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This is more or less stated in latest White Dwarf. Multiple displayed armies like Alpha Legion/Black Legion are seen with Dark Apostles, and the fluff excerpt for them simply calls them the counterpart to Space Marine Chaplains with no reference to the Word Bearers.

Discuss the new changes. Personally as a Word Bearers nut I dislike it as I felt it gave them a unique flavor, but maybe others think differently.

I could see it because chaplains are pre heresy and were not only used by the word bearers legion its just that many legions had different names for them.

Wasn't it stated that every other legion killed their Chaplains though?

But after serving chaos for 10,000 years you think they would have priests of some kind (Enter dark apostle equivalent here)

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Wasn't it stated that every other legion killed their Chaplains though?

Librarians/Loyalists.

Chaplains as we know them weren't around outside of the Dark Angels/Word Bearers...and even then, it's pushing it to call what the Dark Angels had Chaplains.

How about saying that all Dark Apostles still are Word Bearers - originally. They send members of their priesthood to other legions? Does that work at all?

No, Not really, Chao's is'nt a unified force. so i doupt they would.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No, Not really, Chao's is'nt a unified force. so i doupt they would.

They're still devoted worshippers, though. If they need spiritual guidance, I see no reason for the Bearers legion to not disseminate their priesthood in order to spread the words of their Dark Gods and ensure their will is being followed throughout the other fallen legions.

It wouldn't be that hard to still keep Dark Apostles WB while having them a fieldable unit by any legion on the table.

1.) Allies, WB's regularly ally with guys like Black Legion in particular.
2.) A rogue brotherhood of WB Dark Apostles have more or less become missionaries after being banished from Sicarius, and have found a place in other Legions.

But that's now what GW has done...

Thought Dark Apositle was an honorific title to the Word Bearers as it signified a leader of a host ( think that's the right word for them) and you really couldn't get a higher rank.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Wasn't it stated that every other legion killed their Chaplains though?

Librarians/Loyalists.

Chaplains as we know them weren't around outside of the Dark Angels/Word Bearers...and even then, it's pushing it to call what the Dark Angels had Chaplains.

This is not true. I don't know if this is part of old fluff but it's most definitely been retconned. Librarians were not killed after Nikaea, they were simply stripped of the right to use their powers and placed back in the rank and file. False God's and Fulgrim also features a black armored, skull helmed chaplain of the Emperor's children.

I've got no problem with the fluff change. Someone else said it here, but I can't remember who. If Horus could fall, then random Imperial Fists chaplain #5631 can fall too. And as a Chaplain, quite used to preaching the faith, would be right at home doing his old job for new gods. Just think of it as other Chaos warbands being inspired by the Word Bearers.

Honestly, the biggest offense they commited with Dark Apostles is the gak ass new fig.

 Harriticus wrote:
This is more or less stated in latest White Dwarf. Multiple displayed armies like Alpha Legion/Black Legion are seen with Dark Apostles, and the fluff excerpt for them simply calls them the counterpart to Space Marine Chaplains with no reference to the Word Bearers.

Discuss the new changes. Personally as a Word Bearers nut I dislike it as I felt it gave them a unique flavor, but maybe others think differently.

Meh, never liked the idea of having legion-exclusive units or choices. Why should I be blocked from taking some cool model because my marines are green or grey and not red.

All the CSMs worship the chaos gods to some extent, doesn't it make sense chapters would have some kind of chaplain?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
'Course I'd also squish all the marine chapters into one book instead 6 but that's just me.

For me it's more of an issue of the fact that over ten thousand years there have formed countless Chaos warbands hammered out from units from many original Legions, which means restricting Dark Apostles to the Word Bearers is even sillier since there could be an improbable number of them out there in any number of warbands. Dark Apostles as an option for everyone makes a lot more sense to me.

Plus, it's Chaos. It's not like they're organized or have cultural taboos or anything. Except for Khorne and psykers, that's a slightly different matter.

Don't think of them as 'Dark Apostles' in the Word Bearers sense, but more as a warrior priest. Any warband will have this kind of leader. A zealous believer in the Dark Gods with the oratory skills to inspire his troops devotion. I think using the name Dark Apostle was a bit daft on GWs part, considering they're already an established part of a specific Legion's background, but its an awesome name, so such a small oversight is forgivable. And Word Bearers aren't likely to lend out their Dark Apostles. They're literally the top of their hierarchy, the leader of their Hosts, and Word Bearers are a conservative bunch as it is.

 Harriticus wrote:
It wouldn't be that hard to still keep Dark Apostles WB while having them a fieldable unit by any legion on the table.

1.) Allies, WB's regularly ally with guys like Black Legion in particular.
2.) A rogue brotherhood of WB Dark Apostles have more or less become missionaries after being banished from Sicarius, and have found a place in other Legions.

But that's not what GW has done...

You know that for a fact?

There's also precedent for both 1 and 2.
"Siege of Vraks" had a Khornate warband, 'The Sanctified' which had close ties to the Word Bearers Legion...and a Dark Apostle in their midst who opened up the Warp Rifts which caused Vraks to become a Daemonic warzone.

Always thought it was kinda dumb that only WB got them, glad they made this change although the model looks a bit... weird.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No, Not really, Chao's is'nt a unified force. so i doupt they would.

They're still devoted worshippers, though. If they need spiritual guidance, I see no reason for the Bearers legion to not disseminate their priesthood in order to spread the words of their Dark Gods and ensure their will is being followed throughout the other fallen legions.

This doesn't actually work as fluff due to the fact that most of the traitor legions and chapters do not follow the same belief system as the Word Bearers. Most chaos marines are not religious, they just like killing and power, using chaos to further this.

During the HH era, sure. It was just Word Bearers that had Dark Apostles. Point taken.

In the year 40k, don't you think other warbands will have figured out the usefulness of having a rabble-rouser to stir up the troops, plant seeds of rebellion, and keep the followers in line?

It's rather silly for a War Band to say "Gee, I wish we had some guy that would do all of that for us, but only the Word Bearers get them. Maybe if we ask nicely. Which Warp Planet is Daemon Prince Lorgar hiding on? Let's send Lenny to ask nicely..."

 BluntmanDC wrote:
This doesn't actually work as fluff due to the fact that most of the traitor legions and chapters do not follow the same belief system as the Word Bearers.

Ah. If that's the case then it'll require a tad more DIY fluff jury-rigging. But still doable, I'd say. You can do whatever you want, it's your time/money (miniatures) at the end of the day. If you want your Dark Apostle model to be a Word Bearer alongside a non-WB warband, no one can really stop you.

Most chaos marines are not religious, they just like killing and power, using chaos to further this.

This I disagree with. Such powers come from their devotion to Chaos. It's their form of worship, therefore they are still highly, highly religious. Their eternal fight against the IoM, starting with the HH is basically the biggest jihad ever conceived. Non-believers would quickly find themselves devoured by the Dark Ones (rather than slowly devoured, the reward of the faithful ).

 Anfauglir wrote:


This I disagree with. Such powers come from their devotion to Chaos. It's their form of worship, therefore they are still highly, highly religious. Their eternal fight against the IoM, starting with the HH is basically the biggest jihad ever conceived. Non-believers would quickly find themselves devoured by the Dark Ones (rather than slowly devoured, the reward of the faithful ).

I disagree. It is a very, very, very common archetype, a cliche even, that a Chaos Marine (Lord, Sorcerer, whatever) thinks/believes/claims he's "in control" and "simply using" Chaos for his own ends. The hubris is always the end of them, but they are granted with powers even while they disdain those around them that grovel before the Chaos Gods.

Even Abaddon fits this template to a degree. Worship is not required to serve chaos. Just a willingness to cross some boundaries to do whatever you think you have to do.

The Word Bearers, 4 God-specific Legions are really the only worshiping fanatical followers of Chaos. Beyond that it comes off on an individual basis. Night Lords has guys who have elevated to Daemon Princes, but also guys who have disdain for the Chaos Lords such as Talos. Iron Warriors have Honsou vs. Shon'Tu and Honsou's predecessor which is more or less the same thing.

Even with the Black Legion, which regularly uses Chaos, the worship seems more like lip service to gain power then anything personal.

I think it's fair to assume that the Word Bearers were the only Legion that didn't kill their Chaplains... but over time other legions could have individuals who want to preach the word of Chaos? So they could come about naturally?

 Zweischneid wrote:
I disagree. It is a very, very, very common archetype, a cliche even, that a Chaos Marine (Lord, Sorcerer, whatever) thinks/believes/claims he's "in control" and "simply using" Chaos for his own ends. The hubris is always the end of them, but they are granted with powers even while they disdain those around them that grovel before the Chaos Gods.

Even Abaddon fits this template to a degree. Worship is not required to serve chaos. Just a willingness to cross some boundaries to do whatever you think you have to do.

Again, I have to disagree, but each to their own and all that. Chaos is all of mankinds darkest aspects, which are literally deified in the form of the Dark Gods. Look at it any way you want, but <- that's religion, pure and simple. Remember that worship can take many, many forms, and that a Chaos Marine's hubris and disdain for those that grovel can simply be their belief of their superior devoutness. If their bestowed powers are anything to go by, that belief may well be justified. I've always thought that "Chaos are the servants of the Chaos Gods, whom they worship" to be a pretty central and straightforward aspect of their fluff, personally.

 Anfauglir wrote:


Again, I have to disagree, but each to their own and all that. Chaos is all of mankinds darkest aspects, which are literally deified in the form of the Dark Gods. Look at it any way you want, but <- that's religion, pure and simple. Remember that worship can take many, many forms, and that a Chaos Marine's hubris and disdain for those that grovel can simply be their belief of their superior devoutness. If their bestowed powers are anything to go by, that belief may well be justified. I've always thought that "Chaos are the servants of the Chaos Gods, whom they worship" to be a pretty central and straightforward aspect of their fluff, personally.

/shrug

It's not how I read it. I think you are stretching the concept of "devoutness" and "worship" to the point where it's meaningless. Take characters like the Exalted in Soul Hunter. He's literally a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, more or less. But he certainly doesn't worship him in any way. I don't think he even mentions the Chaos God in the entire book. He keeps saying Chaos is his servant and that the Chaos Gods are so in awe of him that they bestow him with powers.

Of course his mistaken and a servant of Chaos. But he is an unwitting servant of Chaos, lured in by the Dark Gods giving him power like a fixer giving you a free taste of drugs to get you hooked. Worship doesn't play a role there. Devoutness even less so.

Hell, the entire Dark Eldar race basically do nothing but serve Slannesh unwittingly (indulging in obscene pleasures and pains) as a very conscious act of not serving and denying Slannesh.

Ahriman doesn't "worship" Tzeentch. Like many Chaos Sorcerers, he believes himself to be smarter than Tzeentch.

It's this sort of irony that makes Chaos fun. Its also the irony of Imperials breaking free from the worship of the Emperor (there's a culture build on devoutness) only to find themselves unwittingly servants by the act of trying to escape a culture of serfdom and devoutness.

Since there are no specific rules for the Word Bearers legions, I see no problem with the Dark Apostle to be "open to all". Don't use cult troops, have a lot of cultists and daemons as meatshields and distractions, and you have the Word Bearers to a T. That's it.

Yeah I have to agree with the Word Bearer only argument. Despite what so many people are trying to clain here, the majority of the original Chaos Legions do not treat their allegiance to a god as a religion. They may honour their chosen god through their actions but they have no structured means of worship, each warband simply pursues it's own ends through which they please their chosen god. The Word Bearer religion is not how Chaos has to to be worshipped, Lorgar set up this religion and decided on it's rules and structures based on the general worship of Chaos. They are the only Legion that see the need for a dedicated religious leader because it's how they justify their rebellion. The World eaters have Kharn tearing the heads off of the enemy by the dozen and see that as the best way to further Khornes cause, they dont need a priest to whip them into a frenzy, they're already there.

Look at the Catholic church, for nearly 4 centuries people were worshipping christianity in a rather lose fashion. Then the Romans came in and adopted it but decided on the whole "correct" way that it should be structured. The Catholic church is a structured and very old way of worshipping Christ but it is obviously a matter of a opinion whether or not they are right. I see the Word Bearers like this, they look down on the way other legions dedicate themselves to the gods and see their way as the only right way. The Apostles are very much a part of the word bearers idea of the religion. Nightlords would never have a priest type unit as they see worship as slavery, some may fall to chaos unwittingly but they would never say they are worshipping. Abbadon doesnt appear to really worship them either, just pleasing them so that they endorse his cause. The Iron Warriors again are not the religious types either, with far more reverence given to machines than gods or daemons. The four legions who are aligned to a single god dont worship Chaos as a whole so wouldnt have a priest, the whole way they would propagate their "religion" is indulging the urges that put then with that god in the first place. Like a Khorne marine spilling blood or a Thousand Son mutating a whole population etc. It isnt the same as organised worship.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Yeah I have to agree with the Word Bearer only argument. Despite what so many people are trying to clain here, the majority of the original Chaos Legions do not treat their allegiance to a god as a religion. They may honour their chosen god through their actions but they have no structured means of worship, each warband simply pursues it's own ends through which they please their chosen god. The Word Bearer religion is not how Chaos has to to be worshipped, Lorgar set up this religion and decided on it's rules and structures based on the general worship of Chaos. They are the only Legion that see the need for a dedicated religious leader because it's how they justify their rebellion. The World eaters have Kharn tearing the heads off of the enemy by the dozen and see that as the best way to further Khornes cause, they dont need a priest to whip them into a frenzy, they're already there.

Look at the Catholic church, for nearly 4 centuries people were worshipping christianity in a rather lose fashion. Then the Romans came in and adopted it but decided on the whole "correct" way that it should be structured. The Catholic church is a structured and very old way of worshipping Christ but it is obviously a matter of a opinion whether or not they are right. I see the Word Bearers like this, they look down on the way other legions dedicate themselves to the gods and see their way as the only right way. The Apostles are very much a part of the word bearers idea of the religion. Nightlords would never have a priest type unit as they see worship as slavery, some may fall to chaos unwittingly but they would never say they are worshipping. Abbadon doesnt appear to really worship them either, just pleasing them so that they endorse his cause. The Iron Warriors again are not the religious types either, with far more reverence given to machines than gods or daemons. The four legions who are aligned to a single god dont worship Chaos as a whole so wouldnt have a priest, the whole way they would propagate their "religion" is indulging the urges that put then with that god in the first place. Like a Khorne marine spilling blood or a Thousand Son mutating a whole population etc. It isnt the same as organised worship.

But there is a difference between worshipping yourself and using priests to whip up a bit of religious frenzy for your cause.

To return again the the Soul Hunter novel as an example, there is a part where the Black Legion (with Night Lords assistance) liberated a Prison Planet. In a scene, you see Abaddon and a few lackeys overlooking the trail of "liberated" prisoners (cultists to be) lining up to board the transporters. It specifically mentions Space Marine Priests (of the Black Legion) giving sermons and preaching to those mortals about the evil of the imperium and the glory of Chaos.

Abaddon himself scoffs at this. But he does use this type of Space Marines Preacher to keep the rank-and-file in line.

With the Word Bearers, Dark Apostles certainly hold a very high rank, if not the highest, because there the Space Marines themselves believe (up to and including the leadership). But other Legions or Warbands might still use and include Dark Apostles, if only to keep the cultists in line (and, possibly, the lower-ranking Marines).

Just because Dark Apostles aren't as highly regarded or as central as they are with the Word Bearers, doesn't mean they have no place at all.


Also note how the last White Dwarf showcases the Dark Apostle as an IC joining a unit of Cultists (not Marines). Seems a very fluffy use of him for virtually any Chaos Space Marine army.

Also, with lines like this...

White Dwarf wrote:
Dark Apostles devote their lives to the propagation of the unholy word, actively spreading the worship of Chaos across the galaxy. So powerful are their profane speeches that they can inspire entire planets to rebel against the Imperium.

... he is almost a mandatory choice for a fluffy Alpha Legion force.

So the Dark Apostle will be used by two people: power gamers looking for the awesome advantages it looks like it will get, and the fluff-aware players who want tk bud a Word Bearers army. So there..

A bad explanation could be that they were left overs from the Heresy.

The Word Bearers sent Chaplains to each Legion to effectively sway them to Chaos, like Erebus with the Sons of Horus, perhaps they never went back.