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Well he did say the University of Chicago's ecnomics department was justa fringe group...

#8 in the world (I'd say #7 Berkeley is overrated for well everything):
http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/subject-rankings/social-sciences/economics

#2 on this list:
http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/index.php/index/index/ranking

#1 on this list:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-humanities-schools/economics-rankings

"You may make us healthy, and ban pre-existing conditions... but you'll never take our FREEDOM!!"

This thread needs more bootstraps, because only bootstraps give maximum freedom with regards to Healthcare, anything less is suffering under the hell of a tyrannical socialist dictator.

Equally goofy to the bootstrap talk is the naivete that leads people to believe that there's no potential downside to this.

With that said, I'm for Universal Healthcare, though I'd rather have a single-payer option.

I invoke Betteridge's Law of Headlines. The answer is inherently "no".

 Monster Rain wrote:


With that said, I'm for Universal Healthcare, though I'd rather have a single-payer option.

Isn't that basically the same thing though? I guess if everyone HAD to actually purchase the single-payer option, it would be universal; but I wouldn't see them rolling it out any other way.

 Frazzled wrote:
You would also pay a 20% VAT tax on everything you buy.

Federal AVT is at 5% in Canada. So at this point my "expense" to get that fancy Canadian healthcare is an additional 1% income tax, and a 5% AVT at the federal level.

That puts me at between $350-450 a month in "cost of healthcare".

Our insurance/vision/dental/HSA costs us $593.98 a month.

So it would only cost me $-150 to $-250 a month to get that system, and that is not counting the out of pocket expenses I currently also have to pay.

How do people live under such an archaic and barbaric system.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You would also pay a 20% VAT tax on everything you buy.

Federal AVT is at 5% in Canada. So at this point my "expense" to get that fancy Canadian healthcare is an additional 1% income tax, and a 5% AVT at the federal level.

That puts me at between $350-450 a month in "cost of healthcare".

Our insurance/vision/dental/HSA costs us $593.98 a month.

So it would only cost me $-150 to $-250 a month to get that system, and that is not counting the out of pocket expenses I currently also have to pay.

How do people live under such an archaic and barbaric system.

Combine it with the state VAT and you're in 20% range.

What's VAT again?

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You would also pay a 20% VAT tax on everything you buy.

Federal AVT is at 5% in Canada. So at this point my "expense" to get that fancy Canadian healthcare is an additional 1% income tax, and a 5% AVT at the federal level.

That puts me at between $350-450 a month in "cost of healthcare".

Our insurance/vision/dental/HSA costs us $593.98 a month.

So it would only cost me $-150 to $-250 a month to get that system, and that is not counting the out of pocket expenses I currently also have to pay.

How do people live under such an archaic and barbaric system.

Combine it with the state VAT and you're in 20% range.

Actually, the data I find is that the states collect a Harmonized Sales Tax, and the highest combined rate I can find for both is 15% but it seems the average combined rate is 13%.

But keep in mind that I already pay a sales tax here in the United States, so to see how much the AVT is really going to impact me we will have to take into consideration the difference between the two.

So let me take the 5% federal AVT, and add my current sales tax to see what I end up with. My current sales tax is 8.37%.

The total Canadian "sales tax" would average out to 13%, my current sales tax is 13.37%.

Looks like I just saved a couple more bucks, thanks Frazzled

But just to keep things fair I will see how much the maximum rate would cost me, so at 15% I would pay another 1.67% in taxes.

So worst case scenario I "only" spend $75 to $175 less than I do now.

 AustonT wrote:
What's VAT again?

Value Added Tax.

d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You would also pay a 20% VAT tax on everything you buy.

Federal AVT is at 5% in Canada. So at this point my "expense" to get that fancy Canadian healthcare is an additional 1% income tax, and a 5% AVT at the federal level.

That puts me at between $350-450 a month in "cost of healthcare".

Our insurance/vision/dental/HSA costs us $593.98 a month.

So it would only cost me $-150 to $-250 a month to get that system, and that is not counting the out of pocket expenses I currently also have to pay.

How do people live under such an archaic and barbaric system.

Combine it with the state VAT and you're in 20% range.

Actually, the data I find is that the states collect a Harmonized Sales Tax, and the highest combined rate I can find for both is 15% but it seems the average combined rate is 13%.

But keep in mind that I already pay a sales tax here in the United States, so to see how much the AVT is really going to impact me we will have to take into consideration the difference between the two.

So let me take the 5% federal AVT, and add my current sales tax to see what I end up with. My current sales tax is 8.37%.

The total Canadian "sales tax" would average out to 13%, my current sales tax is 13.37%.

Looks like I just saved a couple more bucks, thanks Frazzled

But just to keep things fair I will see how much the maximum rate would cost me, so at 15% I would pay another 1.67% in taxes.

So worst case scenario I "only" spend $75 to $175 less than I do now.

You should consider yourself lucky. I pay 9-11% depending on which city I buy in and a 2% tax on food. A 5% federal tax in addition would bring me pretty close to 20%. Hypothetically that would be in addition to income taxes right? That seems like an awful lot.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
What's VAT again?

Value Added Tax.

Thank you.

Japan has only a 5% sales tax but they are going to increase it to 10%.

 AustonT wrote:

d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You would also pay a 20% VAT tax on everything you buy.

Federal AVT is at 5% in Canada. So at this point my "expense" to get that fancy Canadian healthcare is an additional 1% income tax, and a 5% AVT at the federal level.

That puts me at between $350-450 a month in "cost of healthcare".

Our insurance/vision/dental/HSA costs us $593.98 a month.

So it would only cost me $-150 to $-250 a month to get that system, and that is not counting the out of pocket expenses I currently also have to pay.

How do people live under such an archaic and barbaric system.

Combine it with the state VAT and you're in 20% range.

Actually, the data I find is that the states collect a Harmonized Sales Tax, and the highest combined rate I can find for both is 15% but it seems the average combined rate is 13%.

But keep in mind that I already pay a sales tax here in the United States, so to see how much the AVT is really going to impact me we will have to take into consideration the difference between the two.

So let me take the 5% federal AVT, and add my current sales tax to see what I end up with. My current sales tax is 8.37%.

The total Canadian "sales tax" would average out to 13%, my current sales tax is 13.37%.

Looks like I just saved a couple more bucks, thanks Frazzled

But just to keep things fair I will see how much the maximum rate would cost me, so at 15% I would pay another 1.67% in taxes.

So worst case scenario I "only" spend $75 to $175 less than I do now.

You should consider yourself lucky. I pay 9-11% depending on which city I buy in and a 2% tax on food. A 5% federal tax in addition would bring me pretty close to 20%. Hypothetically that would be in addition to income taxes right? That seems like an awful lot.

I just calculated the difference in income tax between my bracket here and what my bracket would be in Canada (1%), figured out how much money I would spend each month that would collect federal VAT (5%), and then added the difference between the state AVT in Canada (average of 8%) and my current sales tax (8.37%).

That gives me the "Additional Taxes I would spend in Canada in exchange for Canadian healthcare" total that I can compare to my current monthly cost of health insurance and find that I would spend between $150-250 less a month in Canada.

If I had kids that drive up my premiums I would save even more in Canada, and also keep in mind that the savings don't include all the out of pocket expenses that I don't have to pay in Canada.

I'm regularly forced to attend the doctors at gunpoint by the NHS police (they get guns unlike our regular police) whether I want to or not.

Wait a second...

I'm quite happy paying a small additional amount of tax which covers me for virtually everything rather than a large insurance premium covers me for pretty much nothing (as it seems most health insurance "products" do). It doesn't impinge on my freedom; my healthcare costs do not increase if I want to do extreme sports, nor will they increase if I get some kind of long term illness, nor will I suddenly find myself with a huge bill if I go in for some common treatment that I am somehow not covered for because my health provider decides that they don't want to pay for that any more.

So yeah, I feel pretty free, pay less, get a large range of payment free treatments and never have to worry about suddenly finding possibly thousands of pounds for medical treatment if I get ill or am injured.

I can recommend it

Surely any treatment refused by a "Death Panel" would be completely unaffordable to the average American anyway?

The NHS is on the ropes a bit with financing, but that can be addressed by not pissing money up the wall on foreign aid to countries with space programs and nuclear weapons. Cutting down on our illegal and protracted wars as well as loosing the nukes would be another good place to start.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Surely any treatment refused by a "Death Panel" would be completely unaffordable to the average American anyway?

The NHS is on the ropes a bit with financing, but that can be addressed by not pissing money up the wall on foreign aid to countries with space programs and nuclear weapons. Cutting down on our illegal and protracted wars as well as loosing the nukes would be another good place to start.

MoD for El Presidente!

One of the more stupid things the NHS does is pay "fines" for things like not getting GP letters typed and sent out within 3 days of being dictated, as well as paying ridiculous amounts to outsource all sorts of things that should be done in house.

 Shadowseer_Kim wrote:

Generic prescriptions for $4 a month.

No way in hell. I pay more than that for over the counter painkillers every month. And, while I don't know what my parents pay for their meds, it is certainly above $4 per month.

 Shadowseer_Kim wrote:

Various medical services can be found at an affordable price, though most people do not think to look. An MRI was obtained for around $80 for cash sometime in the last year I heard in a report.

Probably at a subsidized (by government or charity, doesn't matter) clinic.

 AustonT wrote:
What's VAT again?

Valued Added Tax. Its like a sales tax thats applied all the way up the manufacturing chain. The cumulative tax is quite high.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You would also pay a 20% VAT tax on everything you buy.

Federal AVT is at 5% in Canada. So at this point my "expense" to get that fancy Canadian healthcare is an additional 1% income tax, and a 5% AVT at the federal level.

That puts me at between $350-450 a month in "cost of healthcare".

Our insurance/vision/dental/HSA costs us $593.98 a month.

So it would only cost me $-150 to $-250 a month to get that system, and that is not counting the out of pocket expenses I currently also have to pay.

How do people live under such an archaic and barbaric system.

Combine it with the state VAT and you're in 20% range.

Actually, the data I find is that the states collect a Harmonized Sales Tax, and the highest combined rate I can find for both is 15% but it seems the average combined rate is 13%.

But keep in mind that I already pay a sales tax here in the United States, so to see how much the AVT is really going to impact me we will have to take into consideration the difference between the two.

So let me take the 5% federal AVT, and add my current sales tax to see what I end up with. My current sales tax is 8.37%.

The total Canadian "sales tax" would average out to 13%, my current sales tax is 13.37%.

Looks like I just saved a couple more bucks, thanks Frazzled

But just to keep things fair I will see how much the maximum rate would cost me, so at 15% I would pay another 1.67% in taxes.

So worst case scenario I "only" spend $75 to $175 less than I do now.

VATS all the way up. (15% in Nova Scotia by the way which means 20% total). The cumulative effect is substantially higher.
I'm just saying it not just income tax its VAt and other taxes. VAT is what everyone complains about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dogma wrote:

 Shadowseer_Kim wrote:

Generic prescriptions for $4 a month.

No way in hell. I pay more than that for over the counter painkillers every month. And, while I don't know what my parents pay for their meds, it is certainly above $4 per month.

 Shadowseer_Kim wrote:

Various medical services can be found at an affordable price, though most people do not think to look. An MRI was obtained for around $80 for cash sometime in the last year I heard in a report.

Probably at a subsidized (by government or charity, doesn't matter) clinic.

Sure it can be that. Thats just what that person is paying, not the total cost. Medicare prescriptions are generally hyper low as well.

 Frazzled wrote:

Sure it can be that. Thats just what that person is paying, not the total cost. Medicare prescriptions are generally hyper low as well.

I read that as what was being paid absent any coverage other than catastrophic. Maybe the intention was different.

As I said, I pay more than that per month for over the counter pain killers.

Shuma had a very apt description of the current system... I'll see if I can find it.

But basically, our system does treat people well (who can get it), but it's wildly inefficient and we pay through the nose.

The ACA act, does take away our freedom (a choice to purchase insurance vs not purchasing insurance)... so, there is that.

It's so over regulated (on Fed and state level) that it encourages BAD BEHAVIORS.

This is the perverbial "lipstick on a pig".

Just scrap the system and go Canadian system... who knows, it may be cheaper... can't be any worse than now.

I'm more free with the NHS than I ever would have been had I been born in America.

Born with a rare condition (affects about 1 in 40,000) which has caused me to suffer from chronic renal failure my entire life.

No private insurer would touch me with a ten foot pole without charging an extortionate amount of money for it. One of the drugs (in total I take 6 different drugs) I'm on now costs £750 for a months supply, that is around $1200. I will be on this drug for the rest of my life. Anyone care to take a ball park estimate on how much private health insurance would cost a month for someone like me?

On the NHS I got free prescriptions, free check ups and a free live donor kidney transplant which prevented me from having to go onto dialysis. All that has given me more freedom to live my life than I will ever pay back through taxes.

 azazel the cat wrote:
I just show up and the government pays for everything.

It's fething awesome.

Also, I still seem to have freedom.

Hooray for socialized medicine!

Canada gets it right first, eh? It just goes to show that even a mediocre education system beats what the US has atm...

 Frazzled wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
What's VAT again?

Valued Added Tax. Its like a sales tax thats applied all the way up the manufacturing chain. The cumulative tax is quite high.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You would also pay a 20% VAT tax on everything you buy.

Federal AVT is at 5% in Canada. So at this point my "expense" to get that fancy Canadian healthcare is an additional 1% income tax, and a 5% AVT at the federal level.

That puts me at between $350-450 a month in "cost of healthcare".

Our insurance/vision/dental/HSA costs us $593.98 a month.

So it would only cost me $-150 to $-250 a month to get that system, and that is not counting the out of pocket expenses I currently also have to pay.

How do people live under such an archaic and barbaric system.

Combine it with the state VAT and you're in 20% range.

Actually, the data I find is that the states collect a Harmonized Sales Tax, and the highest combined rate I can find for both is 15% but it seems the average combined rate is 13%.

But keep in mind that I already pay a sales tax here in the United States, so to see how much the AVT is really going to impact me we will have to take into consideration the difference between the two.

So let me take the 5% federal AVT, and add my current sales tax to see what I end up with. My current sales tax is 8.37%.

The total Canadian "sales tax" would average out to 13%, my current sales tax is 13.37%.

Looks like I just saved a couple more bucks, thanks Frazzled

But just to keep things fair I will see how much the maximum rate would cost me, so at 15% I would pay another 1.67% in taxes.

So worst case scenario I "only" spend $75 to $175 less than I do now.

VATS all the way up. (15% in Nova Scotia by the way which means 20% total). The cumulative effect is substantially higher.
I'm just saying it not just income tax its VAt and other taxes. VAT is what everyone complains about.

Except that it is not cumulative.

Each stage of the industry chain gets it refunded. Only the end consumer in the street actually pays the tax.

 d-usa wrote:
[
I just calculated the difference in income tax between my bracket here and what my bracket would be in Canada (1%), figured out how much money I would spend each month that would collect federal VAT (5%), and then added the difference between the state AVT in Canada (average of 8%) and my current sales tax (8.37%).

That gives me the "Additional Taxes I would spend in Canada in exchange for Canadian healthcare" total that I can compare to my current monthly cost of health insurance and find that I would spend between $150-250 less a month in Canada.

If I had kids that drive up my premiums I would save even more in Canada, and also keep in mind that the savings don't include all the out of pocket expenses that I don't have to pay in Canada.

I see what you did but it doesn't make sense. Your city/state still has to provide the services it does not in addition to universal health care. DO you really think that difference is .37%? Last year we raised the sales tax to support schools that was 1% I have to imagine expanding medical coverage would be more than that; significantly more. I thought you and Frazz had agreed on a 5% number and if I add that on top of what I pay now, just in sales taxes its 1/6th of my earnings. It's pretty steep, and also I think more realistic in the end if not in methodology.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I just show up and the government pays for everything.

It's fething awesome.

Also, I still seem to have freedom.

Hooray for socialized medicine!

Canada gets it right first, eh? It just goes to show that even a mediocre education system beats what the US has atm...

I hate to break it to you, but Canada's education system is ranked #3 in the world, the USA is ranked #22...

Whats the classroom size? How many students per teacher? USA pop vs Canada pop?

They ration education in Canada

 AustonT wrote:
They ration education in Canada

Okay... that's funny...

Remember folks, we have over 300 million folks here in US of A... how populous is Canada?

Looking at it from the POV of someone with some epidemiology experience, nationalised healthcare makes a pretty good amount of sense. You can ensure people are vaccinated and so on. And preventative treatments are much more efficient long term. I dunno, it just seems like a nicer way to run society than the other. Of course, some people take the piss with the NHS and it could be more efficient, but at least it's not actually creaming off a tasty profit from your suffering.

 whembly wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
They ration education in Canada

Okay... that's funny...

Remember folks, we have over 300 million folks here in US of A... how populous is Canada?

Around 34 million according to Google. Thing is, the US spends more per capita on healthcare than any other country in the world. That it does this and yet apparently cannot provide universal coverage is kinda absurd.