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 schadenfreude wrote:
Actually the bigger issue is play balance. Fw has a lot of artillery that was competitively priced in 5th ed, the thing is it's really under priced in 6th ed under the new artillery rules. For the cost of 1 of your oblits with mon dkok can buy a t7 4w basilisk cannon that comes with 4 guardsmen that are also t7 and have a point left over, and like oblits dkok artillery also can come in squads of 3.

And of course this is all theory since we haven't seen an artillery spam list consistently winning tournaments. Seriously, as a former MTG player the attitude of a lot of the 40k community is just hilarious. You'll never see MTG cards/decks banned without consistent tournament results showing a broken and un-fun metagame, but somehow 40k players feel that they can predict the metagame in theory and declare what needs to be banned without seeing even a single major tournament result.

I find it hard to wrap my head around to notion that someone would consider the models/rules not 'intended' for use in the game.

Why else would they create the rules for them?

The mere fact that they are produced by the company that makes the game makes them official, regardless of vague and unnecessary rules in the rulebook(s). It doesn't need specific permission.

All they need to do is indicate which specific game they are for, which they do.

It's hard to imagine any other company handling rules this way, but it's GW we're talking about.

Rules for random units scattered across a monthly magazine? Check.

Rules for an entire codex in a limited edition issue of said magazine? Check.

Rules for various tanks/artillery/units scattered across 10-12 volumes of direct-order-only books? Check.

Some of those units' rules in online PDFs? Check.

Some of those units' rules repeated in various volumes without an official comprehensive list of which ones have been updated (i.e., you need to either use muwhe's Adepticon list, or search/buy the latest volume to see if it's been changed)? Check.

And to top it all off, a statement at the front of those books saying some form of the statement that the models are use by permission only? Check.

In short, don't blame the players, compare the rules to MtG, etc etc. Other games, such as MtG, or even Warmachine/Hordes, have absurdly tight rulesets by comparison. With GW, a lot of times it feels like throwing darts at a dart board.

That's why players are never sure about allowing FW models and lists. GW themselves aren't sure. If PP sold rulebooks direct-only that had what appeared to be somewhat "optional" rules, and then updated some units but not others in later editions, put out rules for some in PDFs, etc etc... well, it's just impossible to imagine because they would never do such a thing.

Any game requires a clear ruleset. The problem here is that it's hard to know what the rules are. You need a list like this to know what is in use. I REALLY applaud Adepticon for putting this together. But for people to just say "the rules are a click away!" and think it will be easy to allow FW in an event, without putting the effort into making a document like this listing what the most current rules are- I think it's a bit naive. As Blackmoor said, without this, Someone is going to come with an old set of rules, and how will the TO/players even know?

http://www.adepticon.org/12rules/201240KIAApoc.pdf

That's an amazing document! But it also illustrates how complicated it is to know where the most current ruleset is for every available FW unit out there... which, supposedly, a TO allowing them will know, so that they can handle any rules disputes that come up.

If a TO has truly done their homework like this, I'd be happy to attend an event where they allow FW. If, on the other hand, they simply buy into the partisan debate and say "I'm always allowing FW no matter what" without doing the legwork to be ready for it... then no, I would not attend their event.

Long story short: I'd be happy to attend a FW-allowing event at Adepticon. I'd be MUCH less inclined to do so at a local RTT or the like, where I know they haven't put the work into it like this, and won't be prepared for the issues that could come up.

 RiTides wrote:


And to top it all off, a statement at the front of those books saying some form of the statement that the models are use by permission only? Check.

Well I guess it is an election year so making stuff up is normal but this no longer appears in the front of new forgeworld books. it says that stuff with the 40k stamp is offical prepare to share the rules with your opponent.
Games workshop doesn't say which codex's are legal either.

There is a tourney coming up that doesn't say no to forgeworld but it doesn't say yes either. I am going to roll into the event on saturday morning with my grot tanks and see if the organizer will wave away the $90 entrance fee. if he does, I will go home.

 skkipper wrote:
. I am going to roll into the event on saturday morning with my grot tanks and see if the organizer will wave away the $90 entrance fee. if he does, I will go home.

Why don't you just call and ask and save everyone some time?

skkipper, that's not what it says either.

MVBrandt, a respected TO, has posted here that he views the current language as still requiring permission.

The exact wording has been dissected several times in this thread.

I was not wanting to bring up that ground- it's been covered- only to point out one of a long list of failings by GW to be clear. Your tone really wasn't needed.

As for showing up at a tourney intentionally without letting a TO know you're bringing FW and basically daring him to stop you- that's pretty poor form, imo.

I don't think you're doing yourself any favors comparing this to election hysteria, then taking a nonobjective stance on it. Chances are, the TO will be a cool guy and let you use them- but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have given him a heads up. I know I'd appreciate it if I were the TO... gives him a chance to read the rules for that particular FW unit and be prepared to make rules calls relating to it.

yeah is it assy to cram it in? sure is. I feel that forcing the issue with money is the best way forward. here is the $90 entry fee, my list has forgeworld units, take it or leave it.
When a TO has bucked up for hotel space, the extra entrance fees could make a difference to breaking even. I know a couple of my gaming buddies might go along with me. so then we have 5-6 entrance fees hinging on the last minute inclusion. having $400 walking out the door due to forge world exclusion pushes the FW inclusion agenda.

 skkipper wrote:
yeah is it assy to cram it in? sure is. I feel that forcing the issue with money is the best way forward. here is the $90 entry fee, my list has forgeworld units, take it or leave it.
When a TO has bucked up for hotel space, the extra entrance fees could make a difference to breaking even. I know a couple of my gaming buddies might go along with me. so then we have 5-6 entrance fees hinging on the last minute inclusion. having $400 walking out the door due to forge world exclusion pushes the FW inclusion agenda.

And if I was the TO I'd have no choice but to send you walking. You're essentially trying to bribe me into letting it in without allowing me to think about the effects it might have on the rest of the attendees. I can't in good conscience allow that, regardless of my feelings about FW units.

rigeld2 wrote:
And if I was the TO I'd have no choice but to send you walking. You're essentially trying to bribe me into letting it in without allowing me to think about the effects it might have on the rest of the attendees. I can't in good conscience allow that, regardless of my feelings about FW units.

which is fine. at his next event, he will see the loss in revenue that his choice makes and will probaly update his rules. having 10% of the tourney money walk out the door will be painfull. Most TO's will not take threats of a boycott seriously. giving them a solid example, is a learning tool.

 skkipper wrote:

which is fine. at his next event, he will see the loss in revenue that his choice makes and will probaly update his rules. having 10% of the tourney money walk out the door will be painfull. Most TO's will not take threats of a boycott seriously. giving them a solid example, is a learning tool.

Yeah, you really gotta teach those pesky TOs who's the boss...

 HudsonD wrote:

 skkipper wrote:

which is fine. at his next event, he will see the loss in revenue that his choice makes and will probaly update his rules. having 10% of the tourney money walk out the door will be painfull. Most TO's will not take threats of a boycott seriously. giving them a solid example, is a learning tool.

Yeah, you really gotta teach those pesky TOs who's the boss...

gamers with money are the boss. without gamers the TO's have no customers. We can play just fine with out TO's.

 skkipper wrote:


gamers with money are the boss. without gamers the TO's have no customers. We can play just fine with out TO's.

Then why do you go to tournaments ?

Of course, the TO is not the only one you are trying to boss around.
You are also trying to force all the other players to do as you want.
Who cares about them, after all. It's not like you need other players to have fun!

At the next tourney, other gamers may fill those spots. At least, if this were a GT.

If it were a local RTT, chances are gamers know each other, and the TO probably would really appreciate his gaming acquaintances giving him a heads up.

If you and your group are 10%, you might get your way at a local event, but you probably would by asking nicely, too. But if you talk your friends into it, you can no longer plead ignorance- it will be obvious it was deliberately "sprung" on the TO instead of giving notice.

If you're that adamant, a simple phone call of "I want to bring grot tanks, or not attend" would do it.

If this were a GT, paid in advance, you wouldn't have this option- they'd have every right to refuse your using them, without refund. In a sense, you're also springing it on your opponents, too.

But at an event you didn't pay for upfront? Sure, you can get away with that. Should you? I think that's pretty obvious. Be a gentleman, as you normally are, and call the TO ahead of time. It's the courteous thing to do, and what would be required at Any major event that you'd paid for upfront, as you know very well.

So you will be organizing your own next event? Without the effort of TOs to put on events you're stuck playing at a local club and/or home.
TOs deserve a better attitude than what you're offering. They are organizing an event for your benefit and you want them to kowtow to your agenda without even the courtesy of an advance contact. I'm not a TO and never have been but, if you came to me with a take it or leave it attitude I'd say, "Go home and find yourself a new tourney/organizer for next year."

I go to tourneys to hang with friends. it gives me a solid chunk of gaming in a weekend. my last event was adepticon.

how is the inclusion of forgeworld forcing anybody to change?
oh my flyer spam list might not work any more oh nos!!!!

every codex forces people to change.
so when you bring a fleet of valk's or croisannt airwing, you are showing you care about other gamers?


the one day events at my local store already allows forgeworld.

you are right TO's put a lot of work into an event, but if you get a group of people to force the TO to change. he should listen. it is a 50 person event typically but the numbers vary a bit. 5-10 gamers walking away can change a mind. people with forgeworld have money and they are the gamers TO's want. As we generally play for fun and coolness rather then being power gamers.

 Peregrine wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Actually the bigger issue is play balance. Fw has a lot of artillery that was competitively priced in 5th ed, the thing is it's really under priced in 6th ed under the new artillery rules. For the cost of 1 of your oblits with mon dkok can buy a t7 4w basilisk cannon that comes with 4 guardsmen that are also t7 and have a point left over, and like oblits dkok artillery also can come in squads of 3.

And of course this is all theory since we haven't seen an artillery spam list consistently winning tournaments. Seriously, as a former MTG player the attitude of a lot of the 40k community is just hilarious. You'll never see MTG cards/decks banned without consistent tournament results showing a broken and un-fun metagame, but somehow 40k players feel that they can predict the metagame in theory and declare what needs to be banned without seeing even a single major tournament result.

MTG type 2 doesn't allow the use of first release duel lands, black lotus, or mox gems so that's a bad analogy. The game wasn't as thoroughly balanced and playtested back then. Forge world isn't as throughly vetted and playtested as gw 40k, and many units/armies are not concerting into 6th in a balanced way. You also did nothing to stand up for dkok to disprove my point.

 skkipper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And if I was the TO I'd have no choice but to send you walking. You're essentially trying to bribe me into letting it in without allowing me to think about the effects it might have on the rest of the attendees. I can't in good conscience allow that, regardless of my feelings about FW units.

which is fine. at his next event, he will see the loss in revenue that his choice makes and will probaly update his rules. having 10% of the tourney money walk out the door will be painfull. Most TO's will not take threats of a boycott seriously. giving them a solid example, is a learning tool.

Ah yes, the age old excuse for bullying, educating people. Indoctrinating may be more accurate I suppose.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 skkipper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And if I was the TO I'd have no choice but to send you walking. You're essentially trying to bribe me into letting it in without allowing me to think about the effects it might have on the rest of the attendees. I can't in good conscience allow that, regardless of my feelings about FW units.

which is fine. at his next event, he will see the loss in revenue that his choice makes and will probaly update his rules. having 10% of the tourney money walk out the door will be painfull. Most TO's will not take threats of a boycott seriously. giving them a solid example, is a learning tool.

Ah yes, the age old excuse for bullying, educating people. Indoctrinating may be more accurate I suppose.

yep I am totaling bullying with my money and forcing FW allowance. What's the problem with that?
I am forcing a TO to include FW or lose players. I am doing it in am aggresive in his face way. Which speaks much louder then internet tough guy threats.

 skkipper wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 skkipper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And if I was the TO I'd have no choice but to send you walking. You're essentially trying to bribe me into letting it in without allowing me to think about the effects it might have on the rest of the attendees. I can't in good conscience allow that, regardless of my feelings about FW units.

which is fine. at his next event, he will see the loss in revenue that his choice makes and will probaly update his rules. having 10% of the tourney money walk out the door will be painfull. Most TO's will not take threats of a boycott seriously. giving them a solid example, is a learning tool.

Ah yes, the age old excuse for bullying, educating people. Indoctrinating may be more accurate I suppose.

yep I am totaling bullying with my money and forcing FW allowance. What's the problem with that?
I am forcing a TO to include FW or lose players. I am doing it in am aggresive in his face way. Which speaks much louder then internet tough guy threats.

It's the calculated way you're doing it coupled with the underhanded and overtly forceful tactics that's the problem. If you can't see how that is a problem then I don't know what to tell you. It's just plain rude on the most basic level and outright TFG bullying on the top. Anyway you clearly aren't going to get that since you're admitting you are going to do "it in an aggressive and in his face way" so I won't waste anymore time on this portion of the discussion. What you're saying you want to do isn't simply voting with your wallet and attendance, please don't pretend it is.

Well, it depends skkipper. If you knew that ForgeWorld wasn't allowed prior to signing up and arriving at the event--but then threatened the TO with leaving/demanding a refund when they followed their tournament rules---well yeah, to be frank, that's pretty rude.

The reason it's rude is;

1. You blatantly broke a rule you knew before hand by bringing the list, which not only is disrespectful to the TO--but disrespectful to all of the other players that perhaps signed up knowing there was not FW allowed.
2. You took seats/spots in a tournament that other players would have been happy to fill, regardless if FW was allowed or not.

That's not voting with your wallet. Voting with your wallet is choosing not to attend the tournament when you see the restrictions. Purposefully taking a spot from other players, knowing you will not abide by the rules, then demanding they allow your (already disallowed) units or walking away with your money is blackmail.

It certainly does speak much louder, skkipper... I just think you should step back and rethink how you plan to go about it.

A phone call letting him know your position would accomplish the same thing, and be much more likely to avoid making enemies.

You can't say you are the type of player TOs want (play for fun, etc) then in the same sentence talk about how you'll strong-arm the TO.

Just rethink how you plan to go about it, man... there are a lot of better ways to get to the same end goal. If anything, you may cause the TO to view gamers wanting FW in a different light than you intend, and different from how you are usually... and that would be a shame.

Why stop at the inclusion of FW ?
Why not ask to be allowed to use every mini you have ?

Yes, the tournament was announced in advance.
Yes, the point limit was posted.
But if you get a group of your friends to agree, the TO will have to increase the point limit to whatever you want!

Or you could just not go to events where FW is not allowed.
You know, like people who do not think that FW should be allowed can just not go to events where it is allowed.

yep I am totaling bullying with my money and forcing FW allowance. What's the problem with that?
I am forcing a TO to include FW or lose players. I am doing it in am aggresive in his face way. Which speaks much louder then internet tough guy threats.

The tone of this really makes me think you must be secretly anti-Forgeworld.

Personally I think tournaments shpuld take a de facto stance of allowing FW and specifically disallowing according to organiser whim. But the current de facto stance at tournaments is 'No Forgeworld' and I think turning up on the day with FW in your list is not merely being deliberately and unecessarily confrontational (why not email first to ask and save the grief?), but also potentially spoiling the event for others if late withdrawal by 4-5 folk with an pre-meditated agenda causes disruption at the start.

because we are not late withdrawing, he sells tickets the morning of the event as well as beforehand.
We will show up with forgeworld in the list and say turn us away if you wish.

my blood slaughter(so overpowered!!!!!)


oh and the broken decimator

Yeah, but why not just email first and ask?

It saves all the grief.

I understand the notion that 'direct action' will bring results, but in fact it never works as a long-term strategy unless loads of folk do it in widespread locatations and usually over a period of time.

In this instance, if 5-6 folk were willing to submit lists that depended on FW rules in advance, the TO could make a rational decision. f you turn up on the dy throwing wild ultimatums about, he'll be a lot less likely to accede i'd have thought as that might then royally piss off people who've already paid.

 skkipper wrote:
because we are not late withdrawing, he sells tickets the morning of the event as well as beforehand.
We will show up with forgeworld in the list and say turn us away if you wish.

*Grin*---then if he is not potentially out any money due to your purposefully withdrawing the day of the event, what effect would it have?


Or, let's be more specific. Adepticon is particular about what they allow in their tournaments each year regarding FW. The TT/Championship sells out every year within days of being up.


Would you consider it proper to sign up for that tournament, knowing that you were going to bring disallowed/illegal FW units--then demand they allow those units the day of the event or you'll walk with a refund?

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 skkipper wrote:
because we are not late withdrawing, he sells tickets the morning of the event as well as beforehand.
We will show up with forgeworld in the list and say turn us away if you wish.

*Grin*---then if he is not potentially out any money due to your purposefully withdrawing the day of the event, what effect would it have?


Or, let's be more specific. Adepticon is particular about what they allow in their tournaments each regarding FW. The TT/Championship sells out every year within days of being up.


Would you consider it proper to sign up for that tournament, knowing that you were going to bring disallowed/illegal FW units--then demand they allow those units the day of the event or you'll walk with a refund?

adepticon sells out quickly every year, they also allow forgeworld in most events. It is at a way different league. 1 gamer or 50 gamers really doesn't matter to them. huge events can't be effected in this way. I am sad that i can't make it to adepticon in 2013 since work will have me in japan for the first 6 months of the year.

 skkipper wrote:

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 skkipper wrote:
because we are not late withdrawing, he sells tickets the morning of the event as well as beforehand.
We will show up with forgeworld in the list and say turn us away if you wish.

*Grin*---then if he is not potentially out any money due to your purposefully withdrawing the day of the event, what effect would it have?


Or, let's be more specific. Adepticon is particular about what they allow in their tournaments each regarding FW. The TT/Championship sells out every year within days of being up.


Would you consider it proper to sign up for that tournament, knowing that you were going to bring disallowed/illegal FW units--then demand they allow those units the day of the event or you'll walk with a refund?

adepticon sells out quickly every year, they also allow forgeworld in most events. It is at a way different league. 1 gamer or 50 gamers really doesn't matter to them. huge events can't be effected in this way. I am sad that i can't make it to adepticon in 2013 since work will have me in japan for the first 6 months of the year.

FW is not generally allowed in the 40k Championship, unless it's Counts As. The TT tournament is very restrictive in what units are allowed (A great majority are not). If I understand your reasoning, you are stating you would not choose to deploy the "Accept my list or give me my money" tactic at Adepticon because it sells out quickly and is too big for you to bully into allowing your illegal list. If that's the case, you are missing the point.

That point being--if you sign up for an event that sells out--knowing you do not plan on abiding by the rules, that's incredibly rude and disrespectful to the other players involved, the other players on a wait list hoping the event opens up and the Tournament Organizer. You are taking slots away from other players that would like to participate in the tournament and abide by the rules. Better just not sign up, not spend money at the particular vendors at whatever Con it might be--and choose events that do allow FW.

This is coming from a user that has argued for more FW inclusion at the TT tournament--on this very forum .

I can understand what sskipper is trying to do, and since the tournament rules packet does not say Forgeworld is not allowed, I think he should expect to be allowed to use the Grot Tanks. I pretty much did the same thing around my area, by constantly forcing the issue with the local TOs until my army was allowed into tournaments. I'm sure it helped that I was a nice guy about it, though, and didn't pressure the TO with my money but rather by making my models look as cool as possible with conversions and paintjobs. The caveat I abided by was that, since I'm not actually trying to win the tournament and just want to use my neat models and compete for the Best Painted award, I could concede the game to each of my opponents before we played and then just play a game for fun and I could use my Forgeworld units. I have a complete blast at tournaments by doing this, although there was an issue during one tournament because the guy I played first won all his games but won the tournament on tie-breaker because we counted our game as him tabling me. I'm not sure how to account for that, though.

I am not signing up for an event rather just showing up the morning of and asking along with 4-5 other guys.