Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I'm going over my Chaos Legions, getting ready to sell them, pricing bits, etc. at Games Workshop's website, when it suddenly hits me:

I can't find a Chaos Dreadnought in the Chaos Space Marines army listings. Anywhere.

Does this mean that the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend is replaced the Dreadnoughts? Are they being retooled, and thus are not available to purchase right now?
Is this an oversight on GW's part on the website?

Anyone have any clues?

-Vilegrimm

The Hellbrute replaces (basically just renames) the Dreadnought, but is currently only available through the Dark Vengeance box. Whether a stand alone box comes up remains to be seen.

Okay, thanks for the info Chrysis!

-Vilegrimm

Yeah, you might want to ebay any chaos dreadnoughts you have right now... before everyone notices.

Yeah if you ebay anything make the auctions for like 7 days. If you pick up the codex on Saturday and find out you want them then you can pull the auctions. Either way it's kind of gambling. In the New/Rumor's forum there's a CSM codex thread going. You may want to check it out to see what the current codex has to offer. They update page 1 with the new actual rumors.

great...I had 3 of the damn things, one forgeworld

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
great...I had 3 of the damn things, one forgeworld

So, now you have 3 Hellbrutes, one of them forge world.

The hellbrute's rules appear to be the Chas Dread rules; with the added bonus of new codex upgrades/buffs.

why bother renaming them? all it does is make the fluff more spastic and broken and not make any sense

Why sell them because the name changed?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
why bother renaming them? all it does is make the fluff more spastic and broken and not make any sense

I think this new Chaos Codex is trying to get away from the "it's like a Loyalist ____ but Chaos, so we'll just put Chaos in front of the name." A big problem with the last Codex was that it just felt like Vanilla Marines with spikes. I think Kelly wants Chaos to feel like Chaos again. Changing the name up a bit, so we have less Chaos (insert Loyalist thing here), and more things that sound actually Chaotic, is a good move. It gives the units more flavor. Chaos Dreadnoughts were hardly a big part of Chaos Fluff. They were just kind of there hanging out in the background. Changing a name is hardly going to make the fluff for a "daemonically possessed giant robot housing the half dead body of a 10,000 year old super human soldier" make any less sense.



That being said, no, Chaos Dreadnoughts are not a thing of the past. They live on. They're just called Helbrutes now. And they're much better than the last Codex.

._.
Really?????
Sorry but the hellbrute isnt in my sort of tactical ideals for chaos play style...

 Nurgle wrote:
._.
Really?????
Sorry but the hellbrute isnt in my sort of tactical ideals for chaos play style...

Then don't play them?

The dreadnought may have been renamed, but at least it doesn't look as silly as the 'fiends or the damn dragon flyer. I really wish that CSM would have regular issue SM stuff that is slightly to moderately disfigured/warped.

 helium42 wrote:
The dreadnought may have been renamed, but at least it doesn't look as silly as the 'fiends or the damn dragon flyer. I really wish that CSM would have regular issue SM stuff that is slightly to moderately disfigured/warped.

No thank you.


Chaos Space Marines are not supposed to be "regular issue SM stuff that is slightly to moderately disfigured/warped". These are guys who have been exposed to 10,000 years of raw warp energy. They shouldn't be at all mistakable for standard Space Marines. They aren't Space Marines with spikes. They should have incredibly warped and alien/daemon looking demon engines like the Heldrake or the Fiends. They should have tentacles and extra appendages. They should be mutated practically beyond recognition, not slightly disfigured.

 Darth Bob wrote:
These are guys who have been exposed to 10,000 years of raw warp energy.

Not completely accurate. Even discounting recent renegades, time doesn't flow the same in the warp. For some of them, the Heresy was literally yesterday.

And for some it could have been tens of thousands of years. The Dark Mechanicus and daemon forges have no problem making new things, and experimenting. Mechanical/biological combinations are very prevelant in the fluff.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
These are guys who have been exposed to 10,000 years of raw warp energy.

Not completely accurate. Even discounting recent renegades, time doesn't flow the same in the warp. For some of them, the Heresy was literally yesterday.

I mentioned that merely to emphasize my point. I'm aware that time passes differently in the Warp, but it doesn't matter. The amount of raw Warp energy they are exposed to, regardless of the period of time that they were exposed, has caused severe mutation of the body and soul. Additionally, a lot of Chaos Marines haven't been directly in Warp-space. Some of them have been inhabiting planets where the Materium and Immaterium overlap. These are areas where there is severe Warp radiation but are still in the Materium, and so time passes normally.

The point is: Chaos Marines shouldn't just be Loyalist Marines, but evil. They're much more than that.

Depends on what's in the codex, but AFAIK, no, they've replaced it with the hellbrute and maulerfiend, which was a mistake. I understand supplementing the dreadnoughts with them, but not getting rid of them.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
Depends on what's in the codex, but AFAIK, no, they've replaced it with the hellbrute and maulerfiend, which was a mistake. I understand supplementing the dreadnoughts with them, but not getting rid of them.

The Dreadnoughts were not replaced with Helbrutes. The Dreadnoughts are Helbrutes. And vice-versa. For all intents and purposes, it's just a name change.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
Depends on what's in the codex, but AFAIK, no, they've replaced it with the hellbrute and maulerfiend, which was a mistake. I understand supplementing the dreadnoughts with them, but not getting rid of them.

The Dreadnoughts were not replaced with Helbrutes. The Dreadnoughts are Helbrutes. And vice-versa. For all intents and purposes, it's just a name change.

It's not like we haven't gone through this before. Eldar Dreadnought? Ork Dreadnought? Those got renamed to Wraithlord and Deff Dread. While they weren't accompanied by quite different new miniatures, the Helbrute is recogniseable enough as a Dreadnought to know what's going on.

basically, stop panicking. Your Forgeworld Chaos Dreadnoughts are simply Forgeworld Helbrutes now. The name change does nothing except change... the name.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
why bother renaming them? all it does is make the fluff more spastic and broken and not make any sense

It's been done at least twice before. Eldar Wraithlords used to be called Eldar Dreadnoughts, and Deff Dreads were previously Ork Dreadnoughts. They were both name changes for the better, and I appreciate that Chaos is getting a little more distanced from loyalists with the name change.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
Depends on what's in the codex, but AFAIK, no, they've replaced it with the hellbrute and maulerfiend, which was a mistake. I understand supplementing the dreadnoughts with them, but not getting rid of them.

The Dreadnoughts were not replaced with Helbrutes. The Dreadnoughts are Helbrutes. And vice-versa. For all intents and purposes, it's just a name change.

I haven't seen the stat line or the options for a Hellbrute, but they certainly don't seem the same. A Chaos Dreadnought is still "A fallen marine, given a new lease on life in a gigantic metal shell that enhances it's physical power and observation skill". The ____Fiend is a daemon engine, and it appears that the hellbrute is either a chaos dreadnought that'd been possessed, or a dreadnought shell that's been corrupted, without a Marine inside.

The difference is a nuance, but I still like the idea that the Marine doesn't need to be possessed, or have anything to do with daemons to be effective.

Looking through the newest wd and trying to decipher the review page with the Helbrute, it seems it's gotten slightly better although options seem less.
The crazed rule has been improved at least to only be triggered on loss of hull points and only to target enemy units.
Base cost has gone up though, but it might be because of improved starting wargear and armor.
They are still in and now they might have a more appealing option, but of course we'll have to wait about a week to see.

As for what a Helbrute is I believe they are still basically the same as Space Marine Dreadnoughts, just driven mad by their inclosure in the armor and lack of stasis. So they are still the same in all but name. I believe they were described this way in the September issue of wd

 Platuan4th wrote:


Not completely accurate. Even discounting recent renegades, time doesn't flow the same in the warp. For some of them, the Heresy was literally yesterday.

and for others it was 20000 years ago. time can flow different in two ways in the warp.
I mean imperials got that story about a ship that gets stuck in the warp for some time , jumps out it . goes back to resupply and its own fleet blow the ship up , because the ship with the designetion the lost one gives is being build at that time ,

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
I haven't seen the stat line or the options for a Hellbrute, but they certainly don't seem the same. A Chaos Dreadnought is still "A fallen marine, given a new lease on life in a gigantic metal shell that enhances it's physical power and observation skill".

You missed the part where they consider it a punishment and/or a cage and hate it and go crazy and kill everyone. But I don't see why you're comparing the description to the statline?

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
The ____Fiend is a daemon engine, and it appears that the hellbrute is either a chaos dreadnought that'd been possessed, or a dreadnought shell that's been corrupted, without a Marine inside.

Did you miss the warped face staring out of where the sarcophogus would have been?

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
The difference is a nuance, but I still like the idea that the Marine doesn't need to be possessed, or have anything to do with daemons to be effective.

The difference is the DV model and the rename, and that's it. IIRC, people said the Helbrute entry makes mention of Helbrutes that aren't as warped or mutated as others, which would fit the old models like a glove.

They're the same thing. It's just a rename.

 -Loki- wrote:

The difference is the DV model and the rename, and that's it. IIRC, people said the Helbrute entry makes mention of Helbrutes that aren't as warped or mutated as others, which would fit the old models like a glove.

You don't even need the Chaos Codex to see that. It's in the 6th Edition BRB. There's a picture of one on page 397.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 helium42 wrote:
The dreadnought may have been renamed, but at least it doesn't look as silly as the 'fiends or the damn dragon flyer. I really wish that CSM would have regular issue SM stuff that is slightly to moderately disfigured/warped.

No thank you.


Chaos Space Marines are not supposed to be "regular issue SM stuff that is slightly to moderately disfigured/warped". These are guys who have been exposed to 10,000 years of raw warp energy. They shouldn't be at all mistakable for standard Space Marines. They aren't Space Marines with spikes. They should have incredibly warped and alien/daemon looking demon engines like the Heldrake or the Fiends. They should have tentacles and extra appendages. They should be mutated practically beyond recognition, not slightly disfigured.

There's also the Dark Mechancius that builds crazed Daemon all the time, trying to make warped creations of Metal and daemonic flesh and possessions.

I still kinda wish they changed the Land Raider though.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
why bother renaming them? all it does is make the fluff more spastic and broken and not make any sense

I think this new Chaos Codex is trying to get away from the "it's like a Loyalist ____ but Chaos, so we'll just put Chaos in front of the name." A big problem with the last Codex was that it just felt like Vanilla Marines with spikes. I think Kelly wants Chaos to feel like Chaos again. Changing the name up a bit, so we have less Chaos (insert Loyalist thing here), and more things that sound actually Chaotic, is a good move. It gives the units more flavor. Chaos Dreadnoughts were hardly a big part of Chaos Fluff. They were just kind of there hanging out in the background. Changing a name is hardly going to make the fluff for a "daemonically possessed giant robot housing the half dead body of a 10,000 year old super human soldier" make any less sense.



That being said, no, Chaos Dreadnoughts are not a thing of the past. They live on. They're just called Helbrutes now. And they're much better than the last Codex.

I REALLY like the direction they're going with this. One reason I hated chaos was because it was spiky loyalist. I like khorne berzerkers, but only because of the helms and chain axes. It was still pretty space marine-y. I think dark vengeance is the best starter set ever made design wise. The chaos stuff looks pretty damn chaos-y, and not just reskinned, and while the spess muhreens are still muhreens, they've got a lot of neat detail that really sets them apart from the standard ward fare.

 Necroshea wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
why bother renaming them? all it does is make the fluff more spastic and broken and not make any sense

I think this new Chaos Codex is trying to get away from the "it's like a Loyalist ____ but Chaos, so we'll just put Chaos in front of the name." A big problem with the last Codex was that it just felt like Vanilla Marines with spikes. I think Kelly wants Chaos to feel like Chaos again. Changing the name up a bit, so we have less Chaos (insert Loyalist thing here), and more things that sound actually Chaotic, is a good move. It gives the units more flavor. Chaos Dreadnoughts were hardly a big part of Chaos Fluff. They were just kind of there hanging out in the background. Changing a name is hardly going to make the fluff for a "daemonically possessed giant robot housing the half dead body of a 10,000 year old super human soldier" make any less sense.



That being said, no, Chaos Dreadnoughts are not a thing of the past. They live on. They're just called Helbrutes now. And they're much better than the last Codex.

I REALLY like the direction they're going with this. One reason I hated chaos was because it was spiky loyalist. I like khorne berzerkers, but only because of the helms and chain axes. It was still pretty space marine-y. I think dark vengeance is the best starter set ever made design wise. The chaos stuff looks pretty damn chaos-y, and not just reskinned, and while the spess muhreens are still muhreens, they've got a lot of neat detail that really sets them apart from the standard ward fare.

Yeah, after seeing endless complaints that Chaos aren't Chaosy enough and are just spikey loyalists, seeing complaints not that they're not just spikey loyalists is just... I don't even know anymore.

To be fair, they could be different people. While I think the new models are for the most part good, they don't exactly fit with the aesthetics of my chosen army (Ahriman's Cabal) or an army I'd like to start (Alpha Legion.)