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They have mutation sprues now, though. You could always add them.





Plus your own GS skills, etc.

It's much harder to remove detail than it is to add it.

 Ailaros wrote:

I agree that possession and mutation are different things. It's part of what is bothering me here. It's like GW is making the statement that selling one's soul or being possessed by demons automatically means that you're going to have horns sprouting out your armpits.

To be fair, they now include random eyeballs and tentacles in their genre.

I mean, when the thousand suns went to tzeentch, did tzeentch bestow his demonic blessing by mutating them? No, he did it by destroying their mortal flesh. There was nothing LEFT to mutate. Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen a single GW mini that was devoted to khorne that has a mutation on it. The only thing close I've seen is forgeworld, and even then, that was a tiny set of demon horns on the khrone lord, and it was tastefully done.

Correct if I'm wrong, but I believe the thousand sons, because of their experimenting with chaos, started to mutate. They were turned into dust as a result of a desperate attempt to stop the mutation with a powerful spell, and the price was they lost their souls (the rubric marines) in return for this.

Proximity to chaos = mutation in mortals. It is a fundamental theme in the storyline of 40k. You can tell if a planet is tainted by chaos, by the rate of mutation.

Chaos Space marines have such incredible superhuman bodies, they are the only 'humans' whose bodies resist this mutation. That's why they can live in the eye of terror, but their bodies will all be changed no matter what.

If you are a renegade, and you don't want to mutate, you can do that by not hanging out near anything CHAOS, which includes living near the eye of terror, maelstrom, or any kind of warp rift, or even chaos worshippers.

However, without the light of the EMPEROR OF MANKIND to guide you, you will eventually be preyed upon and tempted by the chaos gods whether you like it or not

 Ailaros wrote:
They have mutation sprues now, though. You could always add them.





Plus your own GS skills, etc.

It's much harder to remove detail than it is to add it.

Hm, not bad, it's been a while since I fiddled around for bitz so I didn't notice they have those now (even if it's just two or so sprue's)

MrMoustaffa wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't see how adding all that detail makes these models look more "chaosy". It just seems to clutter up the models. I think they could have done a lot more with less. you know, less is more and all that.

Also, what about a guy who wanted to do night lords or alpha legion? Aren't both of those forces supposed to be almost completely free of mutation? Other than just buying regular space marine kits (which wouldn't fit at all) how are they supposed to justify the guy with 3 legs and a 3rd hand growing out of his forehead? They should have left more mutation and other "extreme" bits loose, so that you can choose whether you want them or not.

You can argue all you want about how the models look more like "Chaos" but nobody should be forced to just take that much detail if they didn't want it. The way they've gone, there is literally no middle ground. You've either got regular marines, or SUPER CHAOS EXTREME MARINES. And of course, the people stuck in the middle are going to be mad.

What I'm trying to say is that they need to leave all the crazy chaos bitz and spikes as OPTIONAL, not molded onto the model where they're almost impossible to remove.

So you're complaining that you have to remove an aesthetic part from the model? Why? That's like buying Dark Angels Marines and complaining about all of the robes, or buying Space Wolves and complaining about the wolf skulls and runes. That's Chaos' aesthetic (or antithesis to aesthetics), is that they're not visually pleasing. Now maybe if you play Slaanesh you will want to make some alterations, but Chaos doesn't care about looking pretty. Chaotic Attributes are not pretty, they don't look good.

Also Alpha Legion aren't true "Chaos" per se, they're more like Renegades. And a good amount of the Night Lords have some sort of mutation/Chaos attribute so there's that.

Ailaros wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Possessed are Space Marines possessed by Daemons, everyone else is a mutant, big difference.

Considering an Aspiring Champion is trying to gain the attention of the dark gods and their gifts, Why wouldn't he be having a mutation showing off his loyalty and sacrifice to chaos with the gift that makes him stronger?

I agree that possession and mutation are different things. It's part of what is bothering me here. It's like GW is making the statement that selling one's soul or being possessed by demons automatically means that you're going to have horns sprouting out your armpits.

I mean, when the thousand suns went to tzeentch, did tzeentch bestow his demonic blessing by mutating them? No, he did it by destroying their mortal flesh. There was nothing LEFT to mutate. Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen a single GW mini that was devoted to khorne that has a mutation on it. The only thing close I've seen is forgeworld, and even then, that was a tiny set of demon horns on the khrone lord, and it was tastefully done.

Being chaos is not the same as being mutant. Some chaos is mutation, but there is a big, bold world out there that is not.

In the end, what we're seeing with the new minis is a subjugation of the demonic to the mutative. We're not seeing CHAOS space marines, we're seeing MUTANT space marines. If you're big on nurgle, then you'll obviously like this, but for everyone else, as Moustaffa says, it would be great if mutations were an option, not something you had to remove from the mini if you didn't want it.

For the bolded, read the new 6th edition Codex. When the Thousand Sons first went over to Tzeentch, it basically says "the legion was wracked with mutation". The Rubric of Ahriman destroyed their mortal flesh, thus ending the ability to mutate.

You're showing how limited your thinking is. Gaining Chaos Attributes can mutate, but not always. You don't just grow horns everywhere. Those are all of the spikey, horned Marines that you're thinking of. Also, I'm about to blow your mind. Open this spoiler to see 2 Khorne Space Marines that have been given many different Chaos Attributes/Boons of Chaos.


Wow! They don't JUST have horns. Expand your mind a little bit and realize that there are different boons of Chaos outside of tentacles, horns, and spikes.
And just like I said to Moustaffa, you have to realize that being disturbing and over the top crazy is the Chaos aesthetic. If you don't like it, then don't buy those models. But that's the way the Chaos Aesthetic has been for a while, it was only just recently changed to be more kid friendly (with big SPIKES AND HORNS YAAAA) so that it would be more understandable to teenagers.

VladsImpaler, are you seriously accusing the people who play with different kinds of man-dollies of being 'immature', while you people who play with your kind of man-dollies prefer 'deep and indepth' gak? I play with your kind of dollies (horribly mutated CSM) and even I think that's stupid. Seriously, they're toys. TOYS. It's stupid to be elitist over goddamn toys.

Now, if you said, "I dislike the faction" that would be different. Like, I dislike Ultramarines. But does that mean I'm any better than the people who play as Ultramarines? No. We're still both buying overpriced man-dollies from the same company!

end rant

I like them. Lots of gaudy nonsense and twisted faces, and fangs and things like that. But. The other side of the coin is that there's nowhere to do freehand or other things. CSM have always had this problem, but now it's a little worse.

I prided myself over having a very rich and luscious main color that contrasted well with the metals. It's starting to look like there's more trim than actual armor now! Tanks are always there, and your main-line CSM still have shoulder pads and... well. Shins, I guess.

Not too concerned with the obliterators. I think we should be happy to finally have a plastic kit. You can do whatever you want with them now.

I love that mutation sprue. not all of it, but the wings and some of the clawed arms are great. Makes me want to use it to add some World Eaters Warp Talons to my army..

And if you don't like the entire sprue, you can always bitz order stuff.

Yeah, those Mutilators . . . I feel sorry for CSM players. So bad. I do think the Hell Brute looks sick though and I like the whole shift from spikey marines to flesh mixing with metal look. The Fiends and Dragon are pretty silly looking though.

I had seriously considered starting chaos as it is one of the only armies not in use by my usual playing mates.

But the model design is just all over the place and range from the cool: chosen, aspiring champion, raptors. To the ugly: standard chaos marines, bezerkers, obliterators. And the downright god awfull: hellchicken, mutilators, terminators.

The rest is just meh.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
I like them. Lots of gaudy nonsense and twisted faces, and fangs and things like that. But. The other side of the coin is that there's nowhere to do freehand or other things. CSM have always had this problem, but now it's a little worse.

I prided myself over having a very rich and luscious main color that contrasted well with the metals. It's starting to look like there's more trim than actual armor now! Tanks are always there, and your main-line CSM still have shoulder pads and... well. Shins, I guess.

Not too concerned with the obliterators. I think we should be happy to finally have a plastic kit. You can do whatever you want with them now.

But there not plastic... there finecast... if only, if only...

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
For the bolded, read the new 6th edition Codex. When the Thousand Sons first went over to Tzeentch, it basically says "the legion was wracked with mutation". The Rubric of Ahriman destroyed their mortal flesh, thus ending the ability to mutate.

...

Wow! They don't JUST have horns. Expand your mind a little bit and realize that there are different boons of Chaos outside of tentacles, horns, and spikes.
And just like I said to Moustaffa, you have to realize that being disturbing and over the top crazy is the Chaos aesthetic. If you don't like it, then don't buy those models. But that's the way the Chaos Aesthetic has been for a while, it was only just recently changed to be more kid friendly (with big SPIKES AND HORNS YAAAA) so that it would be more understandable to teenagers.

Do you really consider 6th edition CSM codex to be back to the roots of Warhammer books "not advised for non-adults" or however it was stated then? I mean I saw the artwork yesterday it's kind of nice and gentle, nothing really sick or disturbing and guess what, kind of late kids/ teenagers friendly.

 happygolucky wrote:

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
I like them. Lots of gaudy nonsense and twisted faces, and fangs and things like that. But. The other side of the coin is that there's nowhere to do freehand or other things. CSM have always had this problem, but now it's a little worse.

I prided myself over having a very rich and luscious main color that contrasted well with the metals. It's starting to look like there's more trim than actual armor now! Tanks are always there, and your main-line CSM still have shoulder pads and... well. Shins, I guess.

Not too concerned with the obliterators. I think we should be happy to finally have a plastic kit. You can do whatever you want with them now.

But there not plastic... there finecast... if only, if only...

Er... never mind. What a waste of time!

 LoneLictor wrote:
VladsImpaler, are you seriously accusing the people who play with different kinds of man-dollies of being 'immature', while you people who play with your kind of man-dollies prefer 'deep and indepth' gak? I play with your kind of dollies (horribly mutated CSM) and even I think that's stupid. Seriously, they're toys. TOYS. It's stupid to be elitist over goddamn toys.

Now, if you said, "I dislike the faction" that would be different. Like, I dislike Ultramarines. But does that mean I'm any better than the people who play as Ultramarines? No. We're still both buying overpriced man-dollies from the same company!

end rant

>Accuses me of being immature
>Uses curse words and bandies around the term "man-dollies"


you wot m8?

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
For the bolded, read the new 6th edition Codex. When the Thousand Sons first went over to Tzeentch, it basically says "the legion was wracked with mutation". The Rubric of Ahriman destroyed their mortal flesh, thus ending the ability to mutate.

...

Wow! They don't JUST have horns. Expand your mind a little bit and realize that there are different boons of Chaos outside of tentacles, horns, and spikes.
And just like I said to Moustaffa, you have to realize that being disturbing and over the top crazy is the Chaos aesthetic. If you don't like it, then don't buy those models. But that's the way the Chaos Aesthetic has been for a while, it was only just recently changed to be more kid friendly (with big SPIKES AND HORNS YAAAA) so that it would be more understandable to teenagers.

Do you really consider 6th edition CSM codex to be back to the roots of Warhammer books "not advised for non-adults" or however it was stated then? I mean I saw the artwork yesterday it's kind of nice and gentle, nothing really sick or disturbing and guess what, kind of late kids/ teenagers friendly.

And I only vaguely consider it to be moving back towards the Slaves to Darkness era, but yes for the most part it's still kid/teenager friendly and understandable. I mean that with as little "offensiveness" as possible.

OK I only wanted that cleared, GW is imo too scared about loosing potential money today to get serious with Chaos.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
OK I only wanted that cleared, GW is imo too scared about loosing potential money today to get serious with Chaos.

Haha, it's all good, I definitely agree with you on that.

Also your signature always makes me laugh! hahaha

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
OK I only wanted that cleared, GW is imo too scared about loosing potential money today to get serious with Chaos.

Haha, it's all good, I definitely agree with you on that.

And I share your opinion on what chaos should be, though I kind of like this guy:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also your signature always makes me laugh! hahaha

Happy to know. The sad part is that it's based on the actual explanations in new cinematic edition rulebook and I still can't figure out the genre of the supposed movie, British comedy if I had to guess.

Wait, the Mutilators come with those faces and failcast? Damn that's brutal.

 solkan wrote:
Afte 25 years of Chaos changing every few years, you're supposed to get used to it.

It is called Chaos for a reason...

I mostly like the new stuff. Yes the dragon and monitor lizard look stupid as hell and I won't be buying either, but the stuff from the starter set is amazing.

I have plans to make a small Tzeench warband of maybe 1000 points or so just to have some fun with. I've already assembled a possessed "Batman" Night Lord (hasn't everyone?) and a plastic demon prince for painting so why not do the rest? Between the possessed and mutation sprues I think I'll have everything to do what I need. I might trade for some chaos chapter shoudlerpads so I can get more of a warband feel than a traitor legion vibe. Looks like chaos is begin to grow.

Yep. I love the new direction. Except for the stupid flier and lizard thing. And the warp talons. The Raptors look awesome but the Talons look like garbage. Amazing how they got both reactions out of me with a single kit.

I think that if the models are painted right, they'll be beautiful. However I have to admit that I've seen better concepts for Chaos pop up here in our on Blogs... the Ctlhuhu one comes to mind.

I feel that Chaos now has a look that we can honestly say no other army has. It will be easy to pick out on the battlefield.

I liked the art in the codex personally. I thought it was some of the better work put out by GW

Zords for the Zord Throne:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
VladsImpaler, are you seriously accusing the people who play with different kinds of man-dollies of being 'immature', while you people who play with your kind of man-dollies prefer 'deep and indepth' gak? I play with your kind of dollies (horribly mutated CSM) and even I think that's stupid. Seriously, they're toys. TOYS. It's stupid to be elitist over goddamn toys.

Now, if you said, "I dislike the faction" that would be different. Like, I dislike Ultramarines. But does that mean I'm any better than the people who play as Ultramarines? No. We're still both buying overpriced man-dollies from the same company!

end rant

>Accuses me of being immature
>Uses curse words and bandies around the term "man-dollies"


you wot m8?

You're ignoring my point; being elitist over toys is, well, very stupid.

I think some of the new artwork is pretty cool.

Looks like mecha-godzilla jumped out of a lava pit onto a plane.

Yeah, it almost looks like the dragon guy is being blown up by the valkyrie and not the other way around.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
VladsImpaler, are you seriously accusing the people who play with different kinds of man-dollies of being 'immature', while you people who play with your kind of man-dollies prefer 'deep and indepth' gak? I play with your kind of dollies (horribly mutated CSM) and even I think that's stupid. Seriously, they're toys. TOYS. It's stupid to be elitist over goddamn toys.

Now, if you said, "I dislike the faction" that would be different. Like, I dislike Ultramarines. But does that mean I'm any better than the people who play as Ultramarines? No. We're still both buying overpriced man-dollies from the same company!

end rant

>Accuses me of being immature
>Uses curse words and bandies around the term "man-dollies"


you wot m8?

You're ignoring my point; being elitist over toys is, well, very stupid.

For the sake of being overly semantic, I'm being elitist over the art direction for Chaos which I don't consider to be a bad thing. Is there something wrong with wanting art that makes you actually think or conjure up other emotions than "lol dis is sewww kewwll guyz"?

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
OK I only wanted that cleared, GW is imo too scared about loosing potential money today to get serious with Chaos.

Haha, it's all good, I definitely agree with you on that.

And I share your opinion on what chaos should be, though I kind of like this guy:

I think that that is a cool photo. Not necessarily because of the stupid amount of spikes, but because of the face. That guy looks completely and utterly deranged, warped, and maniacal. He looks like a Marine that gurgles forbidden ancient rites in praise of dark, bloodthirsty gods. Not some guy who's angry because daddy ignored him.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
I think that that is a cool photo. Not necessarily because of the stupid amount of spikes, but because of the face. That guy looks completely and utterly deranged, warped, and maniacal. He looks like a Marine that gurgles forbidden ancient rites in praise of dark, bloodthirsty gods. Not some guy who's angry because daddy ignored him.

Yep I still can't say whether the spikes add to the impression or rather spoil it especialy if you start to look at them in separation

What I meant with the picture is that you can make Chaos Chaotic without everything on the guy's body and armour warped, twisted etc, that's the point about subtlety I think Ailaros made before in this thread - it might be better than evil detail overload. In fact I like both aproaches, I would love GW to make CSM sick to the point of parents leaving hobby center in disgust but the same time think that subtly warped/ crazed SM have their appeal as well, done right might serve as a contrast for the real monstrosities and visualise the gradual nature of Chaos corruption . The guy angry because daddy ignored him syndrome and spikes for the sake of spikes have to go though, full agreement on that.

 Breotan wrote:
Looks like mecha-godzilla jumped out of a lava pit onto a plane.

He may as well be playing a double necked bass while daemonettes dance around him.

I admit I like the new Chaos art direction, I love the baroque and unique visual feel. The new models however seem really unfair to chaos as a whole, if you're playing Iron Warriors you should be dancing for joy but man... there's a lot of places in the Chaos line that could use a little attention and this just isn't doing it right.

I will say I like the Heldrake even if it is a power rangers toy.