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 DarknessEternal wrote:

God of War alone makes Calgar better than Lysander. It has a legitimate case for being the best ability in the entire game.

^qft

Combined with ATSKNF, this gives you unmatched control of your marines

Lysander Pedro Sternguard. the ability to hold objectives is ridiculous, as is the ability to stomp mudholes from 30 inches.

Unless I'm mistaken, you don't HAVE to use Lysander's chapter tactics to use him and his Bolter Drill.

So you can get his CC and Bolter awsomness without losing Combat Tactics.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, you don't HAVE to use Lysander's chapter tactics to use him and his Bolter Drill.

So you can get his CC and Bolter awsomness without losing Combat Tactics.

'Tis true, 'tis true. Don't forget the Fortify Ruins rule he has, kind of a neat buff too. His abilities are all over the place, and when used well can buff the effectiveness of multiple units.

I drop Lysander with sterngaurd to really mess with enemy deployment. Sterns kill something, then usually die, leaving Lysander to Fist of Dorn anything nearby. The stubborn is the only real drawback.

 el_hammer wrote:
I drop Lysander with sterngaurd to really mess with enemy deployment. Sterns kill something, then usually die, leaving Lysander to Fist of Dorn anything nearby. The stubborn is the only real drawback.

Which as pointed out is completely optional.

Lysander with Sternguard or Terminators is generally viewed as an excellent way to field him. I like the Sternguard with a Land Raider Transport - you can support them with more squads in Rhinos and really just focus some deadly firepower. Though, generally I'd rather have Terminators as they're hardier and scarier with all 'dat bolter fire/powerfists.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 el_hammer wrote:
I drop Lysander with sterngaurd to really mess with enemy deployment. Sterns kill something, then usually die, leaving Lysander to Fist of Dorn anything nearby. The stubborn is the only real drawback.

Which as pointed out is completely optional.

If by optional you mean "Can be negated by buying another ~200pts HQ that brings another relatively useless chapter tactics (with the possible exception of some Vulkan builds) to the table instead" then yes, it is completly optional...

You have the choice to replace Combat tactics with his Chapter Tactics; you do not HAVE to. That's how it reads in the C:SM book.

 evildrspock wrote:
You have the choice to replace Combat tactics with his Chapter Tactics; you do not HAVE to. That's how it reads in the C:SM book.

"If you include Lysander then all units in your army exchange the combat tactics special rule for the stubborn universal special rule. If more than one character in your army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must choose which version will apply." pg. 91 of C:SM.

What you're claiming is not what the codex says. The FAQ also says:

"Q. Is there a circumstance under which a special character who has a
‘Chapter Tactics’ special rule will also be able to use his ‘Combat Tactics’
special rule? (p51)
A. No – he exchanges it either for the rules given in his own
Chapter Tactics rule, or (if your army contains two or more
special characters with the Combat Tactics special rule) the
rules given in another special character’s Chapter Tactics rule."

You are forced to swap Combat Tactics for Stubborn if Lysander is your only HQ.

 AresX8 wrote:

You are forced to swap Combat Tactics for Stubborn if Lysander is your only HQ.

If he's even your only HQ with a Chapter Tactics replacement, not just if he's your only HQ.

I do not even understand how you are really meant to make use of Lysander's bolter tactics. If someone wants to venture a suggestion.

You walk around with sternguard then you are no where near the enemy so Lysander will not smash things with his hammer. If you drop pod them why are you not combatting squadding and taking combis? If for some reason you are taking a raider, then the sternguard mostly will not be able to shoot.

The shooty termies make sense, they can do cc and shooting, just seems an expensive way of doing things.

In either case if you have a squad of 7(or less) being boosted, just buy the 3 more models to get a better boost it is just cheaper.

Also TL goodness has a price, the price of a BA/DA/SW librarian.

Other options would be: Bastion/ fortress with heavy bolters and a dev. squad with heavy bolters which is just silly. DC sounds fun(prescience anyone?). BA sternguard with priest with termy armour would be cool(prescience anyone?) BA termies.
IG blob squad with heavy bolters and such like, this is cool.

The point being I see Lysander as a beat stick and the bolter drill as very little advantage given his role on the battlefield.

MFletch wrote:
I do not even understand how you are really meant to make use of Lysander's bolter tactics. If someone wants to venture a suggestion.

1. Drop Pod full of Sternguard
2. Drop said Sternguard near something expensive
3. Rapid fire Hellfire rounds
4. Profit

Last time I did this, out of 20 shots, I managed 18 wounds in the initial drop.

Repeat steps 3 and 4 until you run out of Sternguard.

Then, shove the Fist of Dorn up to the hilt in your opponents Warlord (or if he can't be reached, ANYTHING else)

 NickTheButcher wrote:

MFletch wrote:
I do not even understand how you are really meant to make use of Lysander's bolter tactics. If someone wants to venture a suggestion.

1. Drop Pod full of Sternguard
2. Drop said Sternguard near something expensive
3. Rapid fire Hellfire rounds
4. Profit

Last time I did this, out of 20 shots, I managed 18 wounds in the initial drop.

Repeat steps 3 and 4 until you run out of Sternguard.

Then, shove the Fist of Dorn up to the hilt in your opponents Warlord (or if he can't be reached, ANYTHING else)

This-that, and if you choose to use all your combi-weapons, and for some reason the sterngard survive for another shooting phase, he makes them even more accurate. Or if they have crappy armor saves and rapid fire gives you more shots (assuming combi-meltas).

If you need a character simply to beat face and are OK with having stubborn, then you should take lysander. If you are using them for their abilities, God of War>stubborn or any other morale ability IMO. And I would agree that it is one of the best abilities in the game.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 el_hammer wrote:
I drop Lysander with sterngaurd to really mess with enemy deployment. Sterns kill something, then usually die, leaving Lysander to Fist of Dorn anything nearby. The stubborn is the only real drawback.

Which as pointed out is completely optional.

Great execpt for the fact that it is not. I have Codex: Space Marines open on front of me, and it says Marines in the army swap Combat Tactis for Stubborn, not they may do it.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

MFletch wrote:
I do not even understand how you are really meant to make use of Lysander's bolter tactics. If someone wants to venture a suggestion.

1. Drop Pod full of Sternguard
2. Drop said Sternguard near something expensive
3. Rapid fire Hellfire rounds
4. Profit

Last time I did this, out of 20 shots, I managed 18 wounds in the initial drop.

Repeat steps 3 and 4 until you run out of Sternguard.

Then, shove the Fist of Dorn up to the hilt in your opponents Warlord (or if he can't be reached, ANYTHING else)

But this doesn't use his cc abilities. You are not using combat squads or combiweapons or full weapons which you want in a drop pod. This is a tonnes of points as well. A librarian with prescience would do the same job, whilst being cheaper.

MFletch wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

MFletch wrote:
I do not even understand how you are really meant to make use of Lysander's bolter tactics. If someone wants to venture a suggestion.

1. Drop Pod full of Sternguard
2. Drop said Sternguard near something expensive
3. Rapid fire Hellfire rounds
4. Profit

Last time I did this, out of 20 shots, I managed 18 wounds in the initial drop.

Repeat steps 3 and 4 until you run out of Sternguard.

Then, shove the Fist of Dorn up to the hilt in your opponents Warlord (or if he can't be reached, ANYTHING else)

But this doesn't use his cc abilities. You are not using combat squads or combiweapons or full weapons which you want in a drop pod. This is a tonnes of points as well. A librarian with prescience would do the same job, whilst being cheaper.

Except you can't take Prescience (if I could, then yes, a Libby would be awesome)

Also,

His CC abilities come into play just fine. Once the Sternguard die off, you run them into CC and have Lysander destroy whatever he touches. You can also use him as a meat shield to soak up fire and keep the squad alive for more shooting.

While combat squadding some Combi-Flamers and Combi-Metlas are nice, it's only one way to use Sternguard. Not playing them this way doesn't make them useless. In fact, I argue that the the whole reason to take them is their special issue ammunition.

The point cost of the unit is worth it IMO. I have lots of fun using them and they usually make up for their cost.

The irony in this thread is that I'm actually switching to Vulkan/Salamanders (Tome of Fire trilogy FTW) hahha.