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Ah, yeah that was what I was getting at, it's a good idea to have at least one unit capable of operations like that, but it shouldn't spread to the rest of the force

 AustonT wrote:
You aren't fighting a war, you're serving the community. Look the part.

"looking the part" should be a consideration, but it's much, much lower on the list than appropriate functionality and comfort.

 Kaldor wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
You aren't fighting a war, you're serving the community. Look the part.

"looking the part" should be a consideration, but it's much, much lower on the list than appropriate functionality and comfort.

I disagree utterly. If you want to be tacticool spetnatz, go work at the mall, or even better, join the Boy Scouts. You're not Stazi, and not an "operator." You're an officer of the Law of and Court. Act like it.

 Frazzled wrote:
Act like it.

We don't dress soldiers in bright red uniforms because 'that's how they should look'. We make concessions for functionality. We don't mandate that female officers wear skirts anymore, nor do we insist that anyone wear polished dress shoes or ties on patrol duty.

What is a police officer supposed to look like?

More importantly, why should this imaginary image be preserved at the expense of comfort and functionality? Why shouldn't I be able to have pants with extra pockets, or a load bearing vest? What is it about the (impractical and outdated) equipment belt that you want to keep? Should police also be restricted to revolvers, because "that's what they're supposed to use"?

 Kaldor wrote:
Should police also be restricted to revolvers, because "that's what they're supposed to use"?

Might cut down on NDs!

 Kaldor wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Act like it.

We don't dress soldiers in bright red uniforms because 'that's how they should look'.

AND cops aint fething soldiers. THATS THE PROBLEM.

We make concessions for functionality.

Functionality doesn't require tacticool. LAPD in the 80s didn't have tacticool but managed everything nicely. Plus they actually worked out, unlike many a local PoPo I see around these parts.

nor do we insist that anyone wear polished dress shoes or ties on patrol duty.

You should. If you dress like a slob you will be taken for a slob. Dress like Stazi and you wilkl be thought of as Stazi. you know that wuit the bs about it being functional.

What is a police officer supposed to look like?

Like a police officer and not wannabe Seal Team Six. You're not an occupier. You're not badass. You're a police officer serving the citizenry.

More importantly, why should this imaginary image be preserved at the expense of comfort and functionality? Why shouldn't I be able to have pants with extra pockets, or a load bearing vest? What is it about the (impractical and outdated) equipment belt that you want to keep? Should police also be restricted to revolvers, because "that's what they're supposed to use"?

Because it makes you look like a mall tacticool tough guy and you get that mentality instead of the mentality of a police officer.

If Frazzled is saying this, one should think about that.

Kaldor wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
You aren't fighting a war, you're serving the community. Look the part.

"looking the part" should be a consideration, but it's much, much lower on the list than appropriate functionality and comfort.

I think you must have confused me with someone who thinks you should carry around a portable air conditioner and ride a segway in the name of comfort and functionality. Image conveys a number of messages to the public that is often much more important than any other factor, first impressions and all that. Police that cultivate an image of armed enforcers become seen as such, those that cultivate the image of professionals and public servants tend to be received more positively. It's the difference between law enforcement and policing. In todays culture there are too many enforcers and not enough cops.

Seaward wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
Should police also be restricted to revolvers, because "that's what they're supposed to use"?

Might cut down on NDs!

Meh IMHO revolvers have a better chance to ND than semi autos. The original argument is silly in the first place because it was settled 30 years ago. People Like Kaldor think that this is approproate for police because of all the wonderful comfort and functionality. If you question why rozzers need MP5s the response is: what should they carry revolvers and a truncheon? It's a clown question.

The answer is snowballs.

 AustonT wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
You aren't fighting a war, you're serving the community. Look the part.

"looking the part" should be a consideration, but it's much, much lower on the list than appropriate functionality and comfort.

I think you must have confused me with someone who thinks you should carry around a portable air conditioner and ride a segway in the name of comfort and functionality. Image conveys a number of messages to the public that is often much more important than any other factor, first impressions and all that. Police that cultivate an image of armed enforcers become seen as such, those that cultivate the image of professionals and public servants tend to be received more positively. It's the difference between law enforcement and policing. In todays culture there are too many enforcers and not enough cops.

Agreed. back in the day in LA we were routinely rousted by The Man. However The Man dressed and acted in a professional manner. Unlike others I always got along with them in these interactions. Same to same for the fine constabulary in the Austin region of Wiener Command.

However I've seen and had to interact with ICE and others in my travels. Almost invariably, the guys dressed up for combat didn't act professional.

If you think you're out gunned with a revolver thou needs to get thy self to a range. Only takes one shot to settle an engagement.


Any way, since this thread is filled with gunners, here's the new CCW holster I'm using. KM like. http://oldfaithfulholsters.com/

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If you think you're out gunned with a revolver thou needs to get thy self to a range. Only takes one shot to settle an engagement.


Any way, since this thread is filled with gunners, here's the new CCW holster I'm using. KM like. http://oldfaithfulholsters.com/

This holster is wiener dog approved.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If you think you're out gunned with a revolver thou needs to get thy self to a range. Only takes one shot to settle an engagement.


Any way, since this thread is filled with gunners, here's the new CCW holster I'm using. KM like. http://oldfaithfulholsters.com/

In a shoot out a Revolver has a disadvantage over a weapon that uses a Magazine. It takes longer to reload a revolver.

Yes there are reloading aids, but why put an extra cog in the machine.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If you think you're out gunned with a revolver thou needs to get thy self to a range. Only takes one shot to settle an engagement.


Any way, since this thread is filled with gunners, here's the new CCW holster I'm using. KM like. http://oldfaithfulholsters.com/

In a shoot out a Revolver has a disadvantage over a weapon that uses a Magazine. It takes longer to reload a revolver.

Yes there are reloading aids, but why put an extra cog in the machine.

For the sake of argument how are those aids any different than a magazine? They store rounds, deliver them to the gun, and are discarded when empty.
If I wanted to argue against revolvers I'd go more to capacity, which is a legitimate concern. I've been witness to countless debates between cops old and new about semis vs revolvers in the end there is no resolution to be had.

A magazine is more compact so you can carry more of them. IE: each round takes less space in a mag then in a revolver aid.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A magazine is more compact so you can carry more of them. IE: each round takes less space in a mag then in a revolver aid.

Right, but you said why add another cog in the machine. That's the same cog.

 AustonT wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A magazine is more compact so you can carry more of them. IE: each round takes less space in a mag then in a revolver aid.

Right, but you said why add another cog in the machine. That's the same cog.

A mag is a speed loader is a moon clip. All are a matter of training and practice to use efficiently and quickly.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A magazine is more compact so you can carry more of them. IE: each round takes less space in a mag then in a revolver aid.

Right, but you said why add another cog in the machine. That's the same cog.

A mag is a speed loader is a moon clip. All are a matter of training and practice to use efficiently and quickly.

Perhaps, but I would be money that the same person using the 2 different systems would load the Magazine faster then the Moon clip.

Sure, anything can be done fast, the Magazine's design lends itself to being a faster system on an objective level.

I must be having trouble with English today, I have no idea what KM was trying to say. I'm suprised theres no actual comparison between top revolver and top semi auto shooters. This guy is no Jerry Miculek, but you'd be hard pressed to say he reloads slower than a magfed semi.

 AustonT wrote:
I must be having trouble with English today, I have no idea what KM was trying to say. I'm suprised theres no actual comparison between top revolver and top semi auto shooters. This guy is no Jerry Miculek, but you'd be hard pressed to say he reloads slower than a magfed semi.

I was concurring with your "Same cog" statement, specifically that the primary revolver reloading aids, (Speed loaders and moon clips) are the same (conceptually) as magazines, and that using any of them effectively is a matter of training and practice.

every once in awhile I forget how to speak English; I wasn't being sarcastic.
Thanks for clarifying.

Thats just an example of practice, and with practice anyone can be just as good with one as another.

It still doesn't change that one is easier to use then the other. Plus there is the bulk factor as well, not to mention ammo capacity.

 AustonT wrote:
every once in awhile I forget how to speak English; I wasn't being sarcastic.
Thanks for clarifying.

I figured. Sometimes I forget to speak english and communicate a jumbled mess so I've been there XD

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Act like it.

We don't dress soldiers in bright red uniforms because 'that's how they should look'.

AND cops aint fething soldiers. THATS THE PROBLEM.

Not sure if trolling, or just...

Well. You know.

Look, we don't use a bell as the only means to alert firefighters that a fire is on, just because that's how it's supposed to be. We don't make doctors wear candles and reflectors on their heads, we don't insist women stay in the kitchen, we don't prevent interracial marriage, because "that's how it's supposed to be"...

We adapt. We utilise the most effective version of the gear we need. We sacrifice form for function. That's how it is in the world (as I'm sure you're aware) and policing is no different.

Functionality doesn't require tacticool. LAPD in the 80s didn't have tacticool but managed everything nicely. Plus they actually worked out, unlike many a local PoPo I see around these parts.

What are you even talking about? You've got some image in your head, and anything that doesn't match it is 'tacticool'? Police in the 80's managed fine, I'm sure. What's that got to do with wearing boots instead of shoes, vests instead of belts, and cargo pants instead of dress pants? If I wear different pants, I'll approach my job differently?

Look, maybe you vary your level of professionalism depending on what you're wearing, but don't project that childishness onto others.

Frazzled wrote:

What is a police officer supposed to look like?

Like a police officer

And what is that supposed to look like? Do I wear blue? Or white? Or black? Or Red? What sort of hat do I wear? Can I use anything that was invented in the last 30 years, or must I be restricted to pre-war equipment to preserve your sensibilities?