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Would it be a good idea to buy the Demon codex or is that one of the codexes that will be revamp in the near future?

It probably has a while to go before getting an update.

 n0t_u wrote:
It probably has a while to go before getting an update.

According to Hastings who's one of the most reliable rumor mongers, we're due for an update right after the Dark Angels finally get a codex of their own.
So, if WoC get a Nov release, that could push DA's into January at the latest, setting Daemons up for a Febuary or April release!


To OP: I'd still get the current book since we're still looking at a minimum 3-4 month wait, plus there's some good reading in background section on Chaos itself and the various realms of each God.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It probably has a while to go before getting an update.

According to Hastings who's one of the most reliable rumor mongers, we're due for an update right after the Dark Angels finally get a codex of their own.
So, if WoC get a Nov release, that could push DA's into January at the latest, setting Daemons up for a Febuary or April release!


To OP: I'd still get the current book since we're still looking at a minimum 3-4 month wait, plus there's some good reading in background section on Chaos itself and the various realms of each God.

Getting a new Daemon codex in the next 6 months or so would make me happy, but I think Eldar and Tau need a new one more. I feel like Daemons got much stronger with 6th Ed and the latest WD update for Flamers (borderline broken now) and Screamers. I wouldn't mind being closer to the end of the line if that meant Eldar or Tau got an update, I don't think we need it as much as they do.

Flamers didn't even need the change as they were still decent before.

I can see the timing in it though. It'd make some sense to bring them out close to WoC and CSM for allies. I'm not looking forward to a $90 codex though.

 undertow wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It probably has a while to go before getting an update.

According to Hastings who's one of the most reliable rumor mongers, we're due for an update right after the Dark Angels finally get a codex of their own.
So, if WoC get a Nov release, that could push DA's into January at the latest, setting Daemons up for a Febuary or April release!


To OP: I'd still get the current book since we're still looking at a minimum 3-4 month wait, plus there's some good reading in background section on Chaos itself and the various realms of each God.

Getting a new Daemon codex in the next 6 months or so would make me happy, but I think Eldar and Tau need a new one more. I feel like Daemons got much stronger with 6th Ed and the latest WD update for Flamers (borderline broken now) and Screamers. I wouldn't mind being closer to the end of the line if that meant Eldar or Tau got an update, I don't think we need it as much as they do.

Well, we need;
a) Some balancing to counter the GK disaster that can easily auto-win vs us.

b) A re-designing of our entire deployment mechanic. Basically, GW needs to feth-off with the stupid 'roll for which wave comes in first!' crap.
Sure it's cool & randomly chaotic and all, but it means we either have to build boring redundancies into our lists to counter that, or else we run with it, and get screwed by the dice in 33% of our games.

c) We need some flavour. After 5 years, we're getting pretty damn stale! At least Eldar & Tau can play around with a helluva lot more unit combos than we can... Sisters players will know what it means to have only a handful of actual unit entries!

d) Most importantly, Daemons is also a Fantasy release!!!
GW can keep cranking out primarily 40k books by shooting us to the 'front of the line' as allows them to pawn-off the release as a primarily Fantasy release without slowing down 40k production one bit!
If GW did a release schedual like; CSM's ---> DA's ---> Tau ---> Elard, those poort Fantasy players get the ultiment shaft. Slipping us in after DA's but before the xenos means the Fantasy players get a big month to celebrate before waiting for potentially another two 40k books to clear the way before they get a release again.

Experiment 626 wrote:
[

c) We need some flavour. After 5 years, we're getting pretty damn stale! At least Eldar & Tau can play around with a helluva lot more unit combos than we can... Sisters players will know what it means to have only a handful of actual unit entries!

Ask us Necron players how long we had to wait for a new codex and Necrons were the most stale army in the entire game back then...

 Sigvatr wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
[

c) We need some flavour. After 5 years, we're getting pretty damn stale! At least Eldar & Tau can play around with a helluva lot more unit combos than we can... Sisters players will know what it means to have only a handful of actual unit entries!

Ask us Necron players how long we had to wait for a new codex and Necrons were the most stale army in the entire game back then...

Okay, true, but at least you guys didn't have another army's codex released on you that basically got rules which read, "Daemon players can just go -off and quit altogether now!"

Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, we need;
a) Some balancing to counter the GK disaster that can easily auto-win vs us.

b) A re-designing of our entire deployment mechanic. Basically, GW needs to feth-off with the stupid 'roll for which wave comes in first!' crap.
Sure it's cool & randomly chaotic and all, but it means we either have to build boring redundancies into our lists to counter that, or else we run with it, and get screwed by the dice in 33% of our games.

c) We need some flavour. After 5 years, we're getting pretty damn stale! At least Eldar & Tau can play around with a helluva lot more unit combos than we can... Sisters players will know what it means to have only a handful of actual unit entries!

d) Most importantly, Daemons is also a Fantasy release!!!
GW can keep cranking out primarily 40k books by shooting us to the 'front of the line' as allows them to pawn-off the release as a primarily Fantasy release without slowing down 40k production one bit!
If GW did a release schedual like; CSM's ---> DA's ---> Tau ---> Elard, those poort Fantasy players get the ultiment shaft. Slipping us in after DA's but before the xenos means the Fantasy players get a big month to celebrate before waiting for potentially another two 40k books to clear the way before they get a release again.

a) While it is possible in theory for a GK player to auto-win against us, I have yet to see it in practice. In a tournament, if a GK player tailored his list like that he would probably have some rather glaring weaknesses against most other armies. Given that Daemon players aren't that common, it would be a foolish thing to do. I've had to deal with one or two Warp Quakes in a game before, but it was easily played around, especially if I can go first. So while I agree that it should be fixed, I don't think it should be at the expense of our deployment mechanics, which brings me to your point b:

b) I'm not a huge fan of rolling for waves. I'd love to see it gone, but I can live with it. If it doesn't go away I'd like to see it changed so that I get my preferred wave on a 2+. In any event, this has only really worked against me when I'm playing small games and just can't put enough on the table to recover from not getting my preferred wave. In larger games with the 6th Ed changes to reserve roll thresholds it doesn't bother me too much. I love the Deep Striking aspect of Daemons, I wouldn't want the all DS mechanic to go away, so if the price is not getting my preferred wave on a 1-2, I'll gladly pay it.

c) I really don't agree with this at all. We have multiple, viable choices in almost every FOC slot. I've seen people do well with completely different armies than mine (I play mostly Tzeentch). I'd like to see more Heavy and Fast Attack choices though, although the WD update helped a lot here.

d) No comment here, it doesn't look like you're complaining about anything here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
Flamers didn't even need the change as they were still decent before.

I agree. They were good before. Now I feel sort of dirty when I use them.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
[

c) We need some flavour. After 5 years, we're getting pretty damn stale! At least Eldar & Tau can play around with a helluva lot more unit combos than we can... Sisters players will know what it means to have only a handful of actual unit entries!

Ask us Necron players how long we had to wait for a new codex and Necrons were the most stale army in the entire game back then...

Okay, true, but at least you guys didn't have another army's codex released on you that basically got rules which read, "Daemon players can just go -off and quit altogether now!"

No, because our codex already was trash tier ;D

Necrons had to wait? what about DE?

However, hastings seems to think something is comming up, and if there are any rumors i follow, it is his.
The new update was great ....... If you managed to get the WD issue.

 undertow wrote:

a) While it is possible in theory for a GK player to auto-win against us, I have yet to see it in practice. In a tournament, if a GK player tailored his list like that he would probably have some rather glaring weaknesses against most other armies. Given that Daemon players aren't that common, it would be a foolish thing to do. I've had to deal with one or two Warp Quakes in a game before, but it was easily played around, especially if I can go first. So while I agree that it should be fixed, I don't think it should be at the expense of our deployment mechanics, which brings me to your point b:

b) I'm not a huge fan of rolling for waves. I'd love to see it gone, but I can live with it. If it doesn't go away I'd like to see it changed so that I get my preferred wave on a 2+. In any event, this has only really worked against me when I'm playing small games and just can't put enough on the table to recover from not getting my preferred wave. In larger games with the 6th Ed changes to reserve roll thresholds it doesn't bother me too much. I love the Deep Striking aspect of Daemons, I wouldn't want the all DS mechanic to go away, so if the price is not getting my preferred wave on a 1-2, I'll gladly pay it.

Well, just wait until you end up going second against a GK player who's smart enough to first play a castle deployment with the Strikes/Interceptors up front and then spreads them out the full 2" coherency... Welcome now to the game of 'pointlesshammer 40k'.
You only need 1 squad of warp quake capable models played properly to pretty much bone us right off the bat. Luckily for us, GK's attract a veritible craptonne of terrible players who think the codex can simply play the game for them!

The rolling for waves needs to go. It's too much of a disadvantage considering no other army has anything like it. Sure we can build a list around it, but it's kind of a pointless rule just for the sake of giving us a special rule...
We can keep the Deep Strike, there's nothing wrong at all with that! While it's a huge bonus to our shooty units, it's also a disadvantage to our far more numerous assaulty options, thus balancing it out.

I'd just rather see us get a different army-wide rule than the 'hey, you don't even know which half is deploying!' silliness.

 undertow wrote:
c) I really don't agree with this at all. We have multiple, viable choices in almost every FOC slot. I've seen people do well with completely different armies than mine (I play mostly Tzeentch). I'd like to see more Heavy and Fast Attack choices though, although the WD update helped a lot here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
Flamers didn't even need the change as they were still decent before.

I agree. They were good before. Now I feel sort of dirty when I use them.

Yes, we have a choice per God, but overall, our FOC is top-heavy on HQ's, well fleshed out in Troops & Elites, but barebones in Fast & Heavy. What ever happened to the likes of Exalted Daemons, Changebringers, Plagueriders, Pleasureseekers, the various chariots & all those Daemon engines from the background?!
That's what I mean when I say we need some choices. Yes we currently have options, but they're rather limited overall. Most Daemon armies tend to contain a decent number of very similar units, unlike say the newer armies like Necrons or Dark Eldar tend to have a far, far broader range of various builds.

I agree on the waves thing.
Seen it countless times where a tally list leaves epi on his own waiting to land.
All the while the tally isnt building and his units are slowly being shot to pieces.

I also agree on heavy support, but not fast.

Heavy is a minor 2 options of a walker, which being the only thing with an AV, gets turned into scrap quickly.
Or a daemon prince, which when you kit it out to be effective, actually costs more than a greater daemon which would have been more useful.

Fast attack suits me though.
Seekers are ace, they really are.
Stupidly high movement and a ton of rending attacks allways gets the job done and quickly.

Screamers i allways run 2x6-9 anyway, they haver allways been a gem for tank hunting.
However, i dont have the WD update, so no idea how they changed :(

Flesh hounds i feel are fairly useless unless you plan on going up against psyker heavy, unarmoured enemies, as they have no real use other than that.
Not to mention the karanak upgrade, which for the most part, is a serious waste of points as 2 normal hounds do the job better for 5 points less.

Furies, well, i prefer the 1st 2 options.
These seem useless to me in every way.

Hence why our Fast section needs some real work!

We have two solid options in Screamers & Seekers, both of which have glaring weaknesses. (which is as it should be!)
But then we have the purely "okay" Flesh Hounds who are a bit over-costed, the flimsy as hell Hellflayer which requires you to have much scarier targets to take the heat off of it, and the laughably useless Furies! (hey look at me, I'm an assault unit with no special rules, crappy stats and I have to Deep Strike into play and stand around for a turn! )

I'm actually hoping that Fiends get shifted over to Fast and we get a Tzeentchian chariot/war machine of some kind to provide some slightly heftier speedy units who can tag-team alongside our current super squishy options!

Then it could open up the Elites section for more Nurgle & Khorne units, while Pleasureseekers could then become the Slaaneshii Elites unit. (Daemonettes or hell, even Exalted Alluresses riding Fiends!)

Just found the update on a youtube vid.
Shame theres no way to read half of it -_-

Screamers are actually tons better now.
The fact they can hit with AP2 is pure quality, even if they gained 50% points cost or so.

Flamers dropped by 1/3 of points cost, which they were already worth those points!
I see me spamming 3 small units of horrors now, then purely screamers and flamers lol.

If I wanted to go IG + Daemons, what units would you guys suggest? I would like to take IG because of the cool tanks.

Well depends on what you plan to bring for the IG. I guess if you're running some mechanised gunline you'd want something like flamers for their ability to drop it an soften it up first. Sort of like a drop pod melta unit in a space marine army.

I'm not sure what our best troops at the moment, if it's Daemonettes I'm just lucky.

I think that the biggest issue with the codex is that the troops are just not that good. They are fragile and lack mobility. I usually just take minimum sized troops and hide them while my other slots do the work.

Here are the issues I see:

Each troop is fairly expensive for what you get.

Bloodletters - Man I wish I could get these guys in to assault. Very fragile with just a 5+ save and very slow. They really should be fleet so they have a chance of getting to combat. Right now any semi competent player can avoid them and blow them away. Since daemons have no transports they need help with mobility.

Daemonettes - Probably the best troop choice. Sure they are extremely fragile, but they're sort of cheap and fast with rending. Still it takes a ton of points to make them effective. I just take five and hide them.

Plaguebearers - Used to be boss but now FNP is a 5+ and since they're fearless, they can't go to ground anymore so they are nowhere near the tarpit or objective holders they used to be. Slow and Purposeful means that if you scatter badly they may never make it to an objective.

Horrors - Expensive at 17pts each,T3,WS3, and BS3. They have a 4+ save, but Bolt is a largely wasted upgrade at BS3

Nurglings -??? No one remembers these guys.

Also,without allies anti air is limited to flying tzeentch princes which are expensive, and other than the recently upgraded screamers, the entire army lacks the ability to deal with armor.

I would love to see a new codex soon. I really enjoy them, but the Codex lacks flexibility, and in a game where troops win games poor choices there really hurt the book.

I'd say they lack the ability to kill flyers.
Armour isnt all that much of an issue anymore with the new changes to damage.

Glancing something to death is easy, and when 6 flamers only set you back 138 points, its going to get glanced to death easily.

If you want to kill something outright, screamers get the job done for 2 points more, but with a much better anti-armour attack.
Also, due to upgrades, they can now hunt down pesky termies.
The ++ save and EW means they dont have to worry about being killed too quickly either.



Troops: ill give you this one.
Most are fairly junk.

If you want a static gunline, horrors can pull it off pretty well.
If you want that to last longer, fateweaver does the job.
You save 75% of all wounds, so if your taking units of 10 horrors then they need to cause 40 wounds just to get rid of the unit.
Which if you work out the "to hit" and "to wound" rolls ontop of that, leading up to saves, you will find the other player is pretty hard pressed to remove them.

Also, while they are shooting as your troops, it means they are dumb enough to be ignoring flamers, crushers, princes ect.

Daemons do work and they work well.
Flyers are just a pain at the moment.

 Jackal wrote:
I'd say they lack the ability to kill flyers.

...

Daemons do work and they work well.
Flyers are just a pain at the moment.

Have you read the new FAQs? The BRB FAQ gave skyfire to swooping MCs. So between that and Vector Strike, I would say we have ways of dealing with flyers. Granted, you'll probably have to take Tzeentch princes to get Bolt to use on the flyers, but I do that anyway. So in a 2K game for example, I'll have four S:8 AP1 Skyfire shots at BS5 per turn.

Our most glaring weakness is definitely the roll for preferred wave, but I can live with it.

A friend of mine just won a tournament with Daemons.

He took:

Fateweaver

Lord of Change w/ We are legion

8 Screamers

2 groups of 3 Flamers

3 squads of 5 Horrors

A unit of 14-16? Daemonettes

2 Soulgrinders with Phlem attacks

He wrecked face and won a $50 gift certificate. He used it for the new Chaos Codex.

The Flying Circus of Change is certaintly a competitive build.

 DeffDred wrote:

2 groups of 3 Flamers

Suicide flamer unit?

 kronk wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

2 groups of 3 Flamers

Suicide flamer unit?

I believe that was his intention but I guess they ended up just DSing into perfect possisions on arrival. I wasn't there for the Tourny.

He called me to brag about how he got a $50 book, he'd never buy, for free. His first opponent was Necrons. Then Dark Eldar and too be honest I forgot what he said was the third army.

He was talking to me while I was pumping gas and unloading my work vehicle.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Flying Circus of Change is certaintly a competitive build.

No, it isn't because it's easy to ground FMC's and the army has no sustainable units on the table since those fancy FMC's are running you at least 210pts a pop, on top of a 333pts character who can run off after taking a single wound. (so 3 Princes + Fatey is running you at least around 960'ish pts)

It's a gimmick, just like Eppi lists.

Hell, I fought a moron who tried to run a Tzeentch flying circus last week, and my own Tzeentch Daemons laughed and shot all his foot units off the table turn 1. He then had all of 4 models left to try and tackle my entire army!
Unless you're playing 2k or higher, it's a dumb list to run against a smart player who can get over the initial shock of, "OMG! Brokenz fliers everywherez!!!1!" If you want to be a donkey-cave who runs a pure flyer spam army, then you should do it properly and go buy up some Necrons!

Have you read the new FAQs? The BRB FAQ gave skyfire to swooping MCs. So between that and Vector Strike, I would say we have ways of dealing with flyers. Granted, you'll probably have to take Tzeentch princes to get Bolt to use on the flyers, but I do that anyway. So in a 2K game for example, I'll have four S:8 AP1 Skyfire shots at BS5 per turn.

Our most glaring weakness is definitely the roll for preferred wave, but I can live with it.

So 4 S8 AP1 shots will now wreck 3 flyers (or 6+ for crons)
I prefer to go overkill before i say something is no longer an issue.


Also, the preffered wave is a killer, and if you run a tally list, its pretty much an auto-loss for you if epi isnt on the table from the start.

Experiment 626 wrote:
]No, it isn't because it's easy to ground FMC's

Easy to knock Fateweaver out of the sky?

Hell, I fought a moron who tried to run a Tzeentch flying circus last week

Why was he a moron? Because he didn't have the same list as you?

 DeffDred wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
]No, it isn't because it's easy to ground FMC's

Easy to knock Fateweaver out of the sky?

Hell, I fought a moron who tried to run a Tzeentch flying circus last week

Why was he a moron? Because he didn't have the same list as you?

Yes, Fatey is easy to knock out of the sky, since every time a unit hits him he's got a 33% chance to fail his grounding test. Basic guns that roll lots of dice work wonders at causing halarious face-plants. (or god forbid you suffer a grounding because some Tau hit you with his shiny laser pointer!)
You never shoot the big guns at FMC's unless they're twin-linked and/or have multiple shots. But a unit's worth of Lasguns, Bolters, Pulse Rifles, Shootas, Splinter Rifles, etc... will easily force a grounding test.
And our FMC's are so costly that if you run the full compliment of 4-5, you have no pts left to put any kind of decent ground force together. Then you split that up across the two waves, and well, hope you only fight against chumps, because anyone who can think for more than 10 seconds will work out that it's not too hard to deal with pts-sink monsters and minimum Troops!

And yes, the guy was an idiot. His 1st wave's ground forces were a paltry minimum sized Horror unit and a big squad of 8 Flamers. I simply ignored the FMC's and wiped out his ground forces, giving me full control of the table and the objectives. Sure re-rolled saves are nice and all, but they aren't going to do jack when your 300pts worth of units are taking the shooting of 700+ pts! (36 Horrors all aiming at one unit is just a mere 108 S4/ap4 shots!)
All he could do afterwards was inflict some meaningless casulties with a Breath + vector strike which my larger units easily absobred, while watching his last few ground units got murdered because they had no support.

FMC's work wonders when they're used as support to a larger ground force.
FMC's suck hardcore when you try and make them the actual army though!

 Jackal wrote:

Have you read the new FAQs? The BRB FAQ gave skyfire to swooping MCs. So between that and Vector Strike, I would say we have ways of dealing with flyers. Granted, you'll probably have to take Tzeentch princes to get Bolt to use on the flyers, but I do that anyway. So in a 2K game for example, I'll have four S:8 AP1 Skyfire shots at BS5 per turn.

Our most glaring weakness is definitely the roll for preferred wave, but I can live with it.

So 4 S8 AP1 shots will now wreck 3 flyers (or 6+ for crons)
I prefer to go overkill before i say something is no longer an issue.


Also, the preffered wave is a killer, and if you run a tally list, its pretty much an auto-loss for you if epi isnt on the table from the start.

I never said it wasn't an issue. You said we lack means of dealing with flyers, I merely pointed out that we do have some ways of taking them down.

Lack of does not mean none mate, i think we both got wires crossed on that one.
I simply ment the ways we have of killing flyers is very limited at the moment.
In themed lists like a tally list, you rely on princes only.


Edit:

626 - You really need to clarify before you insult someone, as we cant read minds im affraid, so dont know what the other player had in his list.

But you are correct on downing a FMC.
Basic small arms are used to get them grounded, then they get hit by everything in the enemies arsenal over S5.