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So they clearly have made it to where whole squads of nobs, paladins, wolf guard (or w/e the SW thing is called) do not count as 'character' when comprised of a unit made up of simply those models.

My question is, is a royal court the same way? Can the members only look out sir when they are broken down and attached to other squads? If they can make a single unit and Look Out Sir, why did they limit all of those other instances?

 Jstncloud wrote:
why did they limit all of those other instances?

W2

Because the ones mentioned could be taken in units of 10 and large units rolling for LoS! is a headache.

Edit: And all the units listed except for Wolf Guard have multiple wounds.

 Tarrasq wrote:
Because the ones mentioned could be taken in units of 10 and large units rolling for LoS! is a headache.

Edit: And all the units listed except for Wolf Guard have multiple wounds.

So a royal court, with 5 lords and 5 Crpytecks, has an HQ with a 2+/3+ save join them. You are telling my that every single model there can Look Out Sir wounds to the HQ who has a 2+/3+ or to one of the Lords who have similar upgrades?

Nobs and Paladins have 2 wounds, ok cool, Wolf Guard have 1 wound, and you could have a bunch of those in Terminator/Power armor accompanied by an HQ and they cannot pull those shenanigans correct? Seems like the court(s) would have fallen under those same restrictions, guessing they are (once again) better than other codexes?

LoS transfers on the closest model now, so if you can somehow manage to have the HQ be the closest model to all of them – yes.

Yeah, they left Royal Courts and Warlocks still able to do this, but between them only having 1W, not being able to get 2+ saves or FNP (unlike some of the other units), and the change to Look Out Sir always having to be to the closest model, it's not nearly as abusable as it used to be.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yeah, they left Royal Courts and Warlocks still able to do this, but between them only having 1W, not being able to get 2+ saves or FNP (unlike some of the other units), and the change to Look Out Sir always having to be to the closest model, it's not nearly as abusable as it used to be.

5 Lords with 2+ saves means there is usually a descent chance of look out siring the wound from a fragile Cryptek to a much more resilient lord, in addition if you happen to deep strike them (with whatever cryptek ability that does it) they are all based with the center model, usually the HQ with the 2+/3+ anyways. My issue with this is not only is it a pain in the butt to hurt them, they can circus pop the wounds around and if you manage to take a model out, they have a 4+ roll to come back (ressurection orb). The reason I came to the forums about this is, a) the Wolf Guard would still be less resilient then a royal court is had they not lost the ability to move wounds around, even if they allocate to the nearest model, yet they lost it. and b) I played a 6 turn game the other day and spent 4 turns firing at a royal court that was in the middle of my deployment/models and by the end of the game it was missing 2/9 models. LOS, Reanimation Protocols, and Cronometron, ensured that his stuff was nearly godlike.

That is tough; I forgot that Lords have access to Sempternal Weave. However it is also 420 points minimum, assuming only free harbingers, and no Warscythes or other upgrades; just the Chrono, 5 Weaves, and the Res Orb.

To answer why, I feel you have to consider the LOS rule change.

They changed completely a rule in a newly printed rulebook, DV was only a couple of days old(yes, it had been printed some time ago I realise).
They only thing that changed is we got to play it and everyone started abusing the rule.

You have to consider the character change in the same light. Nob bikers were amazing, wolf guard(though maybe they were never meant to be) were very reasonable and paladins were usable.
So they changed it as it was too powerful.
It is harder to abuse the necron unit.

Second guess would be fluff reasons. As the necron guys are probably more likely to act as 'characters'

Third guess, again seeing as they have made awful attempts at FAQs the first time around, has to be they missed it. They very well may remove it in the next round of FAQs.

But to answer the other question, no, they are still characters. Precision shots and LOS and all.

If you ever come across ork bikers with a nob leader, officially the nob is infantry not a bike. He will only move 6'' per turn

 Mannahnin wrote:
That is tough; I forgot that Lords have access to Sempternal Weave. However it is also 420 points minimum, assuming only free harbingers, and no Warscythes or other upgrades; just the Chrono, 5 Weaves, and the Res Orb.

And it took the majority of my forces to eliminate 2 models over 4 turns, and I took massive casualties doing so. By turn 5 I just ran away and shot other stuff because they were nearly unkillable. Without the LOS crap I'd of had a much more 'realistic' time playing against the mess.

I wanted to clarify because the justification for nerfing, everyone (except Necrons it seems) made sense, the overall idea was to prevent wound bouncing and prolonged unit sustainability that it is not intended to have. However the exact reason for the nerf can still be seen going on with Necrons, why are they allowed to do it when weaker units that got less of a benefit from doing it are prevented from doing so? I know GW typically displays minimal logic at best, but lets be realistic, when a royal court alone can stand toe to toe with 50-60% of my total force, at one time, AND take minimal casualties, what the heck is the point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MFletch wrote:
To answer why, I feel you have to consider the LOS rule change.

They changed completely a rule in a newly printed rulebook, DV was only a couple of days old(yes, it had been printed some time ago I realise).
They only thing that changed is we got to play it and everyone started abusing the rule.

You have to consider the character change in the same light. Nob bikers were amazing, wolf guard(though maybe they were never meant to be) were very reasonable and paladins were usable.
So they changed it as it was too powerful.
It is harder to abuse the necron unit.

Second guess would be fluff reasons. As the necron guys are probably more likely to act as 'characters'

Third guess, again seeing as they have made awful attempts at FAQs the first time around, has to be they missed it. They very well may remove it in the next round of FAQs.

But to answer the other question, no, they are still characters. Precision shots and LOS and all.

If you ever come across ork bikers with a nob leader, officially the nob is infantry not a bike. He will only move 6'' per turn

I get Paladins and Nobs, but royal courts are 1 wound models, so are wolf guard. Royal courts are 'easier' to make 'tanky' (2+ armor save models). Wolf Guard can only do this with terminators, and even then they are 1 wound models so LOS makes little since. Necrons can 'Okay Corral' a circle of alternating Crypteks and Lords along with an HQ in the center to be able to LOS just about any shot from the weak (4+ save) Crypteks, to the strong (2+ save) lords/HQ.

I understand armies having a niche, but danggit I am sick of playing against my friends Necrons and every time I open up and give the game a shot I find another reason to continue refusing to play against him, and the sad thing is he isn't even using flyer spam yet. Against the best of lists they are still incredibly hard to fight and churning a vat of cheese is super easy for them.

MFletch wrote:
If you ever come across ork bikers with a nob leader, officially the nob is infantry not a bike. He will only move 6'' per turn

Um no he has wargear "Warbike" and the codex explains what that does quite clearly.

As someone already mentioned, I believe it is just an oversight since it doesn't fit with the fluff. Necron Lords tend to dislike Cryteks that get to a high station so I very much doubt they would look to protect them.

Of course, there is a way he can achieve roughly the same effect without needing Look Out Sir rolls and that is just to indent the Crytek's slightly so that a Lord is always taking a hit.

They almost need to give each army a chain of command:
Overlord<-Lord<-Crytek<-Everyone else

Jstncloud, what army are you using? The grins are strong but not unbeatable, won a couple of games against them this weekend just gone with my DE.

Drager wrote:
Jstncloud, what army are you using? The grins are strong but not unbeatable, won a couple of games against them this weekend just gone with my DE.

Mechanized Blood Angels and Imperial Guard, my Imperial Guard would probably ROFLSTOMP the Necrons 9/10 games if I wanted to spam all 6 of my Valkyries-every time I played- which I don't want to do that (might encourage him to rush purchasing Necron flyers).

The Blood Angels were good, 5th ed, but with the new Hull Point system my vehicles pretty much crumble under the weight of Necron Rapid Fire. I also run codex Marines, specifically utilizing Dreadnoughts, they too are pretty fragile.

I'd like to add that against just about every codex I've played against, 6th ed seems balanced, but Necrons are so powerful. Final note, if the guy isn't running Necrons he is running Orks and I have to deal with loads of lootah/burnah spam.

 HoverBoy wrote:

MFletch wrote:
If you ever come across ork bikers with a nob leader, officially the nob is infantry not a bike. He will only move 6'' per turn

Um no he has wargear "Warbike" and the codex explains what that does quite clearly.

So he is a bike not a bike(character), just following what it clear states to do.
Else how do you know the order, I have nob biker leader.
Look at the profile so bike, check the wargear so now becomes a bike, then as on the battlefield he is a leader I follow the design note so now becomes infantry(character).

All I am saying is that is not clear. It is clearer than it has been but to say it is quite clearly explained is not true, by GW standards it is clear I suppose.

Do Necrons still phase out? That was always my way around such problems. Ignore the deathstar and kill the rest of the army around it. How fast does the royal court move?

They dont phase out anymore, but the point is the same. Tie up the Deathstar then kill the rest. Necrons really aren't that bad, they just have alot of versatility.

The royal court is supposed to be tough. They're also expensive. When I pointed it out for myself it was over 1000 points.

Fragile wrote:
They dont phase out anymore, but the point is the same. Tie up the Deathstar then kill the rest. Necrons really aren't that bad, they just have alot of versatility.

If you don't have a 'good' tie up unit you are just feeding them kills (In Purge the Xenos) or feeding them your units. The Royal court may swing at initiative 2 but the weapons they have are nothing to shun.

The reason necrons can do this is because look out sir can be taken by any character.

In the necron codex, crypteks and lords are clearly defined as characters.

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
The reason necrons can do this is because look out sir can be taken by any character.

In the necron codex, crypteks and lords are clearly defined as characters.

Thanks for the information we already know? The point is that Nobs, Paladins, and Wolf Guard were defined as characters too, and GW took that away 'to prevent the wound allocation circus that we had in 5th and that the LOS allowed to exist in 6th.' However Necrons can still do this. "Well they are 1 wound models, so it isn't that big of a deal" well Wolf Guard models are 1 wound models and they don't have access to the plethora of gears and upgrades that the Court does, so who does LOS benefit more, Wolf Guard who lost it or Necrons who can still do it?

Exactly...

 Jstncloud wrote:

Fragile wrote:
They dont phase out anymore, but the point is the same. Tie up the Deathstar then kill the rest. Necrons really aren't that bad, they just have alot of versatility.

If you don't have a 'good' tie up unit you are just feeding them kills (In Purge the Xenos) or feeding them your units. The Royal court may swing at initiative 2 but the weapons they have are nothing to shun.

You should have a unit to tie them up. If you don't they will eat a unit you dont want them to. Plan accordingly.

 Jstncloud wrote:

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
The reason necrons can do this is because look out sir can be taken by any character.

In the necron codex, crypteks and lords are clearly defined as characters.

Thanks for the information we already know? The point is that Nobs, Paladins, and Wolf Guard were defined as characters too, and GW took that away 'to prevent the wound allocation circus that we had in 5th and that the LOS allowed to exist in 6th.' However Necrons can still do this. "Well they are 1 wound models, so it isn't that big of a deal" well Wolf Guard models are 1 wound models and they don't have access to the plethora of gears and upgrades that the Court does, so who does LOS benefit more, Wolf Guard who lost it or Necrons who can still do it?

Exactly...

Don't forget the over-powered Warlocks. They are all characters as well.

 Jstncloud wrote:

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
The reason necrons can do this is because look out sir can be taken by any character.

In the necron codex, crypteks and lords are clearly defined as characters.

Thanks for the information we already know? The point is that Nobs, Paladins, and Wolf Guard were defined as characters too, and GW took that away 'to prevent the wound allocation circus that we had in 5th and that the LOS allowed to exist in 6th.' However Necrons can still do this. "Well they are 1 wound models, so it isn't that big of a deal" well Wolf Guard models are 1 wound models and they don't have access to the plethora of gears and upgrades that the Court does, so who does LOS benefit more, Wolf Guard who lost it or Necrons who can still do it?

Exactly...

Well, since you want to be rude...

Read your rules again. Wolf guard are not characters unless they are allocated to another squad. Nobs are not characters unless they are leading a unit of boys. That answer your questions?

Unless you can point me to where it specifically says wolf guard and nob squads are characters, thanks for being wrong.

You're still missing the point. Prior to the FAQ they were characters.

 Spectral Dragon wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
The reason necrons can do this is because look out sir can be taken by any character.

In the necron codex, crypteks and lords are clearly defined as characters.

Thanks for the information we already know? The point is that Nobs, Paladins, and Wolf Guard were defined as characters too, and GW took that away 'to prevent the wound allocation circus that we had in 5th and that the LOS allowed to exist in 6th.' However Necrons can still do this. "Well they are 1 wound models, so it isn't that big of a deal" well Wolf Guard models are 1 wound models and they don't have access to the plethora of gears and upgrades that the Court does, so who does LOS benefit more, Wolf Guard who lost it or Necrons who can still do it?

Exactly...

Well, since you want to be rude...

Read your rules again. Wolf guard are not characters unless they are allocated to another squad. Nobs are not characters unless they are leading a unit of boys. That answer your questions?

Unless you can point me to where it specifically says wolf guard and nob squads are characters, thanks for being wrong.

Feel free to actually 'read' my posts, rather than jump the gun. As I said those characters 'lost it.' My concern was that Necrons seemed to have been over looked.

 Ghaz wrote:
You're still missing the point. Prior to the FAQ they were characters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
The reason necrons can do this is because look out sir can be taken by any character.

In the necron codex, crypteks and lords are clearly defined as characters.

Thanks for the information we already know? The point is that Nobs, Paladins, and Wolf Guard were defined as characters too, and GW took that away 'to prevent the wound allocation circus that we had in 5th and that the LOS allowed to exist in 6th.' However Necrons can still do this. "Well they are 1 wound models, so it isn't that big of a deal" well Wolf Guard models are 1 wound models and they don't have access to the plethora of gears and upgrades that the Court does, so who does LOS benefit more, Wolf Guard who lost it or Necrons who can still do it?

Exactly...

Don't forget the over-powered Warlocks. They are all characters as well.

We don't have an active Eldar Player here, so I had no idea that they were still able to do this, however, are they as powerful as the Royal Courts are? Being able to bounce wounds to a 2+ character, with a 4+ to come back, and if all else fails, to LOS it to the HQ if need be who has a 2+/3+ just seems ridiculous. Even with the 'nearest' model clause they added for LOS, if you stagger the models correctly you can pretty much bounce the wound where you'd prefer. As I stated earlier in the thread I spent 4 turns blasting into the Royal court and by the end of the game had only managed to take out 2 of the 9 models (8 Royal Court, 1 HQ).

Well, add a farseer for fortune, give one of the warlocks conceal for a cover save, throw in Karandras for stealth and add an archon with a shadowshield for a 2+ invuln save...

Better yet, replace the warlocks with wraithguard. While not characters, they are T6.

Oh, and with a Spiritseer, they are a troop choice.

Happyjew wrote:
Well, add a farseer for fortune, give one of the warlocks conceal for a cover save, throw in Karandras for stealth and add an archon with a shadowshield for a 2+ invuln save...

Better yet, replace the warlocks with wraithguard. While not characters, they are T6.

Oh, and with a Spiritseer, they are a troop choice.

You cannot complain about stats, that is not the problem, the problem is taking those stats and also having LOS. Wraithguard will still fall, they cannot just bounce wounds around, pass/fail saves, and then have a 50% chance to come back and do the mess all over again.

As for Eldar, again, using psychic powers/abilities is not the concern, the issue is being able to have a beefy squad who can (in addition to their powers) hop-scotch wounds all over the place. If, for example, you take out the farseer with fortune, you have dealt a pretty strong blow to the Eldar unit, however trying to take out specific units in the Necron Royal court only to have the wounds hop scotched around is ridiculous. If the guy running the court is not mindful, it isn't 'as' bad, but when you create a circle around your HQ and every model is within 1" of the HQ or a Lord you can pretty much all but ensure models you don't want to lose, are not lost, and if you lose them, "Hey 4+ they come back."

Again, 4 turns 800pts of models firing at a Royal Court and by turn 5 I have only managed to take 2 out of the unit down and keep them down. And this is with using a variety of AP:2 weapons and Str: 5 shots, AP:2 was typically LOS'd to the HQ (3+ invulnerability), and the Str:5 shots/the Quadgun were all LOS'd to lords (2+ armor saves). When LOS were failed, the weaker models still had armor saves (most of the time) and if they failed, they just came back.

Anyways, point of the thread was addressed (Necrons 'can' indeed, at least for the time being, abuse LOS). I am fine continuing to debate/socialize about the topic but the main point of the thread has certainly been answered.

Thanks everyone.

You answered it partly in your own post. A royal court isn't comprised of just 1 unit.

The others lose character status when grouped in units comprised wholly of their own models. Royal court is comprised of two model types plus HQ.

Also you're looking at the royal court totally backwards. The RC isn't a unit the HQ can join. Its a HQ that can join other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol at "abuse" Los.

You sound like a kid who can't get his way.

Don't be rude. It's really not necessary, and it's a violation of the Dakka site rules.

It's a tricky thing to deal with, and obviously he's having to adapt to the new edition. Sounds like most of the other armies in his group hadn't been made much better or worse, so he hasn't had to adapt much yet, and this is throwing him.

That being said, the idea of a nigh-unkillable, expensive "Deathstar" unit is not new, and is so well known that everyone knows the nickname. The tactics for dealing with such a unit have not changed in the last four editions.

A) Either hit it with another, powerful Deathstar.
B) Find a shooting solution which somehow negates its advantages (like AP2 blasts, in this case).
C) Avoid the sucker and win on the mission while killing his other stuff.

The OP wanted to confirm that this unit is indeed this tough under the current rules. And it is so.