my 10 wound, 10 attack Greater Dæmon with a 90% chance of calling for support from d3 other Greater Dæmons!

 Kingsley wrote:
"The core rulebook doesn't say it's illegal, so it's legal?" By that standard, my fan Codex (that has "These rules are official, 100% GW approved!" stamped on it) is legal, because the core rulebook doesn't say it's not.

Sure, just as soon as GW publishes your fan codex and therefore validates your claim that it's official.

The core rulebook also doesn't say that the old Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness book is illegal, and that book says that it's legal, so I guess you better get ready for my 10 wound, 10 attack Greater Dæmon with a 90% chance of calling for support from d3 other Greater Dæmons!

Really? Your best comparison is a book that's many editions out of date and completely incompatible with the current rules? I guess I should be happy that you're forced to that level of desperation, but could you stop with the stupid examples?

 Peregrine wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You keep ignoring about half of that paragraph every time it's brought up, but that's not what it says.

That's exactly what it says.

And the other half is irrelevant. It says that you SHOULD make sure your opponent is happy to play against FW models, not that you MUST. All it's really saying is "some people hate FW, you'll avoid arguments if you just don't try to play against them", and it has nothing to do with a tournament environment where the TO will inform everyone that FW rules may be present.

So it's exactly what it says, but there's other stuff that you're writing off as irrelevant, but what was obviously what I was pointing out. Okay.

And if GW says its 100% official, why do I have to pay shipping when ordering a FW book or model through a GW store? I don't if I'm ordering a SM codex or model.

Because international shipping from the single warehouse which has the model you're ordering is expensive, and GW would rather charge you for it than make less profit? And anyway, what does the shipping cost have to do with whether something is official rulse-wise or not?

Your standing is that it's 100% gosh darn Gdub and there's no reason to think otherwise. If its still a separate sales channel, still stocked completely separately, still has to be shipped internationally, how 100% GW is it? I don't pay shipping when ordering a normal GW SKU, just the FW ones.

The GW I went to, when I was going to order, just went to the FW website and was filling out the order page for me. If the companies are separate enough that he can't order stock internally, why should I believe your claims that FW rules claims are GW official until GW confirms?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Except, y'know, the part where FW supplements aren't recognized in the 40k rulebook and the rest of them are. Derp.

Could you quote and provide a page number for the statement which says that only rules specifically mentioned in the 6th edition rulebook are allowed? Because until you do, it's very simple:

One source says "these rules are legal".

One source says nothing at all about the subject.

Conclusion: these rules are legal.

The 5th edition book had wording about the rule book and codexes are what you use to play the game. I haven't checked the 6th edition book.
Are the IA books codexes?

 Kingsley wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
Except it is. The books say they are. There is quite literally a written document from GW saying they are official!.

If that doesn't convince you, then you are a lost cause.

Forge World can say whatever they want in their own little bubble-- I'm reading my 6th edition rulebook right now, and funnily enough Forge World never gets a mention, even in the hobby section about expansions to the game-- which even includes Black Library novels and 40k expansion books that came out during 4th edition!

Forge world have been integrated into the fold you bring the fact it does state in your rule book about them being official yet on page 294 there is a chaos army containing the chaos warhound that the rules didn't come out in a 'standard' gw expansion but a forgeworld one, just because it isn't written down in the rule book doesn't mean its not true, even int the apocalypse pages on 376-377 it is using the reaver titan, the ork mega dread and the ork fighta's so items that are not just apocalypse only.

if they are 'legal' for that game why wouldn't the ork mega dread be legal in a game when the rules state its a heavy support option?

The rule book points to the use of forgeworld in games so it doesn't create a good defense by using it.

led571 wrote:
Forge world have been integrated into the fold you bring the fact it does state in your rule book about them being official yet on page 294 there is a chaos army containing the chaos warhound that the rules didn't come out in a 'standard' gw expansion but a forgeworld one, just because it isn't written down in the rule book doesn't mean its not true, even int the apocalypse pages on 376-377 it is using the reaver titan, the ork mega dread and the ork fighta's so items that are not just apocalypse only.

if they are 'legal' for that game why wouldn't the ork mega dread be legal in a game when the rules state its a heavy support option?

The rule book points to the use of forgeworld in games so it doesn't create a good defense by using it.

Page 294 is nothing more than a two-page spread of painted models, an introduction to the Chaos painted model showcase it would seem, with no other text on it other than "The Great Enemy" at the top. How in the unholy feth you interpreted this as "FW being integrated into the fold" is beyond me, because these pages are literally "Look at the pretty models!" and nothing else. There are two titans marching behind a horde of Chaos guys because it looks cool, not because GW wants you to bring two Chaos warhounds with you to every game and tournament you play in.

Pages 376-377 are about Apocalypse, and show an Apocalypse game being played. Literally everything is legal in Apocalypse, I do believe that was the entire point of that expansion, that's why you see both regular and FW models being used. Not really sure what the point was supposed to be here but considering everything about these two pages is Apocalypse I don't really see how it's at all relevant to the discussion of what's legal in "normal" games.

If you read the disclaimer at the beginning of the books you will realize it says that: words, pictures, rules are property of GW.

This means that the rules PUBLISHED by FW are PROPERTY of GW.

A bit later it says the rules are to be considered "Official". Now this is not FW saying they are official. It is FW saying they are official on GW's behalf and with their approval.

How much more official do you want?

Given the fact that GW has little hesitation to go after people or companies who infringes on any of their IP. Do you HONESTLY think they would let someone publish official rules and let them operate for years without approving it?

Do you HONESTLY think that GW does not know what FW does and publishes?

Some people are just lost causes when it comes to reason and logic.

If you want to ban FW in your tournament, fine. But be honest about the reason:

"It's not official" is not one of them. It has been proven, in many ways.
"Balance" in an unbalanced game is not a very good one either.
"Not many people know the rules", well when a new codex comes out not many people know the rules either. The codex is not banned why would FW?

Main reason I think is fear. Plain and simple fear.

Fear of having the meta upset and a few netlist become obsolete.

My group allows FW. Not everyone uses it but everyone accepts it.

Refusing to play against FW is seen as forfeit.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
How much more official do you want?

A GW book that says it.
"It is a GW book!" No, it's not. It's a FW book that GW publishes. They're separate companies with separate supply chains and separate everything.
Forgeworld is saying Forgeworld is official.
edit: And even then they throw in a caveat.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Given the fact that GW has little hesitation to go after people or companies who infringes on any of their IP. Do you HONESTLY think they would let someone publish official rules and let them operate for years without approving it?

Do you HONESTLY think that GW does not know what FW does and publishes?

Some people are just lost causes when it comes to reason and logic.

I think it's fething hilarious that you honestly believe that this is what we believe: that FW is just a third party model/bits producer like Chapterhouse that somehow flew under GW's radar for a decade or more, despite getting pimped in every single White Dwarf, at their Games Days, etc.

Go on, beat the gak out of that straw man, show him who's boss.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
How much more official do you want?

A GW book that says it.
"It is a GW book!" No, it's not. It's a FW book that GW publishes. They're separate companies with separate supply chains and separate everything.
Forgeworld is saying Forgeworld is official.
edit: And even then they throw in a caveat.

A caveat which is somehow "irrelevant".

And on the note of "separate everything" that includes a separate design team that works independently of the main studio. GW putting their logo on FW publications and models doesn't change the fact that you have a different batch of sculptors working on them, and a different batch of designers writing the rules.

So what's the fething idea here exactly? GW and FW are the same, but they're different? If FW really had GW's full support then why keep everything separate? Why do GW always act so wishy-washy about FW and refuse to say anything one way or the other? That's what's so amusing about this whole fething argument, GW could really put a stop to it easily if they wanted to, but they don't. Even their inaction could be interpreted one of several different ways: the pro-FW crowd would obviously claim that they don't "need" to say anything as they already did in the FW books themselves, and personally I view it as GW purposely distancing themselves from FW, maybe simply out of fear that making a decision one way or the other would ultimately hurt sales, so they deliberately stay out of the debate and let the nerds fight amongst themselves, as long as they keep spending money it's a win for them.

 Kingsley wrote:


"The core rulebook doesn't say it's illegal, so it's legal?" By that standard, my fan Codex (that has "These rules are official, 100% GW approved!" stamped on it) is legal, because the core rulebook doesn't say it's not.

The core rulebook also doesn't say that the old Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness book is illegal, and that book says that it's legal, so I guess you better get ready for my 10 wound, 10 attack Greater Dæmon with a 90% chance of calling for support from d3 other Greater Dæmons!

The greater demon from the slaves to darkness book was also 1250 points and suffered from instability. a champ 8 berzerkers and a greater demon would be your list and half the time you couldn't take a greater demon. since the realms of chaos list would need to be generated before each game. the two hour tourney time would get wasted as you rolled up your chaos list you could take.

 Sidstyler wrote:

And on the note of "separate everything" that includes a separate design team that works independently of the main studio. GW putting their logo on FW publications and models doesn't change the fact that you have a different batch of sculptors working on them, and a different batch of designers writing the rules.

Just to inject some truth here, the sculptors are not always different. Juan Diaz, Brian Nelson, Trish Carden, and several other GW sculptors all have FW credits. They work in the same building even.

You're being willfully ignorant if you don't believe that there is interchange of ideas and talent between the two working groups.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Fear of having the meta upset and a few netlist become obsolete.

If you think allowing FW will be the death of "netlists" then you're wrong. All it means is there will be new netlists that utilize the most broken/efficient FW units instead.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

And on the note of "separate everything" that includes a separate design team that works independently of the main studio. GW putting their logo on FW publications and models doesn't change the fact that you have a different batch of sculptors working on them, and a different batch of designers writing the rules.

Just to inject some truth here, the sculptors are not always different. Juan Diaz, Brian Nelson, Trish Carden, and several other GW sculptors all have FW credits. They work in the same building even.

You're being willfully ignorant if you don't believe that there is interchange of ideas and talent between the two working groups.

And yet FW themselves supposedly came out and said at the open day this year that they "have very few links with the main design studio". Supposedly they knew nothing of 6th edition or how they would integrate their stuff with the new rules at the time.

Some interchange of ideas and talent I'm willing to accept, but apparently not a lot, and especially when it comes to the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
How much more official do you want?

A GW book that says it.
"It is a GW book!" No, it's not. It's a FW book that GW publishes. They're separate companies with separate supply chains and separate everything.
Forgeworld is saying Forgeworld is official.
edit: And even then they throw in a caveat.

© Copyright Games Workshop Limited 2011, Games Workshop, the Games Workshop logo, GW, 40k, Citadel and the Citadel Device, Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000, the Warhammer 40,000 logo, the Aquila logo, Forge World and the Forge World logo, Imperial Armour, and all associated marks, logos, devices, names, characters, illustrations and images from the Warhammer 40,000 universe are ®, TM and/or © Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2011, where applicable registered in the UK and other countries around the world. All Rights Reserved.


How much more obvious does it get?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
How much more official do you want?

A GW book that says it.
"It is a GW book!" No, it's not. It's a FW book that GW publishes. They're separate companies with separate supply chains and separate everything.
Forgeworld is saying Forgeworld is official.
edit: And even then they throw in a caveat.

© Copyright Games Workshop Limited 2011, Games Workshop, the Games Workshop logo, GW, 40k, Citadel and the Citadel Device, Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000, the Warhammer 40,000 logo, the Aquila logo, Forge World and the Forge World logo, Imperial Armour, and all associated marks, logos, devices, names, characters, illustrations and images from the Warhammer 40,000 universe are ®, TM and/or © Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2011, where applicable registered in the UK and other countries around the world. All Rights Reserved.
How much more obvious does it get?

I bolded the part that you obviously missed.
Yes, they're the parent company. That doesn't mean that the child absolutely speaks for the parent.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, they're the parent company. That doesn't mean that the child absolutely speaks for the parent.

"Some people are just lost causes when it comes to reason and logic."

 Sidstyler wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, they're the parent company. That doesn't mean that the child absolutely speaks for the parent.

"Some people are just lost causes when it comes to reason and logic."

Yeah, I'm completely illogical. Except not.

I've shown that they're separate companies when it comes to stocking and ordering. Some people are taking the fact that GW is the publisher for FW books and making the leap that everything FW prints is 100% GW gospel official. They aren't the same company, no matter how much I get insulted for saying so.

Kingsley wrote:
Until GW itself-- not FW, no matter how "official" they say they are or aren't-- says FW is official, it isn't.

Says you. GW says otherwise. FW books are GW publications written by GW employees with GW copyrights written at GW corporate HQ withe explicit statements saying "yes, we're official".

At this point you're just covering your ears and saying "lalalalala can't hear you".

There's a reason GW doesn't mention FW stuff in their rulebook and doesn't allow it at their events

Yes, but not necessarily because it's not "official". There have been plenty of reasons elaborated as to why.

and pretending there isn't is growing very tedious.

Only because you're telling yourself that and aren't going to change your mind no matter what you're presented with.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
How much more official do you want?

A GW book that says it.
"It is a GW book!" No, it's not. It's a FW book that GW publishes. They're separate companies with separate supply chains and separate everything.
Forgeworld is saying Forgeworld is official.
edit: And even then they throw in a caveat.

Methinks you are confused as to what exactly FW is. FW is not a distinct company, it's not even a subsidiary. It's an internal GW department just like IT, the Design Studio, or anything else. It's nothing more than Games Workshop *doing business as* Forgeworld. It's a fairly common practice. They are not completely separate companies, disabuse yourself of that notion now. They are located at the same building as the rest of GW, use GW email and phone systems, park in the same parking lot, and have their paychecks cut by the accounting office as Phil Kelly and Mat Ward and Jeremy Vetock and Robbin Cruddace do.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, they're the parent company. That doesn't mean that the child absolutely speaks for the parent.

"Some people are just lost causes when it comes to reason and logic."

Yeah, I'm completely illogical. Except not.

I've shown that they're separate companies when it comes to stocking and ordering. Some people are taking the fact that GW is the publisher for FW books and making the leap that everything FW prints is 100% GW gospel official. They aren't the same company, no matter how much I get insulted for saying so.

Well I was actually agreeing with you, lol. Sorry.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
How much more official do you want?

A GW book that says it.
"It is a GW book!" No, it's not. It's a FW book that GW publishes. They're separate companies with separate supply chains and separate everything.
Forgeworld is saying Forgeworld is official.
edit: And even then they throw in a caveat.

© Copyright Games Workshop Limited 2011, Games Workshop, the Games Workshop logo, GW, 40k, Citadel and the Citadel Device, Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000, the Warhammer 40,000 logo, the Aquila logo, Forge World and the Forge World logo, Imperial Armour, and all associated marks, logos, devices, names, characters, illustrations and images from the Warhammer 40,000 universe are ®, TM and/or © Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2011, where applicable registered in the UK and other countries around the world. All Rights Reserved.
How much more obvious does it get?

I bolded the part that you obviously missed.
Yes, they're the parent company. That doesn't mean that the child absolutely speaks for the parent.

Everything in the book is Copyright Games Workshop. Games Workshop is publishing a book that says the 40k units in it are official.

A bit further up on that page we can read the following: First published in Great Britain in 2011 by Forge World, Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS. If the book in question is © Games Workshop, is published by Games Workshop and even has the Games Workshop logo on it, I'd assume that it's a Games Workshop product, no? If the parent company didn't stand for everything in the book, why would they print it in the first place?

I'm still on the fence about the inclusion of Forge World but I'm just going to bring this point up again as I don't feel that it has been fully answered yet. Please don't take me for arguing against the inclusion of Forge World, I'd just like to see a valid answer for this.

If Forge World is so official, then why does GW not allow it in their own tournaments?

 Rampage wrote:
I'm still on the fence about the inclusion of Forge World but I'm just going to bring this point up again as I don't feel that it has been fully answered yet. Please don't take me for arguing against the inclusion of Forge World, I'd just like to see a valid answer for this.

If Forge World is so official, then why does GW not allow it at their own tournaments?

It's been up like 5 times the last 5 pages; they don't allow more than 500 points in allies either. They don't follow their own rules.

 Sidstyler wrote:

And yet FW themselves supposedly came out and said at the open day this year that they "have very few links with the main design studio". Supposedly they knew nothing of 6th edition or how they would integrate their stuff with the new rules at the time.

And yet they had a full colour book ready to go within two months of the release of 6th ed, full of 6th ed rules for their flyers. This sounds like the sort of thing that would require foreknowledge of both the rules, and how they'd integrate. Almost as if they had worked with the people at the same company, in the same building.

Denial of the obvious is not a very successful tactic. There are some legitimate concerns about including Forgeworld in tournaments. The officiality of FW models is not one of them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
I'm still on the fence about the inclusion of Forge World but I'm just going to bring this point up again as I don't feel that it has been fully answered yet. Please don't take me for arguing against the inclusion of Forge World, I'd just like to see a valid answer for this.

If Forge World is so official, then why does GW not allow it at their own tournaments?

It's been up like 5 times the last 5 pages; they don't allow more than 500 points in allies either. They don't follow their own rules.

I know, I put it there a couple of times. I don't think I've seen that point mentioned before though, and I would say that's a valid point. If that point has been mentioned before then I must have missed it, I'll drop that question now.

 Redbeard wrote:

And yet they had a full colour book ready to go within two months of the release of 6th ed, full of 6th ed rules for their flyers. This sounds like the sort of thing that would require foreknowledge of both the rules, and how they'd integrate. Almost as if they had worked with the people at the same company, in the same building.

FW also had their FAQ's out within 2 weeks of 6th edition. Again, something you can't do if you don't have access to them for some time.

Saying GW and FW don't know what the other is doing is a weak argument for not allowing FW in tournaments. There are better angles to take...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Everything in the book is Copyright Games Workshop. Games Workshop is publishing a book that says the 40k units in it are official.

A bit further up on that page we can read the following: First published in Great Britain in 2011 by Forge World, Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS. If the book in question is © Games Workshop, is published by Games Workshop and even has the Games Workshop logo on it, I'd assume that it's a Games Workshop product, no? If the parent company didn't stand for everything in the book, why would they print it in the first place?

No, I wouldn't assume that. Can you go to games-workshop.com and buy it?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160002 That's the only Apocalypse book on GW's site.

It's copyright GW, etc. because GW owns all the copyrights that FW uses - FW just licenses the rights. Is the Dawn of War series of video games a GW product?
Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War -- Copyright © Games Workshop Limited 2008. (http://www.dawnofwargame.com/uk/home/agegate)

 Redbeard wrote:
There are some legitimate concerns about including Forgeworld in tournaments. The officiality of FW models is not one of them.

I'd like to know what counts as a legitimate concern then, since everything I've seen brought up so far has just been immediately written off.

1. yes a list of units and where the rules are would need to be crafted. it is more work for a TO.

2.what forgeworld units are broken?

I prefer if FW units are allowed since i have several units i would like to bring but it should be TO's choice since it is more work for him.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Everything in the book is Copyright Games Workshop. Games Workshop is publishing a book that says the 40k units in it are official.

A bit further up on that page we can read the following: First published in Great Britain in 2011 by Forge World, Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS. If the book in question is © Games Workshop, is published by Games Workshop and even has the Games Workshop logo on it, I'd assume that it's a Games Workshop product, no? If the parent company didn't stand for everything in the book, why would they print it in the first place?

No, I wouldn't assume that. Can you go to games-workshop.com and buy it?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160002 That's the only Apocalypse book on GW's site.

It's copyright GW, etc. because GW owns all the copyrights that FW uses - FW just licenses the rights. Is the Dawn of War series of video games a GW product?
Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War -- Copyright © Games Workshop Limited 2008. (http://www.dawnofwargame.com/uk/home/agegate)

You're still under this weird assumption for whatever reason that FW is it's own company...it's not.

It's Games Workshop DBA Forgeworld. Nothing is being licensed, it's all GW, the people who work at Forgeworld are GW employees working in a GW department simply doing business under a different name for market differentiation.

 Vaktathi wrote:
You're still under this weird assumption for whatever reason that FW is it's own company...it's not.

I don't believe that anyone honestly believes that. It's being obtuse in the base case, or intentionally trolling in the worst case.

I don't have time for such boorish behavior. You should ignore anyone that says such things.

 Vaktathi wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Everything in the book is Copyright Games Workshop. Games Workshop is publishing a book that says the 40k units in it are official.

A bit further up on that page we can read the following: First published in Great Britain in 2011 by Forge World, Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS. If the book in question is © Games Workshop, is published by Games Workshop and even has the Games Workshop logo on it, I'd assume that it's a Games Workshop product, no? If the parent company didn't stand for everything in the book, why would they print it in the first place?

No, I wouldn't assume that. Can you go to games-workshop.com and buy it?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160002 That's the only Apocalypse book on GW's site.

It's copyright GW, etc. because GW owns all the copyrights that FW uses - FW just licenses the rights. Is the Dawn of War series of video games a GW product?
Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War -- Copyright © Games Workshop Limited 2008. (http://www.dawnofwargame.com/uk/home/agegate)

You're still under this weird assumption for whatever reason that FW is it's own company...it's not.

It's Games Workshop DBA Forgeworld. Nothing is being licensed, it's all GW, the people who work at Forgeworld are GW employees working in a GW department simply doing business under a different name for market differentiation.

With a different supply chain and lots of other differences...

edit: Also, I was being told that the GW copyright is what makes it a GW book. I've shown that the GW copyright is on the DoW games and therefore is not alone evidence that it is a GW book.
And everywhere I've seen has Forgeworld being a separate company - where do you see that they're DBA? (I could be completely blind)
And no kronk, I'm not being obtuse nor trolling. Go ahead and keep insulting me though - it's cool.