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You mean changing abilities of weapons that were written in a completely different edition? Changes that completely changed how those characters played after the rules change?

And pre-faq there was nothing saying it was wrong. People just did not like the idea of working the system.

So what if it changed how characters played? New rules = new metagame, just get on with it.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well since the model you have posted has the blade as far back as it can be modelled it doesn't give an accurate view.
It can be an inch or so further out making it more axe like.

Also since it can (from the look of it) be stabbed out and swung that makes it a poleaxe IMHO.

The model actually allows the pole to fully extend and turn completely in the socket.

Its definitly a halberd.

I realised this like 100 million years ago and pointed out that its a halberd. In that thread it was almost agreed on that it was an axe/halberd not a sword.

The people saying this is a sword need to think and try to get rid of your anti favourism before looking at that weapon and tell me what it is.

If you ever built Libby dread the arm, halberd is slidable in place and in no way or shape does it look like a sword, have you see such a squashed and fat blade? 40k is unrealistic but I have not seen another model with that kind of "sword"

Here is the weapon, what would you say it is? Sword, Axe/Halberd/Glaive, Mace/Maul, or Lance?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Here is the weapon, what would you say it is? Sword, Axe/Halberd/Glaive, Mace/Maul, or Lance?

When on the model, you know where it counts, it looks like a piston driven combat blade. Knife/short sword on a piston. Off the model it look like a piece to a furioso libraian that can't be used without the rest of the model. But that's just me.

That looks like a "Knife/short sword on a piston" so what you mean is a Polearm?

 DeathReaper wrote:
That looks like a "Knife/short sword on a piston" so what you mean is a Polearm?

Which is just a varient of a Halberd.

 Bausk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Here is the weapon, what would you say it is? Sword, Axe/Halberd/Glaive, Mace/Maul, or Lance?

When on the model, you know where it counts, it looks like a piston driven combat blade. Knife/short sword on a piston. Off the model it look like a piece to a furioso libraian that can't be used without the rest of the model. But that's just me.

Here are a picture with different polearm weapons:



Isn't a knife/short sword on a long tube very simmilar to some of the weapons listed about.

Wrong kind of piston.

http://www.google.com/search?q=hydraulic+piston

Why does Piston driven make any difference?

How else is a man-machine supposed to move anything if not with Pistons?


All that matters is what the weapon looks like, not how the model would fluffily use it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Wrong kind of piston.

http://www.google.com/search?q=hydraulic+piston

Thank you for pointing that out, I did think of it but forgot the name of this thing, but this brings the question, a hydraulic piston has a thin tube inside a wider tube so it can slide in and out but where you you see that on the model?

The pole is same size all the way from the blade to the end. If your sayind its unextended meaning the thinner tube is still inside the bigger tube then how do you prove it? we can only see what it look like and it looks like a Halberd.

 Marthike wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Wrong kind of piston.

http://www.google.com/search?q=hydraulic+piston

Thank you for pointing that out, I did think of it but forgot the name of this thing, but this brings the question, a hydraulic piston has a thin tube inside a wider tube so it can slide in and out but where you you see that on the model?

The pole is same size all the way from the blade to the end. If your sayind its unextended meaning the thinner tube is still inside the bigger tube then how do you prove it? we can only see what it look like and it looks like a Halberd.

And why would it even matter?

The weapon looks like an axe head. It just happens to be on a pole.


It certaintly doesn't look like a sword.

 Marthike wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Wrong kind of piston.

http://www.google.com/search?q=hydraulic+piston

Thank you for pointing that out, I did think of it but forgot the name of this thing, but this brings the question, a hydraulic piston has a thin tube inside a wider tube so it can slide in and out but where you you see that on the model?

The pole is same size all the way from the blade to the end. If your sayind its unextended meaning the thinner tube is still inside the bigger tube then how do you prove it? we can only see what it look like and it looks like a Halberd.

There's other ways to drive it. But the driving force is irrelevant.

And I'm not trying to get involved in the weapon type discussion - just wanted to bring up the other piston type.

Well since you asked, the smaller tube is in the fore arm section which is cylindrical and much larger than the smaller 'pole' section. The 'pole' section only moves forward and back around half an inch from the fore arm (read as hand) which when scaled to its size is not what I'd call the length of a pole. The actuators and bulk of dread arm would limit its range of movement making an over head swipe possible due to the length of the 'pole' section and blade it closer to a short sword or knife swipe than a full sized halberd.

The piston like appearance and limited range of movement would a make a short, hard and fast piston driven stab a great and much more effective attack than the over head swipe (faster, more force applied in a smaller area etc). So it would be a halberd if the weapons 'pole' was longer than an a scaled 8-10 inches. The blade is just as long and half as wide scale wise, the it makes no difference how its styled. Its a short blade on an equally short 'handle', not the making of a pole arm as its main defining characteristic is over all length.

Another way the dread can hold a weapon is with a hand actuator, which would basically be a smaller variation of the Venerable Dreads CCW (or even just use it and put a pole arm in it) as it is a hand with an opposable thumb. Also you could just model the full length of the shaft extended and have the tip at the hilt (cut it off) at the back of the fore arm. that would be long enough foe a pole arm weapon.

Again, you're welcome to play it however you like but I would not play it as anything more than a standard force knife/sword. Translation; Its my opinion on the matter and you're not likely to vs me in a battle with a furioso librarian anytime soon. Perhaps you should be happy that no matter how you cut it (pun definatly intended and *rolls 2D6* causes instant death!) my stance is not going to affect your game play and not bother arguing a point directly with a person who's opinion is not likely to change. Double translation; HYWPI, not RAW.

Is this what you are referring to as a "force knife/sword"?



To me it looks very similar to This: (Note this only has a cutting surface on one side, like the pic above).



as opposed to This: (Note this has cutting surfaces on both sides).





Or were you referring to something else?

You are not including the effect of scale when discussing your images Deathreaper.

While the Furiosos' Force Weapon would likely be a polearm in the hands of an 8 ft tall space marine (like the example in your second pic), it's possible it's a small knife on a piston in the 'hands' (aka: the arm-casing) of a 24ft tall dreadnought.

This is why i'm saying it's critical to determine if the blade on the end is the weapon, or the entire piece including the pole is.

Because scale does not enter into it.

If it were a question of Short Sword Vs. Zwiehander then Scale is everything. But Sword Vs. Polearm is not a matter of scale.

Either way the Furioso weapon in the first pic above is almost as tall as the dread itself.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because scale does not enter into it.

If it were a question of Short Sword Vs. Zwiehander then Scale is everything. But Sword Vs. Polearm is not a matter of scale.

Either way the Furioso weapon in the first pic above is almost as tall as the dread itself.

Redundant issue is redundant. But since you asked, compare the size, style and length of hilt (when models as fully extended as possible on the FLD) to a GK falchion. The over all length when scaled to a dreadnought is comparable to it more than a halberd.



Totally awesome axe head comparasion shot


And...


...a Few...


..examples...


...of real...


...pole arms


(ooo pictures) I know the last one is the same weapon, but its entire length is used in this model and warrants the use as a full pole arm.

Your last pic illustrates the point perfectly.

An unmodified Furioso Librarian weapon is "a full pole arm." as you illustrate.

The weapon is almost 3 inches long from end to end.

How tall is a Dread?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Your last pic illustrates the point perfectly.

An unmodified Furioso Librarian weapon is "a full pole arm." as you illustrate.

The weapon is almost 3 inches long from end to end.

How tall is a Dread?

Its not the over all length, but the length when used in the vanilla FLD s 'hand'. it limits itself to the comparable length of a shorter weapon as most of (3/4) the 'haft' is encased in the fore arm section of the arm, which it self is the same over all length as a standard DCCW. The first and last halberd examples (I see you missed the contempltor is holding one as well) are being wielded in an actual hand, not encased, and can take full advantage of the length to use both arms a significantly increased threat range (both are characteristicts of a halberd).

Thinking about it more, the default could also be used as a lance..but there are no rules for force lances unfortuanatly. I would allow those rules to be converted over from a power lance, its not even hard to do. Just ass Force to the power lance and your done.

The Furioso has big hands, so you are penalizing it because of how the weapon looks while he is holding it?

Basically because most of the 'haft' is encased in the hand you do not see it as a polearm?

Interesting theory, one hardly anyone would agree with.

If the pole encased in that fashion represents a piston and is therefore part of the 'hand' rather than as part of the 'weapon'? i can easily see (and agree with) his point.

I think you'll find it's not as 'cut and dry' as you believe...

 DeathReaper wrote:
So basically because most of the 'haft' is encased in the hand you do not see it as a polearm?

Interesting theory, one hardly anyone would agree with.

One its not a 'theory' (A hypothetical as you imply), but it is applied physics and definition on description of how a weapon is used. Even attempting to base that on the respondents in this thread is an ill assumption, especially considering the proportional difference in percentage of those that agree, those that don't and considering those that don't care; is not to far of 20% to 60% with 20% not caring one way or the other. By technicality I should probably be counted in the not caring one way or the other group but I'm defending my opinion. Based on this information the majority agrees with you, and I'm totally fine with that, and applied to more than 10 people several people would agree with me based on present statistics. No luck is needed.

It in a fixed vector, where only a fixed amount of applied force can be exerted from the limited range of movement and small arc of swing. That is not how any pole arm is used, even less applicable to a halberd. The altenate way it is modeled as shown is how a pole arm, and more specifically a halberd, is used. Even just cutting the bottom of the hilt and extending the weapon out to full length not including the forearm would be enough to satisfy a large arc of swing and be a pole arm in my opinion.

It is about what the weapon looks like.

we are told to "look at the model to tell which type of Force weapon it has" P.60

Looking at the model the force weapon looks like this:




"if it's an axe or halberd, it's a Force axe" P.60

That pic is one of an axe or halberd, and not of a Sword.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is about what the weapon looks like.

we are told to "look at the model to tell which type of Force weapon it has" P.60

Looking at the model the force weapon looks like this:




"if it's an axe or halberd, it's a Force axe" P.60

That pic is one of an axe or halberd, and not of a Sword.

Sigh, look at the model not the weapon in isolation.

I'm done, your arguing a moot point over an opinion that is never going to have any impact on any game you play because I don't live in the US and have no intention of going to a country that can't spell or pronounce the element Aluminium (My opinion, nothing to get upset about). I've repeatedly stated that I would play it either way but my personal opinion on the matter is its not a halberd for the plethora of reasons stated above.

Happy gaming.

Sigh, that is the model of the weapon we are supposed to look at.

we are told to "look at the model to tell which type of Force weapon it has" P.60 we are told to determine what type of weapon the model is wielding.

So naturally we look to the weapon to figure this out.

How you are seeing a Sword out of that is beyond me. It is clearly a Halberd.

P.S. "country that can't spell or pronounce the element Aluminium" In the U.S. our dialect of English pronounces it differently than other parts of the world, and it is correctly pronounced in the U.S. as the English Language is evolving organism and not static.

BTW you really should visit the U.S. for the food alone. but there is also some scenery that is truly breathtaking.

 DeathReaper wrote:
P.S. "country that can't spell or pronounce the element Aluminium" In the U.S. our dialect of English pronounces it differently than other parts of the world, and it is correctly pronounced in the U.S. as the English Language is evolving organism and not static.

Off topic to be sure, but far as I know many common differences in spelling is because the US still uses older ways of writing words. When the Brits complain about it they always seem to have the misunderstanding that they're the ones using the "original" English. ;-)

But on topic, halberd to me. Complaining that it might not move enough etc is a bit like claiming a model can't use a holstered weapon.

Pretty clear its a halberd from those pictures.

Sadly it's a halberd. Free buff to dreads with no drawback.
Makes dreads pretty dangerous really.

Now I'm sad I traded that bit away to a buddy who wanted a daemon prince with a giant halberd.

I did find the argument amusing though. Even though it's clearly a halberd, I'm going to call it a knife because of a piston grip. Well, I'm calling my bolters "pistols" in combat, because a few of my marines are 1 handing them.

-Matt