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I think they could have made Flayed Ones viable by making any ONE of these simple changes, which makes me believe they meant to do one of these things, but somehow forgot. Maybe they had a yellow sticky note on that page in the draft, and it fell out or something.

1. Flayed Ones are Fearless.

2. Flayed Ones are Troops. (Or even, Flayed Ones are troops if you take Immotek. Or even a Destroyer Lord or something.)

3. Flayed Ones can assault the turn they Deep Strike.

4. Flayed Ones have AP3 weapons.

5. Flayed Ones have Rending (meh.)

6. Flayed Ones cost 2 points less per model.

Just one of those things, I would use flayed ones. I really would.

Or they could have given them special rules with the 6th Edition FAQ like Fear(which they had in the 3rd edition book. I think it also would have made sense to have given them Entropic strike, which is basically the 5th edition version of Disruption fields, something both Scarabs and Flayed Ones used in the 3rd edition book.

If Flayed ones had Zealot, they would be perfect.

Or simply Preferred Enemy (Everything!) like the destroyers. That would have helped a ton too. Ah well. I might try being really tricky with the Blood Swarm rule for Immotek and run 3 5man squads to disrupt the backfield if I can. Seems like having 5 MEQ bodies show up unnannounced here or there could make the game go poorly for some armies. I dunno.

 Brymm wrote:
Or simply Preferred Enemy (Everything!) like the destroyers. That would have helped a ton too. Ah well. I might try being really tricky with the Blood Swarm rule for Immotek and run 3 5man squads to disrupt the backfield if I can. Seems like having 5 MEQ bodies show up unnannounced here or there could make the game go poorly for some armies. I dunno.

Well, the Preferred enemy would only help for 1's in Close combat, since they have no shooting. Zealot gives them rerolls to all missed close combat attacks in the first round, and Fearless.

Flayed ones really aren't a MEQ either, since they don't have a 3+ save.

Zealot, while fitting the needed mechanics perfectly, wouldn't make sense from a fluff perspective.
Just looking at them, though, the best fits would have been either:
-Fearless (because they're crazy)
-Fear (they're covered in blood and skin... that's a little unnerving)
-Rending (giant knives for fingers, duh)

Assaulting after deep striking would be great, but there's no way in hell GW would give them something THAT good.

Available as troop choice with Imotekh would have made sense, too.

I guess GW has just decided they don't want people buying/using Flayed Ones anymore... why else would they make them expensive, ugly, and give them gakky rules?

I suppose I'll chime in with the FO talk a bit. I really need setup a FO blog so I can just link to the talking points when this discussion comes up .

I've used a large group of Flayed Ones (15 to 20) in the my main army since the new dex dropped, and have had 20 metals since the old Dex dropped. I completely empathize with the disdain for the newer, expensive, FC models, however I love the metals, FWIW.

Anyway, needless to say in a year and 3 months I've seen them go up against just about anything, and outside of deathstars their is a very short list of units actually taken regularly in this game that wants to tangle with a large group of Flayed Ones in CC especially if you have a DLord around.

The number one role I think they play better then anything in the codex is area denial. The reason I think they shine in this role is they are resilient, can handle themselves in CC, can threaten most things in the game, and can be deployed virtually anywhere you need them most. Also, you can get a large squad for a relatively cheap (points wise), 195 to 260 (compared to say, LG, which can quickly jump into the 400 point range). Punisher mentioned Warriors, however Warriors, even a large squad, can be taken out by a stiff breeze in CC, unless you've invested in a bunch of points in Phaeron and CC RC/Overlord/etc. Also, you'll have to drop another 100+ to get the Warriors out of your deployment zone in any expedited fashion. Now, Warriors can score, but FOs can deny. It would be nice if they could score, sure, but I really think people make out way to big of a deal with this. I've seen very successful Necron lists who the extent of their scoring was 4x5 Warriors and that's it. As long as your scoring needs are taken care of elsewhere, it just seems like a non issue for me.

FOs take their transport with them, so to speak. The most common opponents of FOs I have noticed are people who never use Infiltrate, DS, or Outflank to begin with. If you're not comfortable with those mechanics, and finding ways to exploit your enemy's weaknesses using those mechanics, then you'll understandably be disappointed in the FOs as a decent chunk of their point cost goes to their deployment options. Basically, when using them, you find the weakest (relative to your opponent) spot on the board, and you deploy them their and either let your opponent come to you or have them sacrifice a large piece of tactical real estate.

Of course their other roles is a disruption unit to send after HS. I've seen many use a small group for this task. You can also use them defensively to screen Warriors/Immortals against CC, although I only do that if the opponent has a rather dedicated to CC army.

A couple of things people tend to overlook/not consider until they've seen them in action quit a few times:

1.) BSS (from Imo) will effect your opponents deployment even when you have no intention of using them as such. I've seen opponents make all sorts of silly errors trying to protect/minimize the effects of BSS.

2.) They aren't fearless (which is definitely their Achilles, no argument there) , but they do have LD 10. Against shooting that tends to be all you need. And really, in a large squad, against assaults its generally all you need as well. A group of 20 FOs could lose 5 models against a MEQ opponent, will strike back and kill about 4, and then have to pass a 9 or under to not break (83.3%). Of course if the DLord is there you have a greater margin of error to deal with.

3.) Point for point, provided they don't break after the first round, FOs will kill TH/SS termies. Most of the Crons CC options aren't particular great against TH/SS, FOs actually are, winning about 70% of the time, and when they do win (ie, didn't break) they generally win big (only losing a few bases).

4.) They're a little faster then people think, because of the mechanics of RP. This has been reduced a bit because of the closest to closest mechanics of 6th edition, but still will regularly by you an inch or so which can really throw off your opponent if they aren't thinking about it.

5.) Be a non conformist and buck the interweb hive mind!

6.) They crush transports in CC. You need about 7 bases to kill any AV10 rear vehicle (on average), 10 for a multi-assault.

7.) If you have a small squad, or a squad that has been whittled down, don't be afraid to throw them at a shooting based Naught. They won't hurt it, but they will lock it down, and it won't hurt them either (your typical shooty dread averages about half a FO base/turn in CC).

A small note on DLord tactics. My list includes a full squad of Wraiths, TPs, FOs, and a brick of Warriors with Imo. When I say FOs+Dlord, it is just one of the many options the DLord has available to him. I mentioned this earlier, but generally I deploy him with the TPs as his initial escort, but he (and his crew) does get shot at, and is commonly looking to pick up new running mates around turn 3 or 4. That's why I love having a DLord with a rezzy, as I have 3 units they suddenly become much stronger when he's around, leaving me the flexibility to move him to the one that is in best position to make a difference in any given round (plus the Wraiths of course, although they don't get no Rezzy love).

You disregard the fact that including a D. lord attached to the squad takes away half of their deployment option and the other 1 quarter(DS) is nerfed by the size and cost of the squad, if it mishaps you lose. Also, Outflanking them or DS them puts them out of the game for a minimum of 2 turns(barring Phased reinforcements), in which you can get shot at before landing a single attack, and generally in range of allot of enemy weapons, or enemy charge range. 6th edition neutered their one use which was a lucky outflank charge. They are now the most useless turn three unit in the game. An Obyron Imotekh combo can make the squad better but not by much and the cost is unsupportable.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You disregard the fact that including a D. lord attached to the squad takes away half of their deployment option and the other 1 quarter(DS) is nerfed by the size and cost of the squad, if it mishaps you lose.

Um..."generally I deploy him [the DLord] with the TPs as his initial escort," so... >?<

Also, Outflanking them or DS them puts them out of the game for a minimum of 2 turns(barring Phased reinforcements),

If their primary role in a mission is to take away an objective, the fewer turns they can be shot at, the better. So really, this isn't a negative at all.

in which you can get shot at before landing a single attack, and generally in range of allot of enemy weapons, or enemy charge range.

Please tell me a way you can deploy any CC unit in the entire game where it can't get shot at first (except for Heroic Intervention of course). Every unit can get shot at at any time, regardless of how you deploy them (barring LOS). If you deploy a CC unit in your deployment zone, it can get shot at. If you DS it, it can get shot at. If you Infiltrate it, it can get shot at. Outflanking too. DSing/Outflanking in respect to getting shot at only serves to minimize how many turns they will be shot at. Seriously, it baffles me that people don't understand such a basic concept.

6th edition neutered their one use which was a lucky outflank charge.

You mean they lost their ability to DS/Infilitrate all of a sudden? Damn, missed that FAQ.

They are now the most useless turn three unit in the game. An Obyron Imotekh combo can make the squad better but not by much and the cost is unsupportable.

Way to ignore every point and go straight for the unsubstantiated superlative. /sigh.

I think there's not a bad unit in the necron codex as flayed ones have a complete lack of shiny model syndrome so they are either going to be ignored, which means they get to sow chaos in your enemies back lines by killing heavy support squads like long fangs, broadsides, lootas, ig heavy weapon teams etc...

Which means all your shiny models get to live because ether are not obliterated by heavy weapons. OR on the reverse your opponent tries to kill a blob of in cover ( you best put them in cover with the resurgence of HBs) which with RP is going to take awhile. They may get assaulted oh noes one might say but if they stay they are going to do a lot more damage then a warrior blob in assault. If they die oh well you took a chunk of your opponents army and stalled it for a turn. This still gives you precious time to get your heavy hitters where they need to be and kill the big guns.

From what I see use them just as they do in the fluff, they are a distraction for the enemy nothing more nothing less. Make them cheap but keep their numbers up and hope they take away an advantage your enemy has. And infiltrate them to avoid the risk of those pesky mishaps

Also as a side note, the models, to be frank and to the point, god awful. I'm going to kit bash them to look like necron pirates to add to my legion of doom.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You disregard the fact that including a D. lord attached to the squad takes away half of their deployment option and the other 1 quarter(DS) is nerfed by the size and cost of the squad, if it mishaps you lose.

Um..."generally I deploy him [the DLord] with the TPs as his initial escort," so... >?<

Also, Outflanking them or DS them puts them out of the game for a minimum of 2 turns(barring Phased reinforcements),

If their primary role in a mission is to take away an objective, the fewer turns they can be shot at, the better. So really, this isn't a negative at all.

in which you can get shot at before landing a single attack, and generally in range of allot of enemy weapons, or enemy charge range.

Please tell me a way you can deploy any CC unit in the entire game where it can't get shot at first (except for Heroic Intervention of course). Every unit can get shot at at any time, regardless of how you deploy them (barring LOS). If you deploy a CC unit in your deployment zone, it can get shot at. If you DS it, it can get shot at. If you Infiltrate it, it can get shot at. Outflanking too. DSing/Outflanking in respect to getting shot at only serves to minimize how many turns they will be shot at. Seriously, it baffles me that people don't understand such a basic concept.

6th edition neutered their one use which was a lucky outflank charge.

You mean they lost their ability to DS/Infilitrate all of a sudden? Damn, missed that FAQ.

They are now the most useless turn three unit in the game. An Obyron Imotekh combo can make the squad better but not by much and the cost is unsupportable.

Way to ignore every point and go straight for the unsubstantiated superlative. /sigh.

And everything you have suggested, a identical sized squad of Warriors could do better, used ranged weaponry, and are scoring. DS warriors, they can shot. Escort D. Lord, they can advance and shot and have preferred enemy, you can even tak on a Pheaeron lord so they can assault afterward. Why DS Flayed Ones and a D. Lord when you can load 13 in a Night Scythe with him and it would be cheaper than 20 Failed Ones. There is really only a few situations that Warriors aren't on par with the Flayed Ones, at worst. It must be their base 2 attacks and lack of ranged weapons that seal the deal for you.

And everything you have suggested, a identical sized squad of Warriors could do better, used ranged weaponry, and are scoring. DS warriors, they can shot. Escort D. Lord, they can advance and shot and have preferred enemy, you can even tak on a Pheaeron lord so they can assault afterward. Why DS Flayed Ones and a D. Lord when you can load 13 in a Night Scythe with him and it would be cheaper than 20 Failed Ones. There is really only a few situations that Warriors aren't on par with the Flayed Ones, at worst. It must be their base 2 attacks and lack of ranged weapons that seal the deal for you.

text removed.
Reds8n

... @ShadarLogoth, did you ever post the battle reports people had been asking for when you first started trying to defend Flayed Ones?
I think people might be a little more willing to accept your claims if they could see evidence of FO in action (so to speak).

Frankly, of the times I've seen them used, nothing stood out to me about them that I couldn't see another unit pulling off better...

Whoops, I guess I was being a little to flippant, got Mod smacked.

Flayed Ones have 3 attacks, and don't require additional investment to get them anywhere. If you stick Warriors in your opponents face they will die quite quickly in CC. Flayed Ones, baring bad die rolls, not so much.


@Skoffs You're probably right, I've simply haven't had the time or inclination. I have had several people tell me they took my advice and after a few games generally agree with my sentiment though. In the end, personal experience is the only thing that is going to sway most people.

Additional attacks do not make FO more resilent in battle, I don't see where this comes from....they got more attacks, but Warriors have Rapid Fire weapons that allow them to get more losses before the fight, sometimes even stopping the entire assault at once.

Mathhammer.

10 FO have 30 attacks. 4+ to hit vs. MEQ, thus 15 hits. 4+ to wound, thus 7.5 wounds. MEQ got a 3+ thus 2.5 actual losses. In a vacuum. Realistically, you will need 15-20 FO in a squad. They will be shot at for at least one turn thus lose out on a few members. Let's be generous and say that 5 of them die, plus 1-2 due to Overwatch. A squad of 20 FO will now be reduced to 13 FO already. In cc, the enemy gets to strike first. tac got 10 attacks each, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 losses, thus about 12 FO will strike back and cause ~3 losses. They will win combat, yet not achieve anything due to ATSKNF. They will mostly spend the rest of the game hunting a squad of tac...and I don't really see the value here.

The thing is: why would I want to take FO? Every pick is supposed to fit a certain role and FO do not seem to fill any of those I can think of. Quickly deny stuff? Wraiths / skimmers. CC power? Wraiths. Tarpit? Scarabs.

Do not compare FO, a cc troop, to Warriors.

Additional attacks do not make FO more resilent in battle, I don't see where this comes from....they got more attacks, but Warriors have Rapid Fire weapons that allow them to get more losses before the fight, sometimes even stopping the entire assault at once.

Really? The more damage you do in CC, the less chance you have of getting rolled in CC. Plus, you do damage in CC, instead of whirling your Gauss Flayer around.

Let's be generous and say that 5 of them die, plus 1-2 due to Overwatch.

Be generous? That's ~45 Bolter shots into the Flayed Ones. So unless your standing in rapid fire range (and begging to be assaulted) that's 45 Tactical Marines you just poored into one unit. There is a hole lot of opportunity costs there. For the record, it takes a lot more firepower/point to kill FOs then it does Wraiths or TPs, so any shots pored into them are basically free cheap wounds for your harder hitters.

And a 10 man Tac squad averages .83 to .94 dead, not 1 to 2 (to Overwatch).

Oh, and how come the Tactical squad's friends get to shoot at the FOs but the FOs friends are just leaving them out to dry?

A squad of 20 FO will now be reduced to 13 FO already . In cc, the enemy gets to strike first. tac got 10 attacks each, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 losses, thus about 12 FO will strike back and cause ~3 losses. They will win combat, yet not achieve anything due to ATSKNF. They will mostly spend the rest of the game hunting a squad of tac...and I don't really see the value here.

Again, not likely, without over committing to the FOs (and not killing the Wraiths/TPs/etc). You way overestimated the Overwatch, and then robbed the Flayed Ones of their extra attack for charging?

It's more like 14 FOs make it into combat (assuming you do pore enough shots in them to kill 5, and the Necron army shoots nothing at your Tacs), they lose 1.25, then swing with 52(1÷2)(1÷2)(1÷3)=4.33. Now you've got 6 on 13(+RP), and the Tacs will be dead by the Necrons next CC phase. So you'll lose maybe 3 FOs to kill 10 Tac Marines. 39 points to kill 150 to 200 points. Seems like a good trade to me.

The thing is: why would I want to take FO? Every pick is supposed to fit a certain role and FO do not seem to fill any of those I can think of. Quickly deny stuff? Wraiths / skimmers. CC power? Wraiths. Tarpit? Scarabs.

They're a big, resilient, area denial unit that can handle itself in CC. The only thing comparable (in terms of this role) are Scarabs, which aren't as resilient, can't DS, Infiltrate or Outflank, and come from a crammed FA slot.

Do not compare FO, a cc troop, to Warriors.

I tend to agree, though they cost the same so people will make the natural juxtaposition.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Additional attacks do not make FO more resilent in battle, I don't see where this comes from....they got more attacks, but Warriors have Rapid Fire weapons that allow them to get more losses before the fight, sometimes even stopping the entire assault at once.

Really? The more damage you do in CC, the less chance you have of getting rolled in CC. Plus, you do damage in CC, instead of whirling your Gauss Flayer around.

Uhm, "whirling your Gauss Flayer around" means 20-40 S4 shots in the enemy's face, not counting Overwatch.

Let's be generous and say that 5 of them die, plus 1-2 due to Overwatch.

Be generous? That's ~45 Bolter shots into the Flayed Ones. So unless your standing in rapid fire range (and begging to be assaulted) that's 45 Tactical Marines you just poored into one unit. There is a hole lot of opportunity costs there. For the record, it takes a lot more firepower/point to kill FOs then it does Wraiths or TPs, so any shots pored into them are basically free cheap wounds for your harder hitters.

I averaged it. Let them get shot by template weapons and they'll fall like flies whereas vs. weak bolters, they are more resilant.

And a 10 man Tac squad averages .83 to .94 dead, not 1 to 2 (to Overwatch).

Oh, and how come the Tactical squad's friends get to shoot at the FOs but the FOs friends are just leaving them out to dry?

FO are right into the enemy's troops, Necrons have 24'' effective range. That's why.

Again, not likely, without over committing to the FOs (and not killing the Wraiths/TPs/etc). You way overestimated the Overwatch, and then robbed the Flayed Ones of their extra attack for charging?

I gave neither side the bonus attacks for charging because they could be charged themselves just as well.

It's more like 14 FOs make it into combat (assuming you do pore enough shots in them to kill 5, and the Necron army shoots nothing at your Tacs), they lose 1.25, then swing with 52(1÷2)(1÷2)(1÷3)=4.33. Now you've got 6 on 13(+RP), and the Tacs will be dead by the Necrons next CC phase. So you'll lose maybe 3 FOs to kill 10 Tac Marines. 39 points to kill 150 to 200 points. Seems like a good trade to me.

You spent 20x13 = 260 points for a cc unit to kill a 150 enemy non-cc unit in 3 turns. I do not see how this is an effective use of points. I also did not calculate the power weapon seargant in.

They're a big, resilient, area denial unit that can handle itself in CC. The only thing comparable (in terms of this role) are Scarabs, which aren't as resilient, can't DS, Infiltrate or Outflank, and come from a crammed FA slot.

I'm trying to fit them into an actual game in my mind. I cannot recall any situation where I would have actually needed them. FO are completely useless vs. IG, they are weak vs. GK and are completely useless vs. DoC. That's a huge part of the current meta.

I dunno, man.
When it comes to the Elite slot, I'm pretty good with Deathmarks.

So 20 Flayed ones would be 260 points, right?
Well, for that price, I could get a squad of 5 Deathmarks, stick them in a Nightscythe, and attach a couple of Despair-teks (or one Despair-tek and 7 Deathmarks in the NS, or 10 Deathmarks and a Despair-tek equipped with a Veil)

Area denial anywhere on the board? Check.
Can take out Termies? Very check.
They only thing they can't handle on their own is vehicles... unless, of course, you attach a Storm-tek or a Destroyer Lord.
(you wanna talk about where a Destroyer Lord shines? How about giving a unit that wounds on a 2+ the ability to reroll its 1s!)

Yes, it means having to run one or two Overlord level HQ to unlock the Court(s), but in my experience, it has been VERY worth it.
(the worst thing about a D&D squad for your opponent is, as soon as that thing hits the table, there's nothing he can do to prevent one of his units being devastated... and sometime I run two or three. those looks on their faces. mmm, so delicious)

Uhm, "whirling your Gauss Flayer around" means 20-40 S4 shots in the enemy's face, not counting Overwatch.

That's not going to save them once they are in Base to Base, ie, in CC.

I averaged it. Let them get shot by template weapons and they'll fall like flies whereas vs. weak bolters, they are more resilant.

Averaged it? You way overestimated it. Flamers aren't going to change much unless its a whole squad of them. The bog standard Tac squad has bolters and plasma/melta/missle or laz.

FO are right into the enemy's troops, Necrons have 24'' effective range. That's why.

Sillyness. You're going to bring everything to bear at the same time. Plus, the FOs might not ever show up till turn 2 or 3 when the rest of the army is right on the enemies door step.

I gave neither side the bonus attacks for charging because they could be charged themselves just as well.

What? Then where did the Overwatch shots come from? And Tactical Marines are charging FOs now? You're example was simply unrealistic.

You spent 20x13 = 260 points for a cc unit to kill a 150 enemy non-cc unit in 3 turns. I do not see how this is an effective use of points. I also did not calculate the power weapon seargant in.

In your example, 65 points ate bullets (efficiently saving them from juicier targets), 39 points ate CC to take out 150+ tacticals, leaving the FOs very much in tact (13+ strong), very much still a player in the final turns, and very much still denying objectives. That's how its an effective use of points.

I'm trying to fit them into an actual game in my mind. I cannot recall any situation where I would have actually needed them.

I can't recall a situation where I've ever needed any unit in the entire game. Except troops I guess.

FO are completely useless vs. IG, they are weak vs. GK and are completely useless vs. DoC.

What? Why? FOs eat IG up, whether it's popping Chims or slaying vets. They also are very capable against most GK except Purifiers. How can you make definitive statements like that when you've obviously never seen them fight?



Skoffs: D&D is quite deadly, no question. The big difference here is I'm getting 20 bodies with the FOs where you're getting 8 with D&D (plus the NS). My area denial will be much harder to dislodge. D&D is made for a quick hitting punch, FOs are made for longevity. Ask the ladies which concept they like better ? Seriously though, just two different ways to skin a cat.

I think in order to move this along another direction, why can't we see that there are merits to Flayed Ones? If you prefer something else, then go on and keep prefering it. This is a tactics thread, and a poster is posting valid tactics on how to use Flayed Ones. Some posters think that Units A, B, and C do better, well great, that's tactics. Stacking a mathhammer battle in your favor does nothing to advance the arguments.
Are we running into competition in the Force Org that would make them invalid? What are we gaining by using them? What are we sacrificing? If we cover those bases, someone coming on to read this thread can make an informed choice on what to use in his/her army. If they try the Flayed Ones and get totally beaten down, then shucks, they didn't work out for them. If they use them and it does work out, then AWESOME!, it worked out, and I'm sure they'll get online and come post it up on here.
Eitherway, lets stay friends!
Tossing my hat in the ring: Any time I have deep struck/infiltrated with any necron unit, I have found that the benefit I gain from avoiding shooting to my Annihilation Barges and advancing troops let them get into the 24" killzone much more intact. I was criticized pretty heavily earlier when the Dex came out by using Lychguard with either a Ghostwalk-tek or Obyron on BoLS and Warseer. Despite my claims that they worked in my games very effectively, I just couldn't portray that to the internet community, so I stopped, and just kept playing. Occasionally I posted a battle rep and people would respond positively.
I wish we could all be part of the same gaming group and see each other play, it would stop all of this snarkiness.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Uhm, "whirling your Gauss Flayer around" means 20-40 S4 shots in the enemy's face, not counting Overwatch.

That's not going to save them once they are in Base to Base, ie, in CC.

I agree, screw those 40 S4 shots. Who even needs those? I usually let my Necrons walk straight at the enemy 1'' away so he can charge me. YOLO.

Averaged it? You way overestimated it. Flamers aren't going to change much unless its a whole squad of them. The bog standard Tac squad has bolters and plasma/melta/missle or laz.

Template weapons = flame, small, big blast. All use templates.

What? Then where did the Overwatch shots come from? And Tactical Marines are charging FOs now? You're example was simply unrealistic.

*your. True though, valid point. Don't mind the Overwatch wound then. Add in the power weapon sergeant instead.

In your example, 65 points ate bullets (efficiently saving them from juicier targets), 39 points ate CC to take out 150+ tacticals, leaving the FOs very much in tact (13+ strong), very much still a player in the final turns, and very much still denying objectives. That's how its an effective use of points.

I cannot say how wrong this statement is. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG. I so often see people making such an argument and it's WRONG. This isn't how 40k works. This might work in WHFB and even then, it's debatable, but if you calculate points like that in 40k, you're dead wrong. If you outflank and attack the marines, then it's very likely that for the ENTIRE GAME, your FO did nothing but kill a single squad of tac that costs less.

I can't recall a situation where I've ever needed any unit in the entire game. Except troops I guess.

Wraiths to get rid of elite troops and can be everywhere anytime. AB to quickly kill opponents. Heavy Destroyers to get rid of that AV 14 / terminators.

What? Why? FOs eat IG up, whether it's popping Chims or slaying vets. They also are very capable against most GK except Purifiers. How can you make definitive statements like that when you've obviously never seen them fight?

Uhm sorry? FO enter the field, template, dead. Come on now. Paladins laugh at FO. Purifier laugh at FO. Land Raider laugh at FO. Psiflebot laughts at FO. Sigh. Have you ever played FO? (I can do that too.) Also: I have 14 FO I converted myself back in the days and occasionally (very rarely) field them in friendlies. They didn't do bad. Just....not good enough to justify their cost. Give them *something*. They had that cool USR in 5th. Or give them rending. Fearless. Anything.

I need to make that point though:

FO are not bad. The are pretty mediocre, tad lower. It's the comparison that matters and in comparison to the rest of the codex, they are trash. They can work, certainly, but in a competitive environment, they keep sitting on the shelf.

Uhm sorry? FO enter the field, template, dead. Come on now. Paladins laugh at FO. Purifier laugh at FO. Land Raider laugh at FO. Psiflebot laughts at FO. Sigh. Have you ever played FO? (I can do that too.) Also: I have 14 FO I converted myself back in the days and occasionally (very rarely) field them in friendlies. They didn't do bad. Just....not good enough to justify their cost. Give them *something*. They had that cool USR in 5th. Or give them rending. Fearless. Anything.

Not to be a negative nancy on your point but I'm pretty sure those squads laugh at almost everything in 40k. A Land Raider? Umm not to much tougher in the game except maybe a third edition monolith. Just saying.

Moving passed this flayed one argument, how about them tomb blades? I like bear bones with guass blasters although I have been thinking about the particle beamers for dual troop killing / light vehicle popping.

 Dumah12 wrote:

Uhm sorry? FO enter the field, template, dead. Come on now. Paladins laugh at FO. Purifier laugh at FO. Land Raider laugh at FO. Psiflebot laughts at FO. Sigh. Have you ever played FO? (I can do that too.) Also: I have 14 FO I converted myself back in the days and occasionally (very rarely) field them in friendlies. They didn't do bad. Just....not good enough to justify their cost. Give them *something*. They had that cool USR in 5th. Or give them rending. Fearless. Anything.

Not to be a negative nancy on your point but I'm pretty sure those squads laugh at almost everything in 40k. A Land Raider? Umm not to much tougher in the game except maybe a third edition monolith. Just saying.

Moving passed this flayed one argument, how about them tomb blades? I like bear bones with guass blasters although I have been thinking about the particle beamers for dual troop killing / light vehicle popping.

I've considered them and in 5th I found no use for them. In 6th I think I will get 5 as an additional choice for fire support or D. Lord escort, however having a max squad of five is an issue for me. I would run them with the stealth and improved save, but the tesla weapons are just so goodi think it is better than the blast. But maybe bring 2 of 1 and 3 of the other would alsobe good depending on your meta.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

A couple of things people tend to overlook/not consider until they've seen them in action quit a few times:

1.) BSS (from Imo) will effect your opponents deployment even when you have no intention of using them as such. I've seen opponents make all sorts of silly errors trying to protect/minimize the effects of BSS.

2.) They aren't fearless (which is definitely their Achilles, no argument there) , but they do have LD 10. Against shooting that tends to be all you need. And really, in a large squad, against assaults its generally all you need as well. A group of 20 FOs could lose 5 models against a MEQ opponent, will strike back and kill about 4, and then have to pass a 9 or under to not break (83.3%). Of course if the DLord is there you have a greater margin of error to deal with.

3.) Point for point, provided they don't break after the first round, FOs will kill TH/SS termies. Most of the Crons CC options aren't particular great against TH/SS, FOs actually are, winning about 70% of the time, and when they do win (ie, didn't break) they generally win big (only losing a few bases).

4.) They're a little faster then people think, because of the mechanics of RP. This has been reduced a bit because of the closest to closest mechanics of 6th edition, but still will regularly by you an inch or so which can really throw off your opponent if they aren't thinking about it.

5.) Be a non conformist and buck the interweb hive mind!

6.) They crush transports in CC. You need about 7 bases to kill any AV10 rear vehicle (on average), 10 for a multi-assault.

7.) If you have a small squad, or a squad that has been whittled down, don't be afraid to throw them at a shooting based Naught. They won't hurt it, but they will lock it down, and it won't hurt them either (your typical shooty dread averages about half a FO base/turn in CC).

Few things about the points you've pointed out;

1) Requires your opponent to be poor and make mistakes, whether or not your opponent makes an error shouldn't be in the equation when determining if a unit is good/effective, you should assume knowledgeable opponents.

2) Lack of Fearless is huge, a dedicated CC unit should never be getting swept if it is at full strength, which is a possibility with flayed ones. The point about the D.Lord is true but the D.Lord can make any unit effective in CC even warriors as he inflicts quite a few casualties on his own.

3) This is a good point that I had not thought of and doing the math myself confirms that point for point Flayed ones win CC with terminators.

4) This is a moot point, its the same for almost every necron unit, and again requires a poor opponent in order to take advantage of it. But ya they do get a tiny amount of extra movement if they are taking fire on their way up.

5) ...

6) I actually think they are the worst unit in the codex at destroying transports. So to say they "crush" transports is a bit of an over statement and by that statement then all necron units crush transports or better and then this isn't a selling point for flayed ones. Going through the codex the better units at destroying transports are; warriors, immortals, lytchguard, praetorians, Ctan, stalker, wraiths, scarabs, tomb blades, destroyers, doomsday arc, A.barge, monolith, doom scythe, spyders. That leaves deathmarks and tesla immortals as the 2 units left potentially worse than flayed ones at popping transports though I didn't do the math on them I am just assuming due to the low number of shots they are worse.

7) First off, now I might be wrong about this but its what I remember from the rulebook, is that you can't assault a vehicle that you cannot hurt.

So most of what you say doesn't really add much to the appeal of flayed ones but I will give you the terminator point. They do seem effective against them, but it requires a similar investment in them and if your opponent isn't running terminators then you've spent alot of points to do something worse than something else you could have had.

Oh and peoples fear of deepstriking isn't simply that you get shot first but that by the nature of deepstriking your exposed in the open and clumped together ready to get pie plated. And since flayed ones appear to need decent numbers to be effective thats alot of hits from a pie plate, most of which will bypass your armour.

That's would be nice if you could but it says the entire squad must exchange guns.

Yeah I have 3 that I use but they really don't have enough fire power to really hurt stuff I think. But they are pretty cheap at 20 points and its nice to grab line breaker late game because of the jet bike turbo boost.

 Dumah12 wrote:
That's would be nice if you could but it says the entire squad must exchange guns.

Yeah I have 3 that I use but they really don't have enough fire power to really hurt stuff I think. But they are pretty cheap at 20 points and its nice to grab line breaker late game because of the jet bike turbo boost.

Well that makes them even more unappealing. I thought they could vary their equipment. So perhaps the tesla version is just better, as it is twin linked and has the potential for 6 shots each model with twin linked, as opposed to more expensive blasts that might drift and will only average 2 maybe three models hit.

I don't know if *any* of the upgrades are worth it on the tomb blades. If you keep them with Tesla, its twin-linked. Giving them BS 5 will, if you fired 30 times at something, will net you only an extra 1.49 hits. 30 shots is the amount of fire your 5 man unit can put out in 6 turns. That means for an entire game, 25pts netted you 1.49 hits. Leave the nebuloscope at home. Both of the other upgrades attempt to push an affordable, fast and killy unit into an expensive, fast and killy unit that is slightly more survivable. Zahndrek pays 5pts for the ability to give a unit stealth every turn. Don't pay 50pts to upgrade these guys with it.
The increased armor save, I can't really comment on. Well, maybe I can. Would you pay 10 points to upgrade a Necron Warrior to have one better armor save and a tesla gun? You wouldn't? Why not? Oh, because it only costs 4pts to do that, not 10.
So in short, don't get trapped by this unit. It suffers by having to compete in the best slot for Necrons already, don't make it something its not. Keep em cheap and play to their strengths, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Tomb Blades area surprisingly good distraction unit that is super fast which helps contest objectives and get line breaker. I normally run them with Gauss Blasters to take pot shots at tanks or +4 armor save dudes that are out of cover. Tesla can be good if you wish to stay at 24'' and we know that TL means more chances to roll a 6.
The Particle beamers are brutal against IG/DE/Eldar command units as you will be insta killing them, if they fail their saves. You can use Nights Scythes to destroy/wreak a transport , then drop 5 blasts on the unit which should be close together.

Tactics wise, don't rush with them, keep them out of LOS of most of your opponents army, which is easy with turbo boost. They generally don't attract much fire if your running Wraiths/Destroyers/Scarabs. They can be in position to add weight of fire to a Night Scythe army.
Tomb Blades are a late game unit.

Are they worth the cost? If you give them no upgrades they are really cheap for a Jetbike, in 6th Edition they are one of the best unit types. I wouldn't give them the BS5, Stealth or the increased amour save, its too many points spent on a flanking unit.

The main issue is they are in the Fast Attack slot, with the Necrons best units. Wraiths/Destroyers/Scarabs are incredibly good and form the Back Bone to many Necron lists. Destroyer Wing makes Marines cry blood, Scarab farm melts mech lists and can tarpit/crush units under weight of attacks. Wraith wing soaks up fire like no body's business and excel at wiping out shooty infantry and if the dice are good, CC units even terminators.

Was does Tomb Blade wing do? TB are basically a Immortals gun on a mobile platform, T+1 and -1Sv. Thats Ok but not something to build a list around.
On the scouring FA are scoring so TB become fantastic units to get late game objectives

Hey guys I dont know where to post this. Thought maybe 40k lists but figured it might just piss people off.
I have been a DE player for years. Have 5000-6000+ pts. and need a break. So I went out and bought some necrons. Need some advice going forward.

Here is what I have:

3 unmade fliers
4 squads of unmade immortals

What should I buy without buying and wasting money on BS.

Thinking getting 3 annihilation barges
12 wraiths
overlords
crypteks
etc. whats your opinion.

That about covers it. The Barges are key, Wraiths are great. Flyers are great. Fill out with troops. You're good to go. You'll eventually try out all sorts of things and probably buy according to your play style. All-in-all, we have a great book and you'll find that most things are acceptable.